The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant - Sober AF, Michael Scott Phobia, and How to Politely End a Conversation

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

Marking a major personal milestone, Brené shares what led her to 30 years of sobriety and Adam asks what it taught her about change. From there, they pivot to why Brené can’t tolerate the cringe of The Office —and Adam’s take on how to engage with it. Finally, they deliver a masterclass on the art and science of ending social interactions, sharing the ultimate shortcut to a graceful exit. This is great!  You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - What Are We Talking About Today? 5:00 - Sober AF: Celebrating 30 Years of Sobriety  16:30 - Grieving for Joy 28:22 - Why Can’t Brené Watch The Office? 43:18 - Loving or Hating Violating the Rules 49:30 - The Art of Leaving Conversations Respectfully 1:03:40 - The Shortcut to a Graceful Exit 1:08:39 - What Adam and Brené Are Watching Now Gottman Institute - Research and History - Drs. Julie and John Gottman (Founded 1996) The Love Prescription, Part 2 of 3 - Brene Brown with Drs John and Julie Gottman, 2022, Unlocking Us Podcast The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2010, TED Talk, TEDxHouston Everything You Think You Know About Addiction Is Wrong - Johann Hari, 2015, TED Talk, TEDGlobalLondon The Fresh Start Effect: Temporal Landmarks Motivate Aspirational Behavior - Dai, Milkman & Riis, 2014, Management Science Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead - Brené Brown, 2012, book, Gotham Books I Love Lucy: Job Switching - Arnaz, 1952, CBS The Office: Scott's Tots - B.J. Novak, 2009, NBC Benign Violations: Making Immoral Behavior Funny - McGraw & Warren, 2010, Psychological Science Office Ladies - Fischer & Kinsey, 2019-present, Audacy (Podcast) Do Conversations End When People Want Them To? - Mastroianni et al., 2021, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Politeness: Some Universals in Language Usage - Brown & Levinson, 1987, Cambridge University Press (Book) Want to Improve Your Relationship? Start Paying More Attention to Bids - Logan Ury, 2026, Gottman Institute The Virtues of Gossip: Reputational Information Sharing as Prosocial Behavior - Feinberg, Willer, Stellar & Keltner, 2012, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Jury Duty - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2023-2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series)  Jury Duty Presents: Company Retreat - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series) The Madison - 2026, Sheridan, Paramount+ (Television Series) Landman - Sheridan, 2024-present, Paramount+ (Television Series) Opening Up Closings - Schegloff & Sacks, 1973, Semiotica Closing the Conversation: Evidence from the Academic Advising Session - Hartford & Bardovi-Harlig, 1992, Discourse Processes Collaborative Strategies in Chinese Telephone Conversation Closings - Sun, 2005, Pragmatics Ending Social Encounters - Albert & Kessler, 1978, Journal of Experimental Social Psychology Relations in Public: Microstudies of the Public Order - Erving Goffman, 1971, Basic Books (Book) Sorry for Your Kindness: Japanese Interactional Ritual in Public Discourse - Ide, 1998, Journal of Pragmatics Getting Down to Business: Talk, Gaze, and Body Orientation During Openings of Doctor-Patient Consultations - Robinson, 1998, Human Communication Research Negotiating Last-Minute Concerns in Closing Korean Medical Encounters - Park, 2013, Social Science & Medicine Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Three topics for today. One, let's chat sobriety in my 30 years. I have some interesting thoughts I want to run by you. Two, we're going to talk about not just the office, but why I'm incapable of watching shows that people love. And three, we'll talk about the art and science of gently leading conversations. How's that sound? I mean, that's the perfect way to exit this conversation is to talk about how to get out

one. Welcome to the Curiosity Shop. A show from the Fox Media Podcast Network. Hi, everyone. I'm Brne Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. Okay. I thought we'd start with a new question because John and Julie Gottman, who I absolutely

love the Gottman's work, are celebrating their 30th anniversary. and they taught me this question. I use it with Steve. It's such a good question. What's on your heart and mind? Am I supposed to have different answers to both? I don't know. It depends on how far apart they live in your mind, in your body, I guess.

But what's on your heart and mind today this week that we can talk about? Well, 30 years. I mean, did you forget your post? Oh, yes. Sobriety. Subriety. They're a 30th anniversary, and I am celebrating. I'm celebrating 30 years of sobriety.

Congratulations, Bray. Thank you. Definitely want to talk about that. Okay, we'll talk about sobriety. I am dying to talk to you about this conversation. I've had a small version of it with you, and then I spent an hour and a half talking to my kids. So Charlie Ellen and Ellen's new husband, J.T.

I spent like an hour talking to them about this. I cannot watch the shows that y'all all love, starting with The Office, which is a collection of some of my favorite actors of all time, but I cannot watch it. And so I want to get into why I can't watch it, and then I need you to cure me. I definitely need to cure you.

I'm not okay with this. You have to watch The Office. Okay. And then the last thing we're going to talk, what, tell me. Well, there's one other thing I want to talk about. which is we were at a conference together. And you mastered, well, you did a master class in something that I've been struggling with.

And I want to talk about what your tricks are. What is it? Leaving Conversations. How to exit. I love that I'm a specialist in leaving conversations. That checks out. Okay, we have talked about this before. And I wasn't sure if we were going to talk about it today.

So I prepped with a lit review on leaving conversations because I would, I'll tell you why. I was curious. I had this weird experience. I don't know, maybe 15 years ago when the TED talk on vulnerability went viral. I saw someone like duo my talk and do a running commentary over the top of it. And I was so fascinated because this guy kept saying things like here, you'll notice that she engineers a quarter of an inch head turn and moves her hips this way when she does a four second pause and moves her left foot. This is conveying, and I was like, what is he freaking talking about? Like, why, what is this like post-game analysis that none of those things were in my head?

Or listen to the pause here and then look how, you know, have you ever seen people do that where they try to like build a system off something? I have. Have you seen this? We're even guilty of doing that. Yeah. Oh, that's true. We are guilty of doing that sometimes.

But I'm talking about the people who don't do it well. I'm just kidding. So I was curious about how I think about leaving conversations because we have talked about this before. And then I was curious what the literature said. So we'll get to that. Support for the show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu. It's the only business software you'll ever need.

It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part, O-DU replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try O-D-O-D-F-Frey at O-D-O-D-O-O-com. Okay, where do you want to jump in? I think we have to start with sobriety. I think, first of all, you have to take us back to 30 years ago. This will be really interesting for you, I think, because I often say that my sobriety,

I attribute my sobriety to the final project, one of the final projects in my MSW program, my Master's of Social Work program was to create a family genogram. Are you familiar with a genogram? No. It's a map of your family that uses different shapes and arrows and dotted lines

to understand their relationships. And sometimes a therapist will say, tell me about your family and the notes that they're taking is a geniogram. So they'll have like disrupted lines showing hard relationships. And so we had to do a geniogram

for this class. And I thought, this is interesting. A genogram. Not a genogram. It's genogram. Gina Graham. You were trying to turn it into like a genie coming out of a magic lamp. A genieagram.

I was. We'll grant all your wishes. A genieogram. Yeah. Like something you send somebody on their birthday. So I started working on it. And I got confused when I got to extended family. So I called my mom.

And I said, where is this person? Oh, dad. alcoholism. And oh, okay, got it. So what about these two people? Oh, both dead cirrhosis of the liver and alcoholism. And I was like, oh my God, what is happening in this, this, you know, it's like shake the family tree and all the alcoholics fall out. I kept thinking, what's happening? And I guess I was just ready and I wanted something. different for my life and my history and that scared me and I knew my propensity to you're at the age in graduate school where are you a fun party girl or is there a problem emerging um and so my my my

last time I drank was the night of my I graduated from my with my master's degree and I was hung over and late to mother's day brunch the next day at my mom's yeah and I thought that combined, you know, it was funny because like when you're a fifth generation Texan, you just hear kind of stories and about outlaws and folklore heroes in your family. But then when you, you know, you sit down and you map it out, you're like, wow, it's a lot of addiction and mental health issues really. Turned into funny stories, but not so funny. Yeah.

And so I gave up smoking and drinking. I went to my first meeting. that Monday, graduated from Saturday, Mother's Day was Sunday, went to my first meeting, and you're supposed to find, like, a sponsor, and of course I have the rulebook. And so this woman said, let's go grab dinner after the meeting. And I told her my story, and she looked up and she said, I believe you have the poo-poo platter of addictions. I need you to stop drinking, using food to comfort yourself, and stop involving yourself in all of your family's problems and issues. I was like, shit.

I'm going to have a lot of time on my hands. And then that was it. Then I worked the AA program and went to meetings all the time for about a year and a half. And it was also working on that stuff in therapy and have been sober since. It's incredible. First of all, congratulations. Thank you. Secondly.

Thanks. No good. No, it's. I posted about it, which we can, is a weird thing. I posted about it on social for a really weird reason. I sometimes post things like that and sometimes don't. The number of people that have come up to me over the last 15 years and said, you sharing your story really helped me get sober and putting a face on it that's different,

really allowed me to get help. And so I had to weigh kind of, it feels private, but at the same time, hearing other people's stories really helped me. So it was interesting. I have to say it's got a million impressions on LinkedIn and thousands and thousands and thousands. I mean, just thousands of people engaging with it, leaving comments. But a lot of people in the picture on LinkedIn, I'm holding a coffee cup that says sober AF. And on LinkedIn, people were just putting their. date and sober AF.

Wow. And it was so shocking. So many people wrote how much shame is still attached to talking about being sober, especially in a work environment. And again, you'll know whether it's safe for you or not, if you're listening or watching. But I don't know. It was hopeful for me. Well, look at you, normalizing vulnerability yet again.

Hate it. Fuck it. I have to tell you there's something that that's really amazing about your story that I don't think, I don't think gets talked about enough. I don't know if I've ever heard it talked about, which is people always say you have to hit rock bottom in order to begin making a change. And you didn't do that at all. Like you, it sounded like.

I had a high bottom. Yeah. Yeah, but. That's what we call it in the program. I mean, it sounds like you just, you saw the writing on the wall. and you didn't like the possible future you were staring at and decided to change. Why is that arc so different from the one we usually hear? I think inside, you know, inside of the recovery community,

my experience is it's probably 20% rock bottom. Wow. maybe 40% an event that's like, I can't do this anymore. And then 40% I want something different for my life. And I feel like that kind of high bottom, the writings on the wall, this is not what I want for myself, has actually grown in the last 10 years when people say they're experimenting with sobriety. They want to do something different. I mean, I don't want to overstate this, but it seems like the medical community is five minutes away from just basically saying the shit's poison. And all the early findings about, you know, three glasses of wine will do you good to like, no, no, no, we're not sure this is good at all.

So I think it's changing. I think just outside of recovery, the story is rock bottom. And the power of community, one of my favorite sayings is the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. And so it's a connection-fueled program. And sitting in a room with people who, even having gone to some jailhouse meetings, you can look at anybody. Maybe they killed someone in a drinking accident. I mean, you can look at anyone and think, oh, well, there, but for the grace of God, you know.

And I think that's part of the power of it. But for me, it was much more of a thinking bottom. Wow. You know, I guess it makes me wonder if people underestimate the possibilities they have for change. I'm thinking about... Say more. Well, I'm thinking about, do you know the research led by Heng Chen Dai on the fresh start effect? Mm-mm.

The basic finding, which will not surprise you at all, is that people are more likely to make major life changes at turning point times and dates. On a birthday, on New Year's, the first day of the month, the last day of the month. Like, there's nothing special about May 31st. There's nothing unique about June 1st. It's just a temporal marker that leads you to say, hey, I turn the page, now I'm in a new chapter. And it seems like you woke up that morning and basically decided to turn the page and start a new chapter. I did. It was very deliberate and very intentional. And I think because I didn't have a

physical addiction, and I was very clear that I didn't have a physical addiction to alcohol. I remember Steve saying, I mean, you drink less than most of your friends. And I was like, that's a really dangerous indictment of the folks I'm hanging out with. But I did have the physical addiction to nicotine. And that was brutal. I mean, the only reason I don't smoke today is I don't want to quit again and I don't want to die. Other than that, I miss it every single day. Still? Every single day. 30 years later? Every day. 30 years later. And there are some things in my life that I do not do now because I can't have a cigarette. I don't really sit in my backyard because what's the point if I'm not going to smoke? I would never have a non-alcoholic beer because what's the point

if I can't have a cigarette. And if a really good song comes on, like Boston or ACDC, I'm going to crack the window in my car and hold my pen. Like I'm smoking a cigarette and driving. Like, for sure. It was so habitual for me that I knew the difference. And so for folks who have to go into a physical, you know, the physical detox.

is sometimes that requires a rock bottom because I don't know that you knowingly, even with a fresh start date, opt in for that, the brutality of that physical experience. That is rough. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah. One thing I was thinking about that I wanted to, that I wanted to talk to you about, as I've been reflecting on my sobriety, is how, how, And this goes back to, I talked about this in the TED Talk on vulnerability in 2010, how when we use alcohol, drugs, gambling, social media, whatever your drug of choices, when we use substances or processes to numb the darkness, we by default numb the light. And it's not like we can choose to, hey, I'm going to get rid of all the hard emotions, but stay completely open. and receptive to the positive emotions, it doesn't work that way. And one way that plays out in recovery that I think is really interesting that no one talks

about, which is terrible, is if someone that you know is in recovery loses their job, immediately people form a tight circle around that person, reach out, go to meetings. But we know from the research that if someone gets promoted or engaged or something really exciting happens, they're as or more likely to relapse. Really? Yes. Because they're so overwhelmed by the positive emotion that they've also been numbing. And the community doesn't surround that person in that moment because there's not a hard time.

So they're alone in these incredibly excruciatingly vulnerable feelings of joy, optimism and gratitude, which they also don't have experience feeling. And so it can lead to relapse. I mean, to me, the hardest thing I've had to learn how to do was not grief or shame, but joy. That's the hardest for me. Why? Because I want to just rehearse tragedy when it happens.

In our research, we call it foreboding joy. So when something good happens, I immediately feel this quiver of danger. This is going to be taken away from me. Something bad's going to happen to balance this out. I'm going to get sucker punched by pain if I let my guard down. So I push away joy.

And that was the hardest part of my recovery. Wow. I can tell you this. In our research, we found that over 90% of parents while feeling a very overwhelming love for their children immediately pictured something terrible happening to their children. You're tucking a baby in at night, you're overwhelmed with love and joy,

and then you immediately picture something horrible happening. It's the same thing. That feels different to me. Tell me how. Love and the fear of loss. I think those go hand in hand. Like, joy, I'm having a good time. What is there to worry about?

I think joy for me would not be I'm having a good time. That might be happiness or pleasure or something like that. But real joy to me is, like this weekend, I was with Steve. It's so fun to say all three of the kids now that Ellen, now I've got a new birdie in the nest with a son-in-law. And we all went out on the boat. It was a great day. it was just fun

and then I remember the older kids saying we're going to head home and I was like call me as soon as you get there I think there's a real I think joy is the most vulnerable emotion we experience

really I'm so surprised on us no yeah hands down I think joy is incredibly vulnerable and some people would say it's like waiting for the other shoe to drop it's just

in moments of joy if we're not practiced in the people who can lean into joy we found had one thing in common and that's a very strong gratitude practice that where they're in joy they can say I'm really grateful for this moment is that even necessary though because yes I think yes when I think about great moments of joy you're so absorbed in the moment that you don't even have to think about feeling grateful for it. I would say for the majority of people we've interviewed real true joy, deep joy, like a spiritual sense of being interconnected and love is vulnerable. Yeah, I think it's, I think maybe maybe not for everyone, but when over 90% of parents say,

yeah, the deepest moments of joy trigger insane fear in me. I think it's the same thing. But I can't think of a moment. You know, see if you can make sense of this. This is interesting. I'm so curious about your reaction to all this. One of the things we found in our early research is that some people choose to never get too high in emotion or too low. And the reason why they don't get too high in emotion is they don't want to feel disappointment.

Yeah. So they choose to live disappointed rather than feel disappointed. They choose just to think, eh, it's okay right now, but it'll be bad in a little bit. Or this is nice now, but it'll turn soon. And I just, I harken back to an interview with a man who was in his 70s. And he and his wife were in an automobile accident and she was killed. And he said his greatest, he told me his greatest regret. was never leaning into the great moments out of fear that they'd be taken away

because now he had not accumulated those across his life. It's a gut punch. It's a gut punch. Yeah. And so I do think there's a vulnerability to giving over to love and joy that's real. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder?

with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odu. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part, O-Doo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you?

Try O-Doo for free at O-D-com. That's O-D-O-O-O-com. But we have to talk about The Office, which gives me, I thought, a lot of joy. Well, it could, for sure. Good television, good film, good music brings me a ton of joy. It gives me a feeling of inextricable human connection. Same. But why are you allergic to so many of our favorite shows?

And which ones? Let's start there. I think let's focus on the Office for right now because it will be a representative of other things. Okay. My children can recite the dialogue from every office episode verbatim. Sometimes when the show is not even on, they get into a back and forth on it that is like, you know. Bears, Beats Battlestar Galactica.

It's nuts. Since the time I was little, and I remember the first time it actually happened, I have such excruciating, vicarious embarrassment that I can't. I absolutely just can't watch that show. When I was a little kid, there is a version of I Love Lucy, which I used to watch after school,

where Lucy and Ethel get a job at a candy factory. It's a famous episode. Most people will know what I'm talking about. And they have to wrap the chocolates as they come down the conveyor belt. And the conveyor belt is going so fast that they can't do it.

So they start like eating them and then their mouth is full of them and then they start shoving them Right, down their shirts or their little candy uniforms. And I just ran from the room. Cringe? Cringe. A, you can't do that.

B, I'm so embarrassed for you. And my whole life, like, I could never watch Tree's Company because I'm like, oh, my God, the ropers are going to find out this is not going to work. This is a nightmare. Why? And so when I'm watching, the first episode of the office I ever watched was called Scott's Tots. Do you know the episode? I think I do.

Yeah, where he promises people he's going to put him through college. Yeah, and then he renegligate him on the promised. Yes. Yes. I can't. Okay. All right. I can't. I cannot. I cannot. I am having a meltdown right now in my chair thinking about it.

All right, Renee. You cannot do that. I have questions. You cannot promise people stuff like that. Yeah. But did you forget you're watching a TV show? It's fiction. I know we're supposed to suspend our disbelief in order to engage with a show or a movie. But you're still supposed to remember. It's a screen. written by a bunch of comedy writers to make you laugh. Do you lose sight of the fact that it's not real? It's not okay that anyone thinks like that to write that down. No, do I lose, you know, yes, I completely lose sight. Do you have those same, can you not watch horror movies because they terrify you too much? No, no, I would never in a million years watch something scary.

Okay. All right. So this is deeper than just awkwardness. It's you, you feel everything that happens on this screen. Yes. But otherwise, what's the point? I don't know. It's like, it's a little bit. So, no, I haven't. Wait, hold on a second. I'm not, I'm not even recovered yet. Okay. It's a little bit like riding a roller coaster. You can get this sensation. I love those. Oh, you do. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. But you also remember, like you feel like you're falling and you're going to die, but you also know that you're buckled in. I can, that's definitely what I do on a roller coaster. I can't do that in a visual medium. Only in visual. So can you read a book with awkward interactions or could you read Stephen King? And lack hysterically.

I have read. I can read far past my tolerance for visual violence, yes. And what is it about the visuals that transports? I mean, is it literally just feeling like you're there and having all of your senses active? I blame my parents because we were not allowed to watch anything. Like, we were, we were, we was so straight. We couldn't even watch shows where kids were disrespectful to their parents. Like, and we could watch. Yeah, I saw Smoky and the Bandit with my grandmother who was like a Pearl Bird drinking cigarette smoking. Um, like no boundaries person. And even when I got home from my San Antonio summer, I was grounded for four weeks for watching a PG movie when I was 15 probably.

Yeah. Like we just were very strict. And so I don't, maybe I didn't learn to differentiate, but I don't think it's that. Maybe I'm just visually porous. I believe that. I want to pose this moral question. Is there something wrong with me because I can't watch Game of Thrones? Or is there something wrong with the people who can watch it because they can watch it?

Well, there's a lot more of them than there are of you. So I guess something wrong with could be defined multiple ways. I don't care about population. I mean, like, is it okay that I'm not desensitized to violence? I am. So maybe no one's wrong. Maybe no one's wrong. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't see this as a moral issue at all.

Right, me neither. I watched the first two seasons of Game of Thrones and thought it was really interesting and well done, but found the violence too gratuitous and didn't want to go on. Why didn't you just tell yourself it's like a roller coaster? Oh, I did. But the image is just like, I was just like, oh, there's a lot of good content out there. And a lot of the shows I watch I'm not ambivalent about. So I don't need to engage with this one.

Okay, you got to stop. I'm going to take you back. You just said and went like this. The images were like, oh, like let's go back to that moment. What unpacked that for me. The images were what? I mean, it's like, it, how would I describe it? It's like, it's gross and it's a little upsetting. And it's not like watching a, Civil War movie where there's a reason for depicting it. Like, you don't have to show me all this. It felt like, it felt like the, like the Gore version of Clickbait. Whereas when you watch the office, it serves a purpose. Like, they're making a point. Wow, I'm just realizing just how, how subjective all this is, right? It is. Because I guess, you know, as I, as I listen to this discussion, or as I reflect on what I just said, I think that maybe Game of Thrones was trying to make a point about the brutality of the world that they were depicting. But I don't know that

that point needs to be made, or at least it doesn't need to be made to me. Whereas you don't get the office without awkwardness. And Bray, you are the queen of awkward. It's in your tagline. stay brave and you say stay awkward. So don't you want to raise your awkwardness tolerance? Is it the, oh, I don't even want to say this out loud. It makes me, I don't, I don't even think I want to know this about myself. Because I'm trying to think about whether it's the awkwardness or the rule breaking. Hmm.

That's really hard for me. You know, it's like, I, and I'm not talking about. political correctness because, I mean, that doesn't really bother me and I can find a lot of humor in that sometimes. But when you said maybe they were trying to, maybe in Game of Thrones, they were trying to teach a lesson or make a point about the brutality of the world they had created, maybe, but I don't need to learn that lesson. Maybe it's for me, maybe with the office, they're trying to make a point about, the just terrible idea of putting groups of people together in the workplace and expecting it to go well.

I don't know what the point is, but that's funny. But they don't need to make it to me. I already know that. And I don't, and I just think it's the, it could be like my, the firstborn rule following. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. That is just. Yeah.

It could be. I just, I can relate to that. But I think that, I think world-class comedy is rare. And I think the office was the funniest material on television for a whole decade. And the characters are so, they're so quirky and so lovable despite the rules that they break and the norms they violate. I just, I think it's like not watching The Office is like not watching friends or not having seen Star Wars. It's just, it's just a core part of our culture. Bring Star Wars into it.

Star Wars is like very much up my alley and Star Trek. But let me ask you this. I wish you were the kind of psychologist where you had like the couch and you could analyze me. What does it mean that if I'm going to share a meme with someone to convey something, 90% of the memes I share are from the office? It means you're, I just can't watch it. You're a careful student of culture even when you're not fully up to speed. in the loop. It means you're paying attention. Yeah, no, because I think they're really funny

and the memes are so good and like Dwight and the beat for, I could probably talk to you about it ad nauseum as if I'd watched it. The other one I can't watch is Veep. I'm like, the thing, the thought bubble that's going off all the time in my head is you can't say that. You can't do that. Saying that is not okay. You know, doing that is not okay. Like, that's what's going off in my head the whole time. Brené, but this is, I mean, this is, it's one of the core pillars of comedy. I'm sure you've read Peter McGrath's benign violations theory of humor. I doubt, no, I have not.

Oh, I mean, it's, it's probably become the most influential theory of humor and this, I mean, I think giant warning label, analyzing comedy almost always kills it. But Peter, Peter does these highly entertaining studies in his lab where basically the easy way to get someone to laugh other than, you know, just kind of simple physical comedy is you create a benign violation. So something happens that shouldn't, but it's also harmless. And people find that inherently funny. I think it's really hard to create clever comedy without violations of norms and rules. Okay, this is so helpful. Why?

This is so helpful. I don't like it when people violate rules. Do you know what I don't like? This is probably why I struggle with a lot of comedians. Although I can watch comedy specials and really laugh hard, I do not like your reverence. It's related to the sarcasm discussion we had early on. Is it?

Yeah, I think it is. That's my favorite. kind of humor. But I'm very sarcastic. You are. That's true. But we don't always like to receive what we send, right? No, I like sarcastic people too. Case in point. Let's take a specific example. I just want to get your reaction to one of my all-time favorite office scenes, which I think is a great example of a benign violation. Okay. So do you know that Jim likes to prank Dwight and that... Yes, yes, yes.

So some of the pranks, I think, are just genius. And my favorite one is there's an episode where Dwight picks up the phone and accidentally slams himself in the ear with it. Like, basically just clocks himself in the side of the head.

And the camera cuts to Jim saying something to the effect of every day I've been unscrewing Dwight's phone. And the first day I put one nickel in it. And then the second day, I added a second nickel. And for months, I've been adding nickels to make the phone handle heavier and heavier and heavier. And today, I took them all out. And the phone handle is just too light. And he just wax himself in the head. First of all, I mean,

the genius of the person who came up with this prank, I cannot, I want to hang out with that writer every day. But more important than that is the fact that this is a benign violation. Like you are not supposed to cause your coworker to hit himself in the head. But also, it's not going to leave a mark and it happened on TV. And the office is full of these kinds of moments. How can you not love that? I do love that prank. I think that's funny. I do love a prank. Okay. I do love a prank. Yeah, that's funny. So how many of these do I have to give you before you decide that the pros are worth the cons? I don't know. I'm going to have to think about it. I do love a good prank. I mean, like, I'm a terrible person because, like, the funny, the Instagram's where I'm laughing so hard where I think I'm going to pass out because I can't breathe are like people getting scared.

Those are really funny to me. I don't know why because I scare really easily. I don't know. I'm going to have to think about it. I don't like the... Did you think Scott's Tots was a funny episode where he promised all the kids and they celebrate them that their whole K-12 life? And then it's time for them to graduate and they're going to be the first cohort going to college. I mean, that was a little sad. But what made me okay with that episode, even though it's not a storyline I would have written. It's not one of my favorite episodes from the show at all. is you have Michael Scott, and if you just take him at face value, you think he's a jerk. But what you forget is he's in this documentary stuck in Scranton, Pennsylvania at a paper company.

And he's trying to become famous. He's trying to become a reality TV star. And so he does all these idiotic things in front of a camera to try to get attention. And it's a parody of how reality TV works in our culture. And that makes it funny to me. because he's basically saying this is what somebody would do to try to get famous.

Maybe I could watch it with you. You want me to... I'm going to pause and analyze every two minutes and I'm going to just ruin the whole thing for you. No, no. Maybe if you could just do a running, like a running thing, that would be really helpful for me.

I'm in. I've been waiting for an excuse to rewatch it, but we should also listen to the Office Ladies' podcast afterward. Yeah, I've listened to the podcast. I've listened to the podcast. I've listened to several episodes of it. Like, you have no idea how much I love the actors in the office.

They are amazing. All right. They are amazing. We're adding this to our to do list. Okay. Okay, wait, one request for listeners. If you have, if you have an episode that you want us to either move to the top of the queue or to talk about the implications of, let us know. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier, CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more.

And the best part, O-Doo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try O-D-O-4-3 at O-D-O-D-com. That's O-D-O-O-O-O-com. Can we talk about how to get out of a conversation? So I need to tell you a story. Okay. Oh, God. I'm worried. I'm so worried, Jall. I'm so worried. Make me look good.

Oh, it's not about you. Don't worry. Oh, perfect. Great. You're the contrast to the story. I thought it was something you witnessed. Okay. So we were at this conference last week and I went to the gym with a couple other attendees in the morning. And one of them is a fitness nut and offered very generously to, play personal trainer and lead the rest of us through a workout. And so we show up. We're a couple minutes into our workout. And the other guy who's with us gets accosted by somebody I think I've met at the conference once before. And the guy basically just launches into what had to have been a nine minute story. And I'm watching my friend, he's got this look on his face like he's trying to be

polite, but he's also trying to figure out how to get out of the conversation. And meanwhile, it's holding up the whole rotation that we're in because we're on a circuit. And he's just too nice to say, excuse me, like, I need to do a set. Or could you cut to the chase? Which obviously would be a little rude. And I watched that happen. I realize I have been this guy my whole life. I am constantly in conversations that I don't know how to get out of. I avoid, I avoid phone Sometimes I just don't even answer because I'm afraid if I pick up, I won't be able to exit the conversation. It just, it feels rude to cut someone off. And the contrast between that and what I saw you do in the middle of conversations, just say like, excuse me for a second, and then give someone a reason to walk away.

I was like, okay, this is a skill that you have that I want to learn. How do you leave a conversation without making somebody else feel bad? Okay, I, I'm still, like, shocked about the workout person that came in, saw people working out and jumped into a nine-minute story. It was, that was, yeah, it was shocking. And he was not reading the room at all. Okay. So I, I've, I've been thinking about it. And I did pull an interesting lit review, which I actually think is helpful to talk about some of the research. because I didn't really have words for what I did until I read the literature. The way I always think about it in my mind

was I always thought about it, even tried to teach it to my kids with this metaphor, pull the band-a-rip the band-aid off and leave some relational sticky. Ooh. Tell me more. Yeah, that's how I always thought about it. I'm going to, I'm going to exit stage left

when I'm ready and when I need to, but I am going to do it. in a way that's highly relational. And so had I not read the lit review preparing for this conversation, I wouldn't have understood what I was doing. So this is like a win for research. So I'm going to do these things. I didn't know they were, I didn't know they had names.

Have you ever had that experience with research? Like you're like, here's what I do intuitively. All the time. And then here's, isn't it wild? Love it. God, I love it. I love it. So why do I love it?

It's both validating and enlightening at the same time. Yes. Okay. I feel seen and also now I can talk about it. Yes, it gives me language. Because it's not helpful to say, well, just you got to rip off the conversation in like a Band-Aid Adam, but just make sure you leave some relational stickiness on that person when you pull it off. Like, you're like not helpful, right? Not yet. Keep going.

It's not that, not yet. Okay. So here, here's, and we're going to put. all of this research in the show notes, so you can go to the actual articles. But here's some interesting things I learned. The polite assumption that they want to keep talking is almost always wrong based on the research. Exiting earlier is usually doing the other person a favor. It's not a slight. I love framing this as a social. Yes. It was a landmark study of 932 conversations. Oh, wait. Is this Master Yanni and Gilbert? Yeah. Yes. It is.

Yes. Okay, so, God, you're so wild that you do that. Like, God, in this last season of my life, let me have the ability to recall research like Adam Grant. You don't want it. Amen. Okay. It's a curse. I do want it.

Okay. It isn't. Okay. I want to talk about some of the findings of that research, actually, because I think they're very relevant here. Let's go. But no, I want to hear the rest of what you found first. Okay. This is what I thought was interesting.

This is how you, something. I just kind of do intuitively, I guess, but it actually breaks it down. A typical closing has, well, one thing to say is they are collaboratively negotiated, not unilaterally announced. So I want you to sit with that for a second. Yes, it's so good that a conversation end or graceful exit is collaboratively negotiated, not unilaterally announced. And what helps that is a four-part sequence.

One, a pre-closing token, which is, and this is across culture. Okay, well, oops, time's up or, oh, some kind of, oh, great catch up, I'll send that link. Some kind of pre-closing token is really helpful, followed by an arrangement. or summary. So okay or well, number one. I'll follow up on that. It was so good to see you. That's number two. Number three, terminal exchange. Take care. You two. Have a great conference. And then four, a farewell, which is bye-bye. So one, tell you a funny story about one. One, okay or well. This is your closing token. Two, an arrangement or summary. Great catching up. I'll send that link. Good to see you. Some kind of summary. Three, a terminal exchange, take care you two. Four, a farewell or buy. And then this researcher

writes, skipping straight to buy feels rude precisely because it omits the pre-closing collaboration. Yep. Yeah. Okay, this makes a ton of sense where you're signaling that it's time for the conversation to end before you've actually said it out loud. do you know in another set of research the signaling is so strong with your body kind of like angling toward the exit area moving that in this other study that I read when patients see physicians start to do the signaling of a close that's when they're most likely to say oh i've got a couple last minute questions i've got just a couple more questions because they can see that collaborative dance start to happen? Yeah, time's running out. I better, I better spill.

Okay. This is why, this is Brown and Levinson's politeness theory. Do you know this work? A little bit, not well. Okay. Frames leaving a conversation as a face-threatening act. It can imply the partner is boring or unimportant or that you're imposing a constraint. So, This four steps really helps collaboratively in something. I just do it intuitively. So I will say, oh, shoot, it was so good to see you. I've got to run. Can't wait to catch up again.

Much harder when you're in the same captive location. So I was thinking about the conference where we both were. Even if I've got to run from one huddle of people talking or just one other person to another one-on-one that is literally 10 feet away, I will still do this. Oh, shoot, I just saw so-and-so. I promise them I'd give him some information. It was so good to catch up. Glad we get to be at the conference together. I'll see you soon. Tell me about these four steps for you. Oh, I like them a lot. I think, in actually to go back to the Gottman's, in Gottman language, you're making a bid. You're making a bed. Here's a bid. I'm sending you a message that I would

love to collaborate in wrapping up this conversation. And unless you're oblivious or from a different culture or neurodivergent, you're going to pick up that signal and start collaborating to close it out because it would be very awkward to track me back into it as I'm trying to leave. I mean, I think that's right. Yeah, I like that a lot. And I think your list of caveats is also big, important. Yeah, I think a lot of these situations may, I think the caveats might capture. some of the situations where it's hard because you initiate the collaboration and the other person denies the bid as opposed to accepting it. What do I do? Should I just be more direct? I don't want to hurt their feelings. Yes. I think that's when I do the soft hand on the forearm. I'm so sorry.

I'm so glad you're here. I want to catch up later. I've got to run. It's so good to see you. That's what I talk about would rip it off but leave the relational sticky. One of the things I've been thinking about from a work perspective in the work that I do with leaders is this is why it's so difficult for transactional leaders to lead real transformation. They don't leave behind any relational residue even when they have to cut things short. Exactly right. And so it feels abrupt and impersonal and just instrumental task focused. Yeah, I got what I need. I'm leaving now. Yep. Yeah, you're a mean to an end for me. I mean, that's exactly right. One thing that I highlighted in this little lit review that I did, I want you to diagnose this sentence for me. Are you ready?

Ready. This is, again, this is part of how to, this is my how to exit a conversation gracefully lit review. For introverts specifically, the literature suggests the discomfort that drives early exit is not a social deficit. It surfaces a coordination signal the other person was likely also feeling, but suppressing. Okay. So, hmm. Do you read it again? No, I'm just thinking,

I'm actually, I'm connecting it to the Maseriani and Gilbert paper. For sure. Okay, so that study of nearly a thousand conversations, the thing I remember so vividly from it is that of all those conversations,

only 2% ended when both people wanted them to. So 98% of the time, at least one person is not happy with how long the conversation went. And I think their takeaway, which is resonant for introverts, is it's better to leave too soon than too late. Leave people wanting more, not less. I think that's true. I like in this research, Mastriani. Is that how we're pronouncing it?

I think it's Mastroiani. Master Riani. Okay. The authors frame ending a conversation actually as a coordination problem. The conflict is it coordinating the end, not in wanting to end. Right. Yes. Which is what you're saying.

Yes, exactly. And the coordination is tricky in part because our feelings changed during the conversation. Yeah. How often have you been in a conversation where the first few minutes you thought, thought, okay, we didn't click, forget it. And then a few minutes later, you're really into it. Many. Yeah. So there's the dance, the dance of leaving is happening at the same time. Sometimes it's the dance of, wait, I actually want to stay. You know what drives me crazy?

What? When somebody says, sometimes people end meetings early. And they say, I'm going to give you your time back. I hear that all the time every day. One of my biggest pet peeves. You don't own my time. You can't give it to me. This is a coordinated decision. I chose to meet with you.

If I want my time back, I will claim it by ending the meeting. Or we should decide together. I've never thought about it that way. It does assume ownership of your time. It does. And there's a little, it smacks of entitlement to me. Like, here, I'm going to bestow upon you this gift. I have power over you.

And I am unilaterally declaring that you have freedom, but without that, you'd be trapped with me. What if I said, I would love to get a little bit of my own time back today and hope maybe that's helpful for you? I think we can wrap here. Such a win. You're my hero, if you say that in any meeting ever, including right now. Okay. One of the things that my takeaway from thinking about kind of how I do this and then reading this, let review again, which I found very helpful, if you really struggle with a graceful exit, we'll put this research in the, again, again, the show notes. But I would say the shortcut here is warmth and connection and genuine warmth and connection. I think if you have those things, it's easier to leave.

If those things are not present, I would rely on the four steps and practice it a little bit. Because I think it's very easy for me with people I generally care about to say, even with people that I care about, I'm thinking about some people specifically right now, one or two people in my life who probably I don't share, we probably have different levels of how long we'd like the conversation to go. And mine is much shorter.

chronically. Chronically. I mean, habitually, predictably, longer. Do you address that with a person then, as opposed to having to repeatedly find the graceful way to escape? No, I think I'm just graceful in saying, I loved our catch-up. I've got to run.

It was so good to see you. No. Because, no, because I think to address it chronically would be to get a... head of what they might be bringing up. If they bring up something that's really tough or they really need me for something, I'm happy to extend that time. But I'm, you know, I, the other thing is, I'm not one Lent many years ago, maybe 15, 18 years ago now, I gave up gossiping for Lent. Wow.

And I realized that I have a few very good friends and then I have a lot of friends where the connection is somewhat counterfeit because what we mostly talk about is shit around other people. We just talk about other people in not a positive way, which is why I gave it up for Lent, because it actually, going back to sobriety,

this is a clean little type thing. It doesn't, yeah, it doesn't work for my program, you know. So the folks that sometimes want more of my attention want to get my hot take on people that I'm not going to share a hot take on. not that I don't want to. It seems really fun and great. And I would probably enjoy it. And I'd be

very good at being shitty. But I just can't afford it. Yeah, I respect that. I think, I wonder if you have an exception, which is there's, well, I think about the really critical function of what's called pro-social gossip. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, I need to warn you that this person has a pattern of being a selfish take or watch out. That's different, right? Yeah. That's, that is different than all we have in common is to talk shit about some other people. Yeah, that's not cool. Like if, yeah, if we can't find a way to have an interesting five or ten minute connection, um, that doesn't involve being hurtful toward anyone else, then I'm questioning either how hard we're willing to work for it is, or if it's just not there. Um, so I think that's a big one. I have to just in this that I,

was telling Ellen and J.T. and Charlie this weekend that we were going to talk about the graceful exit. And I asked J.T. told me the funniest story that he had seen a YouTube video about this conversation in the comments. Someone wrote, I don't know why I think this is funny. This is probably not going to be funny. But someone wrote, we always know it's time to wrap up in our family when my dad is sitting down and slaps both of his knees and then stands up. And all I thought of it's like, well, and really in my family, whenever my dad would be like, well, I'd be like, oh, shit, get the, get the, get the, get the casserole pot in your purse because it's over. This is, this is exit stage brown family.

So I thought that was really funny. I love that. It seems like we should all build a simple norm that everybody reads the same way. Oh, I'm going to go with this one. Well, see ya. It was nice to catch up. All right, this was fun. Before we go, I have to ask,

anything that you're watching, listening to, or thinking about that is interesting. Yeah. Did you watch jury duty? No. Oh, okay. I mean, maybe this will fail for you because it's too uncomfortable,

but it was one of the cleverest reality shows I've ever seen. It's a show about a bunch of jurors, Only one of them doesn't know that all the rest are actors. What? Yeah. And it's, it was, I thought it was brilliant. And now they have a second season.

It's Jury Duty presents company retreat. And it's a similar premise. It's a fake, a fake family company with all actors, hires one real person. And Allison and I just watched the first episode, and I think it's very promising. Okay. Okay, I will make you, I'll make this commitment.

I will watch, how many, how many episodes in the season of jury duty? I think it was eight, if I remember correctly. Okay. What about you? I'm going to watch it. What am I watching right now? I'm mostly listening to stuff right now. So, well, I did finish the Madison, which is Taylor Sheridan's kind of new, he's the writer,

person behind Landman and Yellowstone. I couldn't watch Yellowstone because of the violence. I'm going to watch Landman. I love Billy Bob Thornton's wild to me and I like to watch him

on screen. But the Madison, my sister told me to watch it and I was like, I don't know. I thought it was the most beautifully observed television on grief.

I found felt such a loss and longing. I mean, the way grief is explored in it, I thought was really interesting. And it is beautifully shot in wide open spaces, which is a Taylor Sheridan Hallmark. And it involves fly fishing, which I'm obsessed with. I've never done it, but I just think it's so beautiful. Wow. It's very river runs through it. So I watched the Madison. I thought it was really great. Michelle Pfeiffer was wonderful in it. But I am going to watch the jury. duty, I will, is it called the jury

duty or jury duty? Jury duty. I will report back. I'd rather you watch the office. Just saying. I can't. They're not following any protocol or rules. I'm doing a viewing party. It's happening. I'll watch one episode.

The folks are going to push up an episode for us to watch together. And be thoughtful, y'all. Don't push up the cringiest because, you know, walk me into the cringe the baby pool of cringe and then I'll do the deep end if I can make it And with that, Brayne, it's been really delightful talking to you

And I have some TV to watch now But I look forward to chatting again soon This was so fun I'll see you soon The Curiosity Shop is produced by Bray Brown Education and Research Group And Granted Productions You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube

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