The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant - Mission vs. Ego: The Dangers of Narcissistic Leadership

Episode Date: April 2, 2026

This week, Brené and Adam are live at SXSW! They explore why so many people are vulnerable to narcissistic leaders. The conversation covers the conditions that breed narcissistic leadership, the roles of shame and fear, and how to survive a narcissistic boss, and what it means to lead with mission over ego. You can find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 0:00 - Introduction 3:14 - Why People Are Vulnerable to Narcissistic Leaders 12:21 - Shame-Based Fear 18:04 - Do We Think About Emotions Wrong? 19:21 - Undue Credit and the Narcissistic Leader 26:00 - Mission Over Ego 29:52 - How to Manage a Narcissistic Boss 39:18 - Anxiety as a Path to Narcissism 47:45 - Judging Impairs Judgement 1:02:20 - Closing Show Notes: Adam Grant, Why We Fall for Narcissistic Leaders, Starting in Grade School, NYT 2025. O'Reilly et al. 2001 When 'Me' Trumps 'We': Narcissistic Leaders and the Cultures They Create, 2021. Brené Brown, "Shame shields" in The Dare to Lead Glossary: Key Language skills, tools, and practices. (pg. 15-16) Bagozzi et al. 2003 (A study on cross-cultural differences in reaction to shame) Brené Brown, Dan Pink on The Power of Regret, Dare to Lead, 2022 We're The Millers (Trailer) 2013, Awkward Roadtrip Moments: No Ragrets George Saunders, "Failures of Kindness", Convocation Speech, 2013 Emily Grijalva et al. 2020 (A study of the impact of narcissim on NBA team performance) How Brené Brown and Lumen CEO Kate Johnson Sparked This Telecom Comeback, WSJ Leadership Institute, 2025 (11:25) Adam Grant, Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT My response to Adam Grant’s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You're Oprah, ‘Be Yourself’ Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016 Watts et al, 2014 (A study of grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism in U.S. Presidents) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's less than the price of a cup of coffee per month. That's Hostinger.com slash C-shop, promo code C-shop for an extra 20% off. Welcome to The Curiosity Shop. A show from the Fox Media Podcast Network. This episode was filmed live in Austin, Texas at South by Southwest on March 15th. Let's jump in. How's it going? Okay, y'all want to hear something fun?

This is not really a talk. See, you all are going to be really disappointed. Yeah, yeah. This isn't really a talk. We're actually officially announcing a new podcast right now. Yes. Can't believe we're doing a podcast together. I know.

It's crazy. Hashtag same. I'm excited. The excitement is mutual. But I feel like it's a little unfair because we're on your home court here in Texas. Let's go. Where are my longhorns? Let's go.

Not to get competitive. No, just to win. Okay. We have an interesting conversation for you today. We're going to talk about. why we are so vulnerable to narcissistic leaders. Wait, we? We? I don't follow a narcissist, do you? No, but I think the collective we. Like, I think people in general can, we can be somewhat vulnerable to it because it, when we're scared and uncertain, the traits that ladder up to that,

kind of that type of leadership can at first blush seem comforting before they turn into catastrophic. But they can seem, I think at first blush. So you wrote an op-ed. Tell us about your op-ed. I thought it was really interesting. Oh, well, thank you. I have to think through whether I agree with everything I wrote in or not. But the place I started was, I was thinking about Greek mythology. And we all know the myth of narcissus who falls in love with his own image, and then he withers away. And I was just struck by the fact that that was what happened in ancient Greece, but in modern America, he ends up, and he sort of lands in the corner office and maybe occasionally even in the Oval Office. Every now and then. And there's something wrong with that picture.

And I wanted to try to understand it, and you have been studying this your whole career. Well, I have a, well, one thing I want to say, and this is really important for folks watching or listening, for those of you in the room, I'm a social worker, and this is where it gets really important to say this out loud. I'm a social worker, Adam's a psychologist. We are not talking about diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. We're talking about patterns that we've observed in leadership that share some things in common. that very much align with some of the traits that we can see in narcissism. So I want to be really careful about that because we're not talking to, we're not, neither one of us are clinicians. So we're not talking about the clinical disorder. We're talking about a pattern of leadership. When we started throwing around the word, oh, she's such a narcissist, he's a narcissist.

Every podcast was, you know, were you raised by, you know, a narcissist? And it made me, it made me nuts because when I looked at it through the lens, of vulnerability and what I study, what I saw or what I still see is those traits are, what I would say, are the shame-based fear of being ordinary. So I have to say it again. I like that. Someone's taking my job here. Thank you for that. You can come up with this. Yeah, Bernan, can you say that again? Yeah. That was a really insightful observation, and I want to hear it twice so it lands. we're taking you everywhere we go out there.

Through a vulnerability lens, I think narcissism is the shame-based fear of being ordinary. And what's interesting and scary about that that I want to get into with you is an actually psychoanalytic clinical work, there's a thing called when they write and people theorize around narcissism, the terror of ordinary,

a sheer terror of being ordinary. How does that fit? Just for those of you who don't know our work well, we spend 90% of our time in organizations working with C-sweets and senior leaders, so we see a lot of firsthand kind of leadership traits. So how does that fear being ordinary fit for what you see? Well, first of all, Brene, everyone knows your work well.

That's not true. No explainer needed. But to weigh in on your question, I think when you're talking about the shame-based fear of being ordinary, I would say also of appearing ordinary, because it's image, not just ego. Wait, wait, wait. It's not just the fear of being ordinary. It's the fear of appearing ordinary because it's not just ego, which is the fear of being ordinary. It's image.

I don't want other people to think that I'm not special. Yeah, that's huge. I'm going to miss the validation then, and I'm going to miss out in the sense of superiority that I want that I seek through claiming power and seizing status. So when you describe that, I start thinking about a whole body research

in psychology on narcissism as part of the heart of bullying. And I think everybody, how many people were bullied in the audience growing up? Yeah. I mean, no one cheers for that, by the way. No. You ask other questions, people are like,

whoo, yeah, me. How many people are bullied? It gets really quick. quiet, I guess it was. I was. And I remember my mom saying, you know, they just feel bad about themselves and they're trying to feel better about themselves by putting you down. And I got to college, I started studying psychology. I dove into some of the research on that. And I'm sorry, mom, but you were wrong. It turns out that narcissists do not suffer from low self-esteem. They suffer from high but unstable self-esteem. They have an inflated view of how

great they are, but it's fragile. It's like a balloon that could puncture at any slight. And I think that that seems really, that seems so complimentary to the shame-based fear of being ordinary. I have this, this desire to see myself as great and important and unique, but maybe I know deep down that I'm not and I'm extra sensitive to any signal that calls into question that fragile view of myself. Discuss, please. Yeah, I'm taking a back because I don't know what mental picture you have in your head. I have several political pictures in my head.

I have a full-on freaking Mount Rushmore of narcissistic leadership in my head. One thing I would say is I wrote this note in preparing for today. While clinicians might ask, does this meet the criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder? I think you and I, check this out, yes or no, you and I are saying, does this pattern of leadership reliably corrode trust, accountability, and shared reality inside of a system? Like, that's what we're looking for in the leadership world, right? So here are the things I was thinking that I want to ask you about. So when I think about the leaders that I've worked with are the leadership I've seen,

when I think about this kind of narcissistic trait, The first thing I think about is structural impact. Trust erosion, the things, the kind of the structures that we can depend on are broken down, even purposefully. And then there's really weird incentives. Like the incentives change from goodness to like egomaniacal incentives. What do you see? Like what does the research say? Or what do you see when you write about it?

I think that that aligns pretty well with the evidence I've read. So narcissistic leadership seems to have three predictable consequences. One is that leaders put their ego above the mission. And that means people redirect their effort away from how do I contribute productively and effectively and toward what is going to please the boss. And so you see a lot of brown-nosing, a lot of kissing up, also a lot of backstabbing of people who might threaten my standing with the boss. And I think that goes to the second pattern, which is narcissists encourage cut-throat cultures.

O'Reilly and Chapman, among others, who've studied this. And what they show is basically that narcissists want to do whatever they can to feel special. And that includes cutting corners. And they end up normalizing that behavior at lower levels of the organization. And then the third piece is they end up really undermining collaboration and cooperation. And I think that's the trust piece you were talking about. For sure. And it's, you know, it's not to say that there aren't times when narcissists succeed.

But I think that they often succeed in spite of their self-love and egos, not because of it. Yeah, because when I think about the shame-based fear, how many of us are good in shame? Like zero. Like, you know, like I'm thinking about Heartling Linda Hartlein's research on, and the Stone Center at Wellesley did this incredible research on shame and that how we defend against it we move toward by people pleasing

we move against by using shame and violence to combat shame we don't make good choices when we're in shame you know and so that comes to this relational patterns can I see a question about that I've always wondered there's a paper that Rick Bogosie published a while back

looking at cross-cultural differences in reaction to shame. And the finding that always stuck out at me was that in the Philippines, salespeople performed better after they felt shame. And he was suggesting that, if I remember correctly, in a collectivistic culture, that people were able to harness shame to repair as opposed to fight or flight. And that never sat right with me. And I wondered if you could explain it or help me make sense of it.

Can we ever derive benefits from shame? So from an evolutionary biological perspective, shame worked when you were a danger to a collective society. When you kept making a mistake that put us in danger, we would just shun or shame you until basically you died because you depended on the community to live, right? today it's just too far blunt of an instrument to work because shame is the threat or belief that we're unlovable and unworthy of connection with other people, unworthy of belonging.

And it moves this into some very, how many of you, let me just see, like a show of hands, how many of you are parents? How many of you had some of your worst parenting moments when you were in your own shame? And you just responded, you acted out. You know, it's like we're not good from that place. One thing is we're not, when shame happens, it's such a primitive emotion that it hijacks the limbic system. And it's not like we're in the prefrontal cortex where we can think through rationalize and regulate. We are in fight, flight, and parasympathetically freeze.

So the cross-culture studies on shame are so important. I don't envy any researcher taking that on for a very interesting reason. English is the only language that we know of in the world where there's a singular word for shame. Really? Yeah, because if you go into French or you go into Spanish, you go into any other language, there are multiple words that are very nuanced. And I'll tell you why we were, how many of you are Spanish speaking in here or speak Spanish? So when we were translating the curriculum, it took two years because it was an ongoing, we had, we had native Spanish speakers from four different countries working on the translation. And they could not agree. First,

they said, they couldn't agree. They were like, no, no, no. So what did say shame in Spanish? Yeah, no, they're like, they're like, it's because it's the word for sin. They're like, no, no, no. But it ended up being beda winza, which we use for embarrassment because the context is different. So like if I fall over and I'm, oh, then go berwinza, like I'm embarrassed. But if I walk down the stairs and my mom or grandmother look at me and go, no, ten in bedawinsa, because I have on a short skirt, that goes right into the shame category. Right?

And so I think cross-cultural studies of shame are difficult because the language is very hard. Okay, light bulb moment. Okay, great. So I just, as you're describing the evolutionary perspective, I just realized what never landed for me before in that study, which is, if I remember correctly, they were studying anticipated shame. And that was where they found a function, that worrying that you were going to be unlikable or unlovable with your colleagues was enough to prevent you,

from making a big mistake. And I can see that being more adaptive. Well, that's different. But anybody raised in a faith community that used that to keep people in line would tell you that that does not work so well. That ends up with a lot of like God scars or whatever kind of scars. I mean, like, that is shame is a form of social control. I don't think anyone argues about its short-term efficacy in a sales call room.

which is the research here. I'm familiar with the research. The long-term result of that is a very different story. So it's like fear in that way. It's like fear in that way. You can shame me into following cultural or community norms, but the impact of that is lifelong. Support for this show comes from Canva.

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Okay, before we go back to narcissism, this is the curiosity shop, so I'm allowed to explore any curiosity I have. Any go. Okay, so I read this paper years ago. that argued that we think about emotions wrong. And it's exactly on this point. I think most of us assume that emotions are supposed to drive behavior, right?

So I feel guilt, I repair. I feel gratitude. I show appreciation. The argument was that most emotions don't actually exist to drive action. They exist so that we can learn the consequences of our action and then anticipate what we need to do differently next time.

And I think this was especially for negative emotions. So the thought was, like, regret isn't supposed to change your behavior today. It's supposed to teach you about the systematic mistake you're making in your decisions. So you're going to learn to avoid that the next five times you're in a similar situation. And it really shifted my thinking a little bit and led me to wonder if most of the way that we deal with emotion in terms of processing, what does this mean for what I do today, is actually short-sighted. And if we should be asking more of, okay, emotions are teachable moments. Is regret a masterclass in making better decisions? Is guilt a whole tutorial in learning how to write wrongs or avoid committing them in the first place?

Is embarrassment, a cue that I need to be a little bit more attuned to how other people perceive me? And I'd just be so curious to hear your take on our emotions anticipatory tools as opposed to immediate action causes. I know you're going to say they're both. They're both. Damn it! Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that, you know, it's, I think it was an Atlas of the Heart. Dan Pink and I align on regret as a very useful emotion. I think regret is, you know, I always think about, what was the movie with Jennifer

Aniston and Jason Sudecass? We are the Millers. Yeah, and the daughter brings home this guy and he's got a tattoo. and it says no regrets and it's misspelled. And Jason Sudecis is like, no regrets? He's like, no, sir. And he's like, not one. He goes, no, sir.

And Jason Sudecasses goes, not even a single letter. And so I don't, I always write that I think regret is a tough but fair teacher. Yeah. So I do think in some ways it's retrospective about, I mean, I think regrets a function of empathy. For me, often, it's like, wow. I'm going to another quote. I think it was George Saunders that gave the commencement dress

that said the things he regretted most in his life were failures of kindness. You know, and so I think they can be retrospective. I think they can be predictive in a way. Like, you know, like I always tell you, like I have a spighty sense that's probably a psychology person. would probably say strong pattern recognition and tuition. But I think they can be reflective, predictive, and just also in the moment.

I like it. Okay, take us back to narcissism. Okay, what about this? This is like how narcissism or traits of that can affect relationships. I was very freaked out when I read this in the research. Taking undue credit is related to. narcissistic leadership patterns. Do you think that's true? Okay. So when I was studying givers and takers, I was confronted with the question of, okay, we all would prefer to be surrounded by

generous than selfish people. But there must be some value of the selfish people. Otherwise, they wouldn't exist. And so I started combing through the research to try to figure out, okay, like what a givers take and what a takers give? And the only thing that I could find out of that was givers really love to give credit and take responsibility. And takers are really good at taking credit, but they also give something. Blame.

The takers, the givers. No, I mean, I think that a huge part of narcissism is credit-hugging. or it's a major consequence of narcissism anyway because it's part of how you show that you're not ordinary. I think the NBA data on this are so striking. There's a study where Emily Griehlva and colleagues they actually code NBA basketball players tweets on a narcissism scale.

And I realize this may be a world in which the base rate of narcissism is somewhat higher than the average in the population at large. But you can still see variations, right? There are some players who tweet and say, things like, you know, tough game yesterday, I really let the team down. And others who, this was an actual quote, who post a shirtless photo themselves that says under it with a caption, when I look at myself in the mirror, all I see staring back is greatness.

Me too. So, I mean, there's the credit taking, right? The question is, what does that mean for the team? Well, the higher the average narcissism level on your team, the more stagnant your team's performances over the course of the season. Because narcissists are hogging the ball. They're hogging the glory. They're taking the credit. They undermine collaboration, as we were talking about earlier. And that is especially true if the point guard is a narcissist. Having a self-centered person, move the ball up the court, and control the offense is deadly to a team's ability to become

more than the sum of their parts. And I think the credit-taking dynamic is probably part of that. Damn. I know how I'm going to be thinking about the final four. Okay. All right. Wait, no, no. Frana, I have a question for you on this. So have you, I mean, it's really easy to see these patterns from a distance.

It's hard to deal with these patterns when you confront them on a daily basis. You spend a lot of time coming into organizations and trying to cure them of these sorts of. I don't know if I cure them. Trying to heal them. Trying to improve the way that they work together. And maybe, maybe, I don't want to say. squash egos, but maybe lower the ego or quiet the ego a little bit of leaders. How do you think about dealing with a narcissist when you see these tendencies? You know, I'm hesitant to say the truth.

Always a good place to start. Yeah. What I'm about to say is not going to be 100% candid, but bear with me. No, I'm going to say, no, no, what I'm going to say is when I say that, I'm going to say 100% the truth and it could. get me in a shit ton of trouble is that's usually what I mean. You know, when we go in and do Dear to Lead Work, we say yes to those kind of embedded interventions where I'm in there doing work with leaders about 30% of the time. The others are 70% or no. And the first thing I, and we go through very rigorous assessments where I interview people in the C-suite, I interview senior leaders, and I interview people with the least power and proximity to power. And so,

So the thing that I'm looking for, and it's probably a little bit of like creaming the crop for the intervention. Well, it is definitely creaming the crop for the intervention. Let me just be straight. That I am looking for in the C-suite specifically leaders who want to win more than they want to be right. So if I'm working with a CEO or senior leaders who care more about winning and doing what's right for the organization than they do protecting a self-image, then I'm all in.

And in fact, I just did an interview with the Wall Street Journal when I was with Kate Johnson at Lumen. And we've been together, working together for maybe three years. And the Wall Street Journal guy said, to what do you attribute some of this transformative success? And I just looked at Kate and said, she wanted to win more than she wanted to be right. And he said, what does that look like? And I said, showing up at everything we did, leading the way, modeling vulnerability, modeling empathy, modeling rethinking, modeling rethinking, modeling, modeling learning and unlearning when it was super uncomfortable, when she knew it could come up on an investor call,

like really just saying, I care more about getting it right than I do about being right. And that, I can't think of a better way to demonstrate mission over ego than that. The mission over ego thing is so interesting. It takes me immediately to an experience I had. Have you ever done work with St. Jude's? No. About 10 years ago.

I went to go do work with St. Jude's, and I was going to meet with the leaders, and they said, do you want to get here an hour early to go to a tour of the hospital? And I said, oh, I'd love it. And so I got there, and I got on the elevator to go to the second floor where I was meeting the docent who was going to give me the interview. And when I stepped on the elevator, the only other person on the elevator was a woman in her kind of mid-60s, and she was pushing a cart of desserts. And I said, and I said, you know, hi, how you doing? She goes good. And I said, what do you do at St. and she said, I cure cancer. And I said, I'm sorry?

And she said, I cure cancer. Families, patients, physicians, nurses, staff don't eat. We can't cure cancer. Yeah, she said, I cure cancer. I got up to this, and I was like, hell yeah, you do. I was like, right, that makes sense. I get up to the second floor, and I meet the docent, and we're just starting to walk on the tour.

And I said, how long have you been volunteering for St. Jude's? And she said, God, I think I've been curing cancer for about 18 months. And it made me realize that that is a culture where the oncologists are not taking credit for curing cancer, that everyone is taking credit and everyone that is sharing credit. And that takes a very special kind of deep humility and curiosity in leadership. Yeah. That I would say is the opposite of narcissistic leader trends. Okay.

So when you confront the opposite, What do you do? You know exactly what I do. I dig in and figure out how it got there. Who brought it in? How did they build it? How do they operationalize it? How do they?

I'm curious about you can have a, I've met singular leaders that are driven by courage and humility that cannot scale that across their organization. They can't even get it in their own teams. So when I see that, I'm curious about where that started and how it was built. and how it's operationalized every day at every level. Okay, so if I am, if I'm your boss,

because one thing that's really striking to me is, when we go into organizations, we have very little to lose because we're outsiders. Right. We're sort of brought in to hold up a mirror. And worst case scenario, people say, we don't like the reflection, go home. I get that a lot.

But I imagine there are a lot of people with us today who might have to deal with a narcissistic colleague or a narcissistic boss or a narcissistic senior executive. And I guess the question is, what do you say to that person? How do you manage that dynamic when you're not in a position of freedom or power? Yeah, because I have a lot of walk away stuff and so power. I personally think that it's really important to have a mentor in someone in the organization that you trust that knows that person that has more proximity to power that can kind of be a good mentor for you. But I also think those relationships are normally abusive and you should have a plan B. Yeah, there have been many times where I couldn't walk out of a job because I needed

to, you know, pay my rent, you know, keep my insurance for my kids. And so, you know, when people said, well, you should just leave, then they're all like, okay. But I think you should start developing a plan B. I think those behaviors are very hard to change. So what I would say is, you know, this is the old union steward in me, document, use a playback as a tool. So like, let's say you're the boss and you say to me, I need you to do this, this, and that. And then I would say, can I play back for you what you're wanting me to do?

You need me to prioritize this. This is due on Wednesday. And this is more important than this. Is that correct? And they, and I would probably do the playback in writing, hey, thanks for the time today. I just want to send an email real quick to play back what you're expecting for me.

So that's another form of document. Like, in God we trust, everyone else bring data. You know, like, so I think that's part of it. The other thing is I find engaging to be, especially if there's a power over situation, I find engaging with those folks to be somewhat dangerous. Like, I would not, I would try as much as I could not. to engage. What about you? What about me? Well, what would you tell these folks? You know,

I had a narcissistic boss early in my career, actually, and to your earlier point, not diagnosed with a personality disorder, just showing normal narcissism signs, which, you know, involve, like, sort of airing your grievances like every day as festivists, if we have any Seinfeld fans in the room, showing lots of entitlement, believing that you deserve special treatment, lacking empathy for other people, and not ever owning the consequences of your decisions. I had a boss like that, and a bunch of my colleagues were being mistreated, and I basically spent a whole summer afraid to speak up. And finally, I just, I couldn't take being such a coward anymore. more. And I walked into her office and I said, I think this is, you know, this is really

unfortunate the way that people are being forced to work overtime without pay, the way that their, you know, their concerns are not being heard. And I'm really worried that we're going to lose them and we can't afford to. They're really valuable. And I got dragged by my ear down the hall into the women's restroom, which is the only room on our floor with no windows. and she said to me, if you ever speak up out of turn again, you'll be fired along with your coworkers. And that was why I became an organizational psychologist. I did not know that.

I do not ever want another person to have power over me again. Academic tenure sounds really safe right now. But one of the things I had to do then was I had to keep working with her. And I will tell you, the single most helpful thing that I did was having conversations with her that were not about work where she was not interested where she didn't have to prove that she was special and extraordinary

and I found out that she loved Survivor and I was watching Survivor and within a few weeks I was on her good side again just from talking about a TV show that was a common interest and I think that got me through it and I wrote down

after I finished that job I will never ever work in a situation again where someone who believes that where somebody who puts herself above the organization and above the team has the power to ruin my day. Never again. So yeah, so now I write books and talk and hope that other people can use these ideas.

Yeah, I just want to have, I feel like this ethical obligation to pause us right now like in the, you know, normally it would just be you and me talking, but in the room, just to say that I want to, like, first of all, I'm really, I'm really sorry that happened. Oh, thank you. No, I am. I'm over it now.

No, but I am. Sorry that happened because it represents something that I'm sure a lot of us have done. I also just want to acknowledge the fucking emotional labor of having to find what she likes that you can both talk about and having to, you know, like, I don't know if y'all are familiar with, like, the eggshell thing, like walking on eggshells. and how traumatic that is, for those of us grew up in houses where you had to kind of walk on eggshells sometimes because you couldn't predict erratic behavior. And then, like, having to talk, like, that's not free for people that have to do that.

And, like, just to get very, and this is going to be opinion, but, like, the closer you are away from what power looks like in your organization in terms of gender and race and ethnicity and age, the heavier that load is to pick up. and to have to carry around. Like, that is not free. Like, if you're like, good morning, Adam Grant, here's your $100 to spend for the day. In cognitive lift and emotional lift,

you could spend 70 of it if you were a generous employee on mission, but you will not have 70 of it to do that day if you're working. And so you're going to spend 6850, or 6899, trying to figure out what fun thing about Survivor, you could talk to her about.

And you're going to have a dollar oh one left to spend at work. And the hard thing is that the spend that we make, it's not like we walk through the back door at the end of our office day. And then the bank account was like, ching-ching, $100 to find the goggles and the shin guards and to see what's for dinner. And your mom lost her meds.

And no, you got like, you got 1450 left folks. You know, and so it's like, that's why I would say have a plan B and document because in the world today, in the U.S., I would say, we're looking at some of the consequences of this style of leadership. And, like, people are dying. So, like, I don't think these are easy behaviors to change. Like, I'm looking at the things I list at, like, taking undue credit, assigning undue blame, devaluing dissent. And then this was what I thought was interesting. In the research, they call them contextual amplifiers.

So what is the environment in which this thrives? Right? Uncertainty, depletion and exhaustion. This one freaked me out. Systems that reward spectacle and self-promotion. Mmm, it's like I'm in church. But the reason why I thought this was so huge is because as a leader in organization,

like I have a team in an organization, I can choose every day whether we build a culture that rewards spectacle. Like what I'm trying to tell my people right now is we've been grinding really hard for the launch of the podcast, but what I'm trying to like build into my team is this should,

never be normalized. We should not take our endorphins from grind. We should take our joy at work from groundedness, predictability and stability, not from grind. You know what I mean? Like, we will have to grind at times. Yes. But there's less glory in that than what we think. Do you know what mean? What do you think? I'm having a hard time disagreeing with that, which is a little disappointing given how often we are not on the same page. No, I think that's right. Sorry, what I should have said was, I agree, Renee. Well, good. I have a hard question for you. Oh, bring it. I was rereading the op-ed. It's in the New York Times. We'll link it in the show notes on the podcast. Oh, we're going to have show notes. Yeah, yeah. This is exciting. Paul.

Yeah, Paul's going to do it. Paul's going to do it. Where would you draw, and this is for my own personal interest. Where would you draw a line between, man, this is a narcissistic pattern of leadership behaviors versus self-involved or ambitious? Oh, that's a good question. That's a very good question. I think ambitious is easier to distinguish than self-involved. God, me too.

It's almost the outlier, right? Ambition. Yeah. Okay, so let's take ambitious off. Let's take... Oh, wait, you're taking... I was going to... Go, go, go, go.

Go, go. I know, I know, I know. The other two are more nuanced, don't you think? Like, those are really narcissistic trends versus these are, this person's just really self-involved. That's different, I think. Okay, so I think this is, it would be helpful maybe to get to the bottom of this by distinguishing between two flavors of narcissism, grandiose and vulnerable. One of them is named after your work.

I reject that claim, but go ahead. One of them is named in a way that will feel very familiar to you. I think when I, historically, when I've studied narcissistic leadership, I was thinking about the grandiose kind, the larger than life. I am the most important person in the room. It is all about me. That's the aspect of narcissism that Lyndon Johnson scored highest on when political scientists and historians rated the American presidents. It's sort of the Steve Jobs flavor as well. But we forget that there's a vulnerable variety as well, which is, it's more fear-driven and less ego-driven of, to go back to your point at the beginning,

it's not just, I'm afraid of seeming ordinary. It's a fear of being worse than ordinary, of being inferior. And it seems, from my read of the research, vulnerable narcissists are extremely self-involved, extremely self-involved. But they don't walk around thinking they're God's gift to humanity. They walk around thinking, oh no, oh no, everybody's judging me negatively. And I've got to bend over backward to please them and curry favor with them and convince them that, in fact, I'm worthy. And I think that that is a way of being self-involved that's different from kind of

the grandiosity that we've been critiquing today. Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, but I think as... It's still narcissism, though. But still is malignant in my mind. Yeah, it is. Okay, so let me try one other way to get it your question then, since you rejected that one just now. Next.

She was like, uh-uh, uh-uh, I saw it. You were like, no, I get it intellectually. I'm tracking research-wise. So bad. No, I would never put that label on it. I want more from you. No, I would say narcissism can still be malignant. Yeah, yeah.

No, I agree. Or grandiose. Okay, so I think here's maybe another crack at it, which is, there's a there's a whole body of evidence on how people become self-involved when they're anxious. So if you start to get stressed or nervous, you worry, you ruminate, your attention turns inward. That's true. And you need to self-protect. And that can be self-involved, but it's not narcissistic at all.

And in fact, you may be telling yourself a story that you're protecting other people through your anxiety and the concern that you're showing. And so I think you can get to self-involvement through other past than narcissism, and extreme anxiety might be one of them. Wow, that's, that's, okay, that's really interesting because I will say that when I am in peak eldest daughter anxiety, aren't those memes rude? Instagram's calling me out every third scroll. But can I just point out there's no love for the eldest son ever? We never even get mentioned. Yeah, but we get mentioned in the. My meme yesterday said, were you really a pleasure to have in class?

Or were you the oldest daughter with an undiagnosed anxiety disorder? I was like, fuck you, dude. I don't even know you. I'm looking for shoes on here. Like, so be ignored. I think we should take away your Instagram password. Yes, you should. If that's what you're being served. Go on.

I am. The next one was like, the oldest daughter could read a room before she could read a book. I'm like, okay. Like, hypervigilance has an upside. I always know what's going on. Next door, I can tell you if you need to know, I can keep us all safe. But I do think anxiety, I don't know. Would you say like the vulnerable, I'm not familiar as familiar with those constructs and the differences?

But it seems to me, through my lens, they're ultimately both about self-protection, right? Ego protection, whether it's because I'm not good enough or because I'm better than everyone else. But this is what I always say about that. When I was growing at my me-ma, my mom's mom, who lived in San Antonio, I would go stay at her house for a week and she would say, whatever you want to do, you can do. Like, we could do anything. And I was like, put-put-off on Monday. We're going to see PG movies on Tuesday Because I wasn't allowed to see a PG movie

Until I was 16 Yeah, she took me to, what was the name of that With Sally Fields and Bert Reynolds The race car? Smoky and the Bandit Yeah, I mean like we did all the bad things So she said, I'll take you anywhere, Bernay It's called me Sissy actually, I'll take you anyway

Anywhere you want to go Sissy But not anywhere we have to stand in one place for too long And as a child you didn't understand and like, how standing in one place could be worse than walking. But at my age, I get it now. I can't stand in one place for too long. But I often think about, people always used to ask me, so is the opposite of, I'm not enough, I'm better than everyone?

And I said, that's the pain of standing in the exact same place for too long. Like, I'm better than anyone, and I'm better. not enough, two sides of the exact same coin. It's judgment. It lacks complete self-compassion. It lacks grace for yourself. So now I'm like, oh, that's why Ma Ma's legs hurt when she stood in one place for too long. We try to jump out of I'm not good enough, which is that vulnerable narcissism to I'm better than everyone else, which is the grandiosity. Same thing. It's a place of like self-protection and woundedness. I want to pick up on this theme of judgment, which I think is so interesting.

I think that people are judgmental because they're trying to be discerning. And what they don't realize is that judging actually impairs judgment. Wait a minute. I'm going to disagree. Hold on. I feel it coming. Oh, good. Wait. No, wait. Judgment? Say that first. Judging impairs judgment. So let me explain what I mean by that. Okay. So the moment that I judge you, I am no longer capable of,

looking at you through an even close to neutral lens. Right? I've already predetermined what you're like. I have identified a list of flaws or shortcomings of yours. And at that point, I can't see you accurately. I can't see you clearly anymore. And so I've judged you instead of actually being an accurate judge of you. But what if I'm right?

Then you are too invested in being right. I'm asking for a friend. Yeah. What if my judgment is spot on? Well, we were taking it. about this, but we didn't talk about it. Oh, that's right, because you said save it for the podcast, yeah. Yeah.

So, okay, so I think that sometimes you have, you have strong reactions. Oh, shit, you mean this conversation. Yeah, do you want to have this conversation? Sometimes you have strong reactions to people you've just met. Is that a fair statement? Especially if they're influential. I don't like fancy people. When I meet people that are either, you know, celebrity, power, influence.

I'm going to be suspect. And I understand this suspicion. But if you've already then sorted them into a box and said, okay, they must be narcissists. No, I don't say that. I don't say that. What do you say? They're dodgy as fuck, man.

That's different. I would never label someone as a social worker. I don't believe in pathologizing. I would just say you're dodgy and no. All right. So, but then, then anything else you see them do is going to be filtered through that lens and you become, it's confirmation bias. It's a self-flowing prophecy, right? Yes, I knew you're going to go right into confirmation bias. Adam, confirmation bias, grant. Go ahead. And you're doing it right now. I love it. It's a minor miracle that, uh, that we're still talking, isn't it? I, you know, it's, no, what's interesting actually is, I think it's, I wonder how much of it is confirmation bias and how much of it is that, maybe, be the evil cousin of confirmation bias, which is desirability bias. Desireability bias. You know this one. So do you all know the distinction between the two, confirmation and desirability bias?

Okay, here, this is going to be a 30-second crash course. You ready? It's powerful. Confirmation bias is, I see what I expect to see. Desirability bias is I see what I want to see. And I wonder what worldview leads you to want people who are powerful to be dodgy. Okay, so Do you want that? I guess is the first question. I don't want that, but let's let's be,

okay, if we're going to go here, let's go back to when you and I were together at a conference. Uh-oh. And I said, I'm waiting for someone to walk with me to this thing. And you said, you know, you don't like to go by yourself or what?

And you're a friendly question. And I said, I don't know, it's weird when I go by myself. And you said, why? And I said, because I'm going to get stopped many times, and especially because this is a conference where there was a lot of powerful people, and they will unload on me, demand things from me, and ask me, and I don't know them, but they'll just be like, you know, and you're like, really? Because we do the same thing, and that never happens to you. And I said, why don't you walk with me? By the time we got there, he was like, hell, no.

Why are these people stopping you? What is going on here? So I think it's not desirability or confirmation bias. It's self-protection because I don't think people know that I'm super introverted. And if you stop me and you tell me really hard and heavy things, and if anyone in here did it, it would probably be. be okay. It could be maybe awkward. Well, not everyone, but most people.

Yeah, yeah. But like, but when, but when it's an influential or famous person, they'll say, can I get your cell phone number? I'd love to talk to you about this. You know, and I'm like, I don't have a cell phone. I mean, I'm a terrible liar. I'm like, they're like, email, and I'm like, I don't email. Let me give you, let me, let me, I mean. Here's my fax number. Yeah, yeah, fax me. Um, fax you. Um, fax you. Um, So I think it's self-protective, but it's also, it's like I see dead people, like that movie. Like, I-sing-sets. Yeah, yeah.

Spoiler alert. Yes. I see how people sometimes with influence have entitlement and are open to collecting people like me, like they collect chachis. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm suspect. So why does that happen to you and not me?

I think I can think of three possibilities. One is gender. Okay, we're done. No, but there's more. Two, you know, I tend to talk mostly about data, and you go deep into people's emotions. That's true. I think that maybe creates a more personal

or parasycial connection. But then three, also, you're a social worker. you actually help people. You can, right? And they think you're a therapist. I mean, people do think I'm a therapist, which I'm like, would you want me to be your therapist?

I mean, like, I have a therapist. But would you want me to be your therapist? No, you would not. I'd be like, and he said what? No. We're done. Let's text him right now. You know, like, I would be terrible at that.

You're the psychologist. Yeah, but not the kind who actually helps anyone. Raise your hand if you've been helped by Adam's work. That's not true. I think it's the topics I study, but I think it's gender. I think a lot of it is gender.

Okay, so then the question is, you make a judgment of that person when they very inappropriately dump vulnerability on you and maybe also show some entitlement and even some narcissism in what they ask of you. But is that an indication of their character? or is that a moment that showed you a problematic tendency they have, which may coexist also

with some virtues along with that vice? Or do I give a shit which one of those it is? Like, but honestly, that is the question. Like, do I care if that's your character? Do I care if it's a temporary lack of judgment? I don't care. Just keep walking. Like, just I actually, I actually, I am a good person. FYI. You don't have to defend that. No, but I don't love it. And I don't. The only thing, I can tell you this.

The only time I felt like this before was when I was pregnant. Oh, and everyone wants to touch you with no permission. And people would come up and touch me. And I was like, ooh, a pregnant body is not a public body. A pregnant body's not a public body. You know, like, you know, back then

when we were learning all the new language. Like, this is my safe space. Quick aside, I had no idea that even existed until Allison was pregnant with her oldest. And the first time someone made a beeline to rub her tummy, I was like, wait, you think you can touch a stranger just because she's pregnant? And I was like, can I go up and just like start rubbing all the, like, how is this suddenly okay? And so I started drafting an op-ed that was called, Please Stop Touching My Wife. And nothing came of it.

But this is horrifying. And so you feel this when, when, yeah, okay, I get it. So here's a question. So. I'm being diagnosed by the psychologist in real time. I'm not qualified to diagnose you and I don't have a diagnosis. I think the self-protective instinct is understandable. I think the question is then what do you do with it?

Because I think your impulse is to just not be in the room. And we're talking, let me decode. We're talking about, do you want to go to this event? where there's a lot of people like this. Right. And I'm like, never in my career have ever been, nor do I want to start going now.

I'm waiting for Longhorn football season. I'm waiting to start tubing when it gets warm. No, I don't want to be with these people. At the same time, it's an amazing, the one time I've done something like that, it was a really interesting learning experience.

But you know what? You know what I don't like? This is happening in real time. Is it awkward? What is now? Well, no, but no. It wasn't before. But you know what?

I don't like, I don't want to be a part of a world of exchange and transaction. Like, I have no interest in power, celebrity. I can, you know, make my own money. And so I think I worry that that world is transactional and that we see evidence to do. And that we see evidence to day of people that made very dangerous decisions to get close to power. And this is what narcissists do, right? They use people for their own game. Yes, that's it. That's the connection.

I knew it was going to tidy up in a bow. A big Texas taffat a bow. Here's the thing, though. I think, so your self-protective response is mostly to opt out when you get invited to address a group of world leaders or, you get invited to address a group of world leaders or, you're you know, CEOs or Hollywood people. And I get it. And there are people who will say,

don't, you know, you should not be in that room. And there are people who always are in that room. I don't want that room to exist without voices like yours in it. Oh, sweet. I mean, that's really thoughtful. That's really kind. You all are with me. So I'm just going to pile on a little.

little bit more because I want to be able to say later, Brunei, remember when all the people at Southby were cheering for you showing up? Where is the moral compass if you opt out? And only the transactional people show up and they run the world. That scares the hell out of me. Bummer. Can we do it not during football season? I'll settle for that one. Yeah, no, I do, I have watched you do it and navigate it really well, and you are the least power proximity person. You. What's the opposite of a star fucker?

A star runner. Join me. Yeah, I think it's probably my reaction, even when we're talking about narcissism and leadership. It's just, it feels so dangerous because at the inside of it, whether we're talking about U.S. politics, we're talking about global leaders, we're talking about leaders and organizations, at the bottom of it is dehumanization. And it's about transactional, access to power, access to influence. And I feel like that has just never, it has always been

so cautionary to me. And I don't, and I think part of it is like my pathological introversion that I'm not good in those situations. I mean, I am, I know what? I am actually very good. You're not good in those situations. You don't like them. I'm very good in them at them actually, but it's very costly for me privately.

And I think, I remember the first time, I was the first Random House author in the history of Random House to do a book tour without a book signing. And so the first time I went, like launched in L.A., the book tour did. So I looked up and I said, I won't be signing books today.

I'll be happy to stay in extra 30 minutes or 45 minutes and talk to you about the work. But I'm not going to sign your book because there's nothing. My signature has no value. And I need to go home whole to my kids and my husband. And that leaves me less than whole. And in that second, every woman in the room jumped to their feet and started clapping. I wasn't paying attention to what the guys were doing. But because I just saw women.

Because there were four guys in the room at that time. No, there were a lot, including, I think, the Seattle Seahawks. But I think the women were like, it goes back to the bank account. You know, it goes back to, I can go to those rooms and I can talk and, you know, do those kind of things. And I don't, like, I wouldn't mind if they were here and I talked and I left. But the cost for me is high. Yeah, I just, I've never known you to be someone who is unwilling to pay. a temporary price for potential lasting contribution.

No, I'm not. I'm happy to send them a book. And listen to the podcast, The Curiosity Shop, wherever you listen to your podcast or on YouTube. Okay, so I think this recording is going to launch as our third podcast. So I'm curious because we have 22 seconds left. What do y'all think? Podcasts?

Yeah. We don't always get along. Wait, no, we always get along. We always get along. Mostly. But we don't always agree. But I think that's okay today, right? People need to be able to get along and not agree, potentially.

But I'm grateful for you. The gratitude is mutual. I'm not going to make a cheesy heart symbol. I like you. I really do. I know y'all had a lot of choices about where to go with your fancy badges. But we were really excited about launching the podcast at South by Southwest and really excited to do it with y'all. And so we're grateful.

So thank you all. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brunei Brown, Education and Research Group and granted productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.com. Thanks to Canva for their support, with incredible tools to boost. your design and productivity, Canva can help turn that idea into an actual thing. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, from logos to websites, it's time to turn that idea into something real. Canva. It's the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more

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