The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant - The Four Kinds of Connections We Need

Episode Date: October 8, 2026

In the final episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant draw on Adam’s new book, Vibe (out October 13), to explore how recognizing the differences between associates, allies, pals, and companions can help us better understand our connections. They unpack the pressure we put on relationships, the importance of being clear about what we want from them, and why a great interaction doesn’t always need to become an ongoing relationship. They also explore the idea of being on the same wavelength and the concept of “sonder,” the recognition that we can never fully know another person’s inner world. Along the way, Brené and Adam reflect on their own relationship, what they’ve learned from working together, and how their connection has evolved throughout The Curiosity Shop. Vibe – Adam Grant, 2026, adamgrant.net Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World – Anne-Laure Le Cunff, 2025, Ness Labs How the Enneagram System Works – The Enneagram Institute, enneagraminstitute.com Give and Take – Adam Grant, 2013, adamgrant.net Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation: The U.S. Surgeon General's Advisory on the Healing Effects of Social Connection and Community – Vivek Murthy, 2023, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Social Connection Linked to Improved Health and Reduced Risk of Early Death – World Health Organization, 2025, World Health Organization US Trends in Social Isolation, Social Engagement, and Companionship—Nationally and by Age, Sex, Race/Ethnicity, Family Income, and Work Hours, 2003–2020 – Viji Diane Kannan, 2023, SSM – Population Health Talk, Trust, and Trade-Offs: How and Why Teens Use AI Companions – Common Sense Media, 2025, Common Sense Media What I Got Wrong About Connection – Adam Grant, 2026, Granted (Substack) How I Overcame the Fear of Public Speaking – Adam Grant, 2014, Psychology Today A Practical Guide to Building Taxonomies That Make Data Truly Useful to Your Organization – UserTesting, 2023, UserTesting Blog The Grapes of Wrath – John Steinbeck, 1939, Penguin Random House Friends – David Crane, 1994, NBC (IMDb) Vibe Quiz – Adam Grant, adamgrant.net DTR – Dictionary.com, 2018, Dictionary.com Vulnerability Is the Birthplace of Innovation, Creativity and Change: Brené Brown at TED2012 – Helen Walters, 2012, TED Blog Nicomachean Ethics, Book VIII – Aristotle, c. 350 BCE, The Internet Classics Archive (MIT) Friendship – Bennett Helm, 2021, Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy The Anatomy of Friendship – Robin Dunbar, 2018, Trends in Cognitive Sciences Let's Rumble – Brené Brown, 2019, brenebrown.com Similar Neural Responses Predict Friendship – Carolyn Parkinson, 2018, Nature Communications Single-Serving Friends (Fight Club) – Uploader unknown, YouTube Wharton Professor Adam Grant Knows How to Build Stronger Bonds at Work – Aman Kidwai, 2025, Newsweek Mistakenly Seeking Solitude – Nicholas Epley, 2014, Journal of Experimental Psychology: General Social Interactions and Well-Being: The Surprising Power of Weak Ties – Gillian Sandstrom, 2014, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin Learning to Talk to Strangers – Gillian Sandstrom, 2022, SPSP Character & Context blog The Power of High-Quality Connections – Jane Dutton, 2003, Positive Organizational Scholarship (Berrett-Koehler) Flow and Happiness – Joachim Krueger, 2015, Psychology Today Basking in Reflected Glory: Three (Football) Field Studies – Robert Cialdini, 1976, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On – Brené Brown, 2026, The Curiosity Shop (YoutTube) Do Parasocial Relationships Fill a Loneliness Gap? – Heidi Godman, 2024, Harvard Health Publishing Sonder – John Koenig, The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows Beautiful New Words to Describe Obscure Emotions – John Koenig, 2016, TEDxBerkeley Atlas of the Heart – Brené Brown, 2021, brenebrown.com Sonder Playlist - The Best of Sonder – Revive Music, YouTube Awe, the Small Self, and Prosocial Behavior – Paul Piff, 2015, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology The Emotions You've Felt but Never Named with John Koenig – Adam Grant, 2025, ReThinking (Apple Podcasts) The Emotions You've Felt but Never Named with John Koenig (transcript) – Adam Grant, 2025, ReThinking (TED Audio Collective) Developmental Changes in the Relation between Youth Disclosure and Parenting Behavior: A Cohort-sequential Analysis – Sara Goldstein, 2023, Journal of Youth and Adolescence The Development of Children's Knowledge About Inner Speech – John Flavell, 1997, Child Development 9 Words for Types of Parenting – Merriam-Webster, Merriam-Webster Wordplay The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters – Priya Parker, 2018, Riverhead / Penguin Random House The Liking Gap in Conversations: Do People Like Us More Than We Think? – Erica Boothby, 2018, Psychological Science Can Conflict Actually Make Our Relationships Stronger? with Priya Parker (video) – Brené Brown, 2026, YouTube VIBE Tour – Adam Grant, adamgrant.net Adam Grant – Dallas – Dallas Museum of Art Arts & Letters Live – Etix, 2026, Etix ReThinking with Adam Grant – Adam Grant, 2021, TED Audio Collective The Enneagram: A Systematic Review of the Literature and Directions for Future Research – Joshua Hook, 2021, Journal of Clinical Psychology Brian R. Little – Brian Little, brianrlittle.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Nathan Lane. We talk about his critically acclaimed run in death of a salesman, taking his dog to therapy, and winning an Emmy for only murders in the building.

New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers. Welcome to The Curiosity Shop, a show from the Fox Media Podcast Network. Hi, Adam. Hey, Renee.

How are you? I'm excited for this. How are you? I'm excited for this. I am feeling very vibe. I am so vibe. Now I know why Elena, our 15-year-old, says, stop saying vibe, dad. Wow. Did I just catch a stray through you from your daughter? Maybe a little. Collateral damage. Okay. Well,

I love it. I really love it. Thank you. I learned so much. Oh, this is going to be so fun because I'm going to say vibe and vibey 300 times and I'm going to watch you squirm in your discomfort around compliments. This is going to be like my favorite episode. Don't kill the vibe, Brunet. Okay. This is also our last episode of The Curiosity Shop. We are coming to the end of season two, and we have decided that while we will continue to do fun work together, the Curiosity Shop experiment has come to an end.

It's been incredibly fun and one of the best learning experiences of my life. And if our lives were less complex, we would keep doing it. And I think it'll be important for people who've been on this whole journey with us, And we're so grateful for those of y'all who have listened and watched since the beginning. We went into this in tiny experiment mode. Do you think it's fair to say that we overestimated the transferability of our audio-only podcast life and underestimated the complexity of the new podcast environment? Big time.

Yeah. This could be a full-time job. Yeah. Yes. I think that we have an incredible team who, I think, I think, that we have an incredible team who, I think we both want to say we're super grateful to. We made it work, but our calendars are nuts. And audio only gives us the ability to record in a tiny kiosk in an airport somewhere. But that's not the new vibe. Oh, God, I didn't mean to say vibe. That's not the new podcast

environment. So I want to say thank you to you. You have been an incredible co-conspirator, partner, friend, I would say pal, and on many instances, companion, we'll get into those words in a minute. And I've learned a ton about myself and us. Sentiments are mutual. When we first started, there were people who know and love both of us who told us we wouldn't last a season. That's true. That was a lot of them. The betting pools were terrible. Yeah. And yet, here we are finishing season two much closer than we began season one. And I just, I really appreciate how much I've gotten to know you through this project and how much I've learned from you. And I feel like I need to go back and listen or watch.

No, I'll probably listen. I need to go back and listen to a bunch of the episodes because I have not captured all the learnings. Same. And stay tuned at the end of the podcast after we talk about Vibe, which is, the most perfect book for our final episode, because I think we can talk a little bit about what we've learned from each other as we go through this. We will talk about a couple of opportunities to see us together, because we have big plans for the future already about some stuff we're going to do. One of them is my favorite idea of all times in the fact that I'm just going to say three words, but I'm going to hold the rest to after we have our discussion today, Adam Grant.

I never thought that word would be connected to my name, nor did I think I would be the one suggesting it, but here we are. Yes, he did. And after the new year, it'll be Adam Grant, innigram lover. I don't know about that. We'll find out. Might be like her or tolerator. No. Nothing short of lover is going to be enough around the enneagram for me. I'd want this so bad for us. Okay, let's talk about the new book. Okay, I'm going to put you on the spot. First question is a question that I get when I write books that I hate, so I want to ask you, because I am genuinely curious, not just to grill you. Why this book now and how did you get here? So I'm just overjoyed that this book is coming out next week because I started dreaming about it in 2014.

Oh, 12 years ago? Yeah, it was going to be my second book. I wrote Give and Take. I was studying how we build relationships where we can help others. And I started to realize that as much as I wanted to classify some people as givers and others as takers, a lot of those dynamics were relationship specific. And some of the people that I knew is very selfish were generous toward others and vice versa. And so I started thinking then about writing a book about dynamic duos and what does it that makes a paraben thrive?

And I couldn't figure it out. And it kind of stayed in the back of my brain. And fast forward, we're now in a moment where there is a crisis of isolation in many countries around the world. people are spending more time alone than they ever have. A lot of people, I don't need to tell you, are feeling lonely and disconnected. And now we have people turning to chatbots, machines, and calling them AI companions.

That is not companionship. I think all these things came together. And I started feeling like this is the moment to write about connection. And I also realized I've gone through a transformation over this last dozen years where it hit me that I have gone from being a middle schooler who struggled to have conversations with other people

and stumbled my way through a lot of interactions because I was so shy and so introverted to now I have conversations that other people want to listen to even if they're not in them. Apparently I've learned something about how to vibe. And so I think the personal journey, coupled with the state of the world, made me think this is the moment where we need a book about how to spark,

and strengthen and sustain and scale our connections. God, I love that. Okay, and you've done that. One of the things that I love about this book in all your books is kind of the taxonomies that you present and the language that you wrap. Is that? Oh, no, I love it too. It's my favorite thing.

I love doing that. I love doing that too. That's my favorite thing as a researcher is creating taxonomies, not to be confused with taxidermy, which Adam doesn't like. So taxonomies. So, and I have to say that I'm going to just open the book and flip through. Y'all can see that I've got a lot of notes. Okay. When I was reading some of the middle school exchanges that you captured in dialogue, Dude, so cringy. I just, I just, I was thinking to myself,

I in that moment turned into a sweaty palm seventh grader with nowhere to sit. I was just reading them and thinking, I don't like, you know, so one of them is, Adam says, hey, grapes of wrath was the worst book ever. The guy in the literature class says, glad I didn't even do the reading then. Adam says, did you see friends last night? The guy. Yeah, it was funny. Done. End of conversation. I am never going to try to approach an acquaintance again. Yeah. I mean, it was just, okay, the first thing I want to talk about is a taxonomy that you put together that I thought was really interesting because I've always had a shorthand with my sisters when I'm trying to describe a friend. A friend is not a good word. Like, because then my sisters will say, this is what we say.

Makeup counter friend, someone is sick and dying friend. I'm like, oh, God, no, makeup counterfriend. Oh, that's pals and companions. Yes, we could have a really good time, like, wondering through a mall and, like, dabbling in the makeup counter somewhere, but if something, if hard shit's going down, neither one of us are going to call the other one. So tell me about the taxonomy of associates, allies. pals and companions.

And why not only is it okay to have different people and different roles, it creates a much more connected life. Well, I think about associates, allies, pals, and companions

as the four kinds of good relationships in your life. So associates are people who have compatible needs. So you're looking for a painter, you hire a painter. You're looking for a handyman or handywoman and your neighbor has those skills. Your kids need a ride to soccer practice and you've got a friend with kids and you can carpool together, right? Those are all

associates. The exchange is fairly transactional. You're not expecting any kind of emotional connection, but, you know, it's a relationship that serves a purpose for both of you. I think the more meaningful connections are with allies, pals, and companions. So allies are people who share your goals, you're on a mission together. Pals are people who share your interests and hobbies. You have fun together. And companions are people who share your values. You have deep affection for each other. For a long time when people didn't show up in the way that I expected them to, I was disappointed and I even felt, you know, at some level betrayed. Like, I've had experiences of, you know, opening up to people emotionally and then them just, like, not responding with compassion,

not mentioning, like I told somebody about a really painful experience, a loss I had, who I thought was a close friend, and it never came up again. And I was like, wow, not a friend. What I now know is that person was not a good companion for me. But he's a great pal. And we enjoy hanging out together, playing Padell and tennis together. And that's okay. And I think what happens in a lot of our interactions is we,

have a particular expectation that somebody is going to fulfill all the roles or that they're going to play one of them and they don't. And then we just think, okay, that person doesn't care about me. When in fact, they didn't share our expectation. And, you know, somebody was trying to show up as an ally and you wanted them to be a pal. And they're trying to do a task. And you are basically trying to hang out for coffee and you're like ships passing in the night. What happens when two people are cross-purpose on how they think of their relationship. So I'm looking for an associate or an ally, and you're coming at me with real pal and companion energy. So Joanna, my oldest, who you know, she coined a term for this. She calls people palvators. What does that mean?

So a palvator is somebody who is usually an associate, maybe an ally. You have an arm's length relationship with them or you know, you're doing a work task together. And all of a sudden, they try to barge into your personal life. They start texting you to get together for coffee. They want to have lunch. They want to go on vacation together. Whoa. Why did I give you my cell? I am not into this. So what is the solution there? How do you align? I'm going to buy them a copy of vibe and say, see page 24 on taxonomy. I mean, I literally had this conversation with somebody recently. I said, like, I really like you. I don't have time for, for more pals in my life. And if I can be helpful, if I can be supportive, please let me know. Damn, straight up. I like it.

Okay. I mean, the alternative is you start ghosting them and then they take it personally and the relationship fizzles. And look, I think this is way easier in romantic relationships because we have the define the relationship conversation. People say, what are we or what's up with us? And then people used to say, are we going steady or do you like me? Or, you know, are we boyfriend and girlfriend? Or like, are we a couple now? And we just don't have, we don't have social norms for those conversations with non-romantic connections. And I think we should. I think this is one of the big a ha's in the book for me. Tell me. Which is, no, I think this is it, that the taxonomy of meaningful relationships, albeit very different relationships in terms of depth and width. Like, I think this has been helpful for me because, like, when I talk to my kids today, they have a taxonomy for intimate relationships, like, that's so complex. Oh, are they dating? What do you mean?

they're talking. Is that dating? No, no, that's a thing. Okay, so where does it start talking,

a thing, a soft launch, a hard launch. You know, like, so there is a very, I think for self-preservation

reasons and vulnerability reasons. Vulnerability is a birthplace of invention. So in order to limit

discomfort, hurt, hurt. We across time have developed taxonomies for intimate relationships. We have never done that with friendships. And there's so much, if not more, hurt around being cross purposes on that. Yes. And some of it is, I think, there's a ton of pressure we put on close friendships in particular that if we're going to be closed or worse yet, best friends, then we need to be allies, pals, and companions all the time. We need to be each other's go-to for everything, no matter what we need. And that puts a tremendous amount of strain on a friendship.

And one of the things that I've been realizing, as I was writing this book, actually, I realized, wow, I have people that I consider distant companions, which sounds like a paradox, but there are people that I could call and say, hey, I'm really having a hard time grieving, and I know they would show up for me. I have watched them express compassion. I trust them to be a thoughtful person to console me. But we don't interact that much, and I don't know them that well. I have really close pals who I see on a weekly basis.

I have allies that I talk to every day that I would not have that conversation with. And the idea that you can be close in different ways. And I think the idea that you can be close in different ways is important. But then the language, to your point, like, we need to figure out, how to talk about that. And this is my best shot at synthesizing the research and what I've experienced around, like, what are the major different kinds of relationships and roles that we have in our interactions? I think this is really important because I think there's a lot of hurt feelings and a lot of casualties around the lack of rumbling and identifying what are you

looking for in this relationship. And this is, I love it when we spend time doing this together, and I'm not looking for a companion. Like, yeah, I had a lot of distant companions too, where I would pick up the phone, they would drop whatever they're doing, let's go, what does love look like for me right now. So I think this is a pretty serious conversation. I'm not looking for, you know, a BFF from everyone. And that is really important and hard. And I think we're clear in that in the dating world, again, and not so much in friendship world. Support for the show comes from Quince. We all have those fall staples in our closet that we love, the sweater that goes with everything,

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This is one of my favorite topics in the book. Tell me what your favorite. Tell me, I want to hear your reaction to it. I use that word a lot. I just don't think we're on the same wavelength here. Yeah. And you and I've had hard wavelength conversations. Yeah. We have.

Yeah. And I think I was just surprised to see it come up. I was surprised to see you grab it by the shoulders and shake it around a little bit and then befriend it as a way of thinking about connection. It surprised me too. I think I landed on it in part because vibe is a term that calls to mind wavelengths. But also because people often have an interaction that feels great and they mistake that for a certain kind of relationship. And so we could be on the same. wavelength, interacting as pals, having a great time if we ran into each other at a conference, that does not mean we're pals. That doesn't mean we want to start hanging out. It just means that

in the moment we found a common wavelength. And I think in order to build the connection, we then need to either have a bunch of repeated interactions where we're continually on that wavelength. And then we realize this is mutual. We want to have that kind of bond. We want to have that kind of bond. Or, like, we need to have a conversation about where are we headed? How do we want to spend time together? And that is, that's a very different wavelength conversation than the one of just, oh yeah, like we were on the same page because I called you for emotional support and you recognized the vulnerability that I was expressing and responded in kind. And in that moment, we were on the same wavelength. That's very different from, yeah, we're on the same wavelength that we want to be

go-to companions for each other. So I think one of the things that struck me about this, I don't know, maybe my takeaway from the entire book was clarity and agency. I have a clear understanding of what's happening that I could never name and now I've got words for it. And the words that I have for it and the understanding that I have for it now that I didn't have before I read the book. is filling me with a sense of agency about what I can build. And also, what has been important to me,

but has been told to me it's not important, but it was. So let me give you an example. Yeah. Tell me. I flew home. Oh, you and I were both at the same conference in California. And I flew home from that flight sitting next to someone I didn't know very well that I had met. He was at the conference. And it was, you know, at a two and a half, three hour flight from, we were flying out L.A.X back into Austin. And we were vibing. Our wavelength was, if a wavelength is guitar strings, this was a 12-string guitar. I mean, we were kind of the same age, kids getting married, laughing so much that other people from the company, from, he works with Better Up. Other people from Better Up were like, do we need to separate the two of y'all? I mean, we were hooting and hollering. And I mean, let me tell you something, I didn't get my laptop out or work on a flight for three hours.

Like, it was just, yeah, I mean, we were showing each other pictures, we were telling stories, we were laughing about stuff. And we haven't talked since then. And I think one of the things that one message that society gives us is that that didn't mean anything. Because are y'all like super best friends? Are y'all BFFs now? No, we jammed for three hours. And in some material way, that made my life better. That made my life better. Like, no, I haven't seen him since then or talked to him.

And I didn't follow up with a text that said, hey, do you want to go grab a burger? Like, we both have big lives and kids and jobs. But the importance of that conversation should not be diminished, even though I had a very vibey 12-string guitar wavelength conversation. for someone for three hours, it made things better for me in my life. And I don't know why or how, but after reading this book, I feel like it. That's such a good point. And it's an interesting example. So in Fight Club, that person would be called a single serving friend, right? Same one. That was somebody who fulfilled a purpose in a moment. You're both kind of unplugging

from this conference. And seeking a certain kind of connection. It sounds like you had a great pal vibe. and maybe there was some allieship going on too. Yeah. That doesn't mean you need him in that role repeatedly in your life. You can have the high quality interaction in the moment without it leading to a bond, and that's okay. And I think we live in a world that says exactly as you were foreshadowing. If you don't follow up, you are failing that interaction.

But the interaction served its purpose. It does not need to turn into an ongoing relationship unless there is an ongoing relationship. unless there is an ongoing need for the two of you to solve each other's problems or to play pickleball together or to be supportive of each other. And I think we need to normalize that. I think we know there's a mountain of evidence that having that kind of high quality interaction boosts our well-being. It makes us happier in the moment. It leaves us feeling more connected after the fact. And that doesn't mean we need to have follow-up conversations. Yeah, and it's interesting because it's like if I see him again, I'll be excited to see him again and give him a big hug and, you know, God, that plane ride was so fun. But I think in addition to everything you're saying, I just want people who are listening and watching to know that it matters.

You know, I've had conversations like that with strangers on a plane or, you know, at an airport or I just think knowing that I can vibe with someone I don't know. and have a meaningful connection that can be just that, can be enough and is a contribution to a better life. Does that make sense? Like, it was a big takeaway from me in this book. It does make sense. I think we don't value good interactions enough. No, we don't because they're so rare.

They are too rare. But I think we also, like, we do them a disservice because we, yeah, we think that, like, an interaction is a stepping stone to a relationship. And if it doesn't go there, it wasn't worth it. Yes, that's it. That's it. That's it. We have slowly uncovered what it is. Why did we not talk about this while I was writing the book? Because this would have been a great point to make in it and is now missing from vibe. But we should value interactions as ends in and of themselves, not just means to the end of a relationship. And to go back to the different wavelengths, I think we are better at doing this with pals, probably than any other category.

Because I believe that's true. When you're interacting with a pal, you are just there to live in the moment together. You want to laugh at the same joke. You want to enjoy the same karaoke experience together. You want to have something fun together that allows you to be in the flow of the experience. I think with the other three wavelengths, there's a goal attached. You need something from an associate. You're trying to accomplish something with an ally. And you're also seeking something from a companion. So I wonder if part of the antidote to this problem is to say,

look, I'm good at having pal interactions that are just enjoyable. And I don't expect anything out of them at the end of them. What if I applied that lens to companion, and associate interactions too. Wow. Never thought about this until right now. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm thinking to myself, not that I want to bring anything back

to the UT Ohio State game because I'm not that petty, but this is weird. This is what I was thinking the whole time I was reading this and then it forced me into rereading chapters again is I want to think about in my life that I have a little coin purse and that I've only thought about the way to fill that

coin purse before I read the book was really just companions. And I put a lot of pressure on myself. Like, I put a lot of pressure on myself that even associates, if I don't turn them into companions, I have failed somehow or it's not, you know. And now I have a coin purse, and I was thinking about my flight home from the conference in California. I was also thinking about the people who are sitting next to us during the UT, Ohio State game in the stadium. They were, we vibed. And it was, like, we didn't vibe with the drunken people on one side of us or the hateful people on the other side. But the people behind us, we kind of vived with.

And we were high-fiving every great thing. and we were running analysis. And I thought, you know, I got off the plane and my coin purse was a little heavier. I got out of the UT game. My coin purse was a little heavier. And there's something I'm exercising around wavelength and connection and vibe

even if that's the extent of it. And I don't think I thought about that before the book. Oh, that's so interesting. Okay, so two thoughts on that. The first one is, Renee, so you show up bit of football game and there are rituals built to make you allies because you're rooting for the same team and probably rooting against the same team too and to make you pals in the moment or at least have you interact like pals because it's fun to cheer and celebrate and you know and joke around

and five yeah and that brings me the second point which is I didn't realize until I finished writing vibe that we need all of these relationships in our lives and Yet we differ in what we tend to seek out and offer to other people. I think this is actually missing from the book. But right after I turned it in, I wrote a little quiz to help people assess how they vibe. And as I was writing it, I realized, okay, wait, some people naturally seek out allyship. Others, their immediate go-to way of interacting with others is to try to be pals. And some go right to companionship. And as you were saying this, I realized, oh, you are a companion person. person. That is your default way of interacting with other people. And it actually, it gave me a new lens on how our enemies to allies, to PAL's companion's journey has gone, and also on why it's so difficult for you to have parasycial relationships with people in the world. So can I riff on both of those really quickly and get your reaction? You can, but I'm already objecting to the premise, but go ahead. Oh, I mean, of course you will. Now, I'm objecting to the companionship.

is my default. Maybe it's not your default. Maybe that's the wrong word. Let me try a different frame of that and just tell me, tell me what you think it is. Maybe it's that you are unusually good at companionship and most people aren't. And so they seek that from you and you get, you get stuck in that role. Yes. Yeah, that is 100% correct.

So Adam, Adam Grant's analyzing me, folks, just turn up the dial, pull over if you're driving, stop walking. Okay, so say it again, but with that caveat, because I, I think I am a pal lover. Yes. With ally rising. Yep. And I end up with companion expectations, which just makes me not leave the house. Ding, ding, ding, ding, jackpot. Okay. That's exactly. You said it way better than what I was trying to get to, which is, I think this is a big part of why it's so hard for you to have parisocial relationships where people know your work. And therefore, when they meet you, they are seeking an instant companion. They've already felt seen by you, emotionally supported by you. And that's a lot of pressure to put on you. That's a huge burden to be a companion to someone who to you is a stranger,

even if they feel like they know you. That's true. That's a little bit true. And I am really just hardwired pal and my love language as a power. Pau is shit talk. And so, you know, that's my, that's my pal language. It's so interesting because when I meet someone for the first time who immediately thinks I'm going to be a companion, a receiver of hard information, a caregiver for hard information, and I immediately go into some like fun kind of bullshit Texas pal language, they're devastated. Yeah. You've totally let them down. You've violated their expectations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's interesting. Okay. So that, that's fascinating. I, I realized actually when I took my own quiz,

have you taken the quiz? I haven't taken the quiz yet. Okay, we need to get your results. We'll talk about doing the Enneagram episode. Yeah, we might come back then. I'm sure this will find its way in. But so I took the assessment and I came out as ally as my default. I am always trying to figure out, what is your challenge? How can I help you achieve your goals? Are there goals that we could pursue together? That checks out. That checks out.

Completely. But I love being pals, but I've underinvested in it because it doesn't feel productive. I'm like, what am I adding here? How am I being useful? Fun. And yeah, no, I just need to have more of it, clearly. But it gave me a new lens on our kind of repair of our rift. because...

Say more. Well, tell me if this resonates or not. So I've now told the story in the book, you now know it, the full story of the work that I did with the U.S. women's national soccer team. Yes. And it was during COVID. And I was supposed to help them vibe and build their culture. And some of them were really skeptical that culture mattered. And they said this is all about skills on the field, not about whether we like each other off the field, which I partially agree with.

And some of them were just really skeptical. Like, what is it? Male social scientists going to teach us. And I just needed a way to have that conversation with them that was going to get people to open up, both their minds and their hearts. And so I said, okay, let's do a speaker series. My vision was, I'm going to invite some world-class people to come in virtually. I'll facilitate a conversation. You can do a Q&A with them.

And I asked them to nominate their favorites. And Brunay, you were the first name mentioned and you were the most popular guest. hands down. And I had never thought about it until now. But I don't think that interaction between you and me would have worked if I had asked you to be a companion. And I had called and I'd said, hey, Brunay, like, I'm really struggling to get through to this world-class group of female athletes.

That would have been yet another burden in your life. But this little allyship commitment of you saying, hey, it's just an hour. Our goals are aligned here. I want to see the women's national team win a world championship, and I can help with that. It felt like the right wavelength to start on. It's so interesting because I think if you would have called and asked for companionship, I would have given it to you for sure and happily because this is what's weird, and this is what I really appreciate about our friendship is...

sometimes I can have conversations with you that I can't have with anyone else in the world because we do the same thing. And I think if you would have called me and said that, I would have been like, oh, God, that's so hard I've been there. And have you tried this? Because I am so desperate to talk to someone that has some of my shared experiences. Like I think we talked about this one time where I can just call and you can say, how was the event? And I was like, oh my God, they couldn't get the house lights above 50. I couldn't see anyone's face. I didn't know if it was landing.

And then this happened. And then we got this weird thing here. And you're like, oh, man, did this and this fall out? And like, yes. And so there's very few people I can do that with. I mean, party of one. You know, other people can be empathetic, but they can't. They haven't lived it.

They haven't lived it. They haven't had a shared lived experience there. And so I think if you would have asked me for companionship there, the unique nature of our friendship and what we have shared would have done it, I just don't think you would have ever asked me because I don't think we would have had a foundation for it. No, we didn't. I couldn't have made the ask because we'd met once and then had that really, really unpleasant set of exchanges. But I also think what you're saying is we had a foundation of allyship built in. Like we were already allies in the sense that we were trying to help people and organizations in the same ways. And so like as authors, as speakers, as advisors, whatever we call the other work we do trying to fix problems in organizations. We already had a mission that we shared.

And that was a reason to interact. Yeah. And I would have been selfless and selfish. I would have been selfless because I would have wanted to help and selfish because I would have been like, I don't know. what do you think? What do you do in those situations? Those are the worst, especially when people don't even understand why you're there. And there's no business case for you being there in the minds of a lot of people that are just like, this is what happens on the pitch. This is the ability to stay on the ball, move the ball, turn the ball. This has nothing to do whether I hate these people or not.

You know, like, oh, that's the worst. You know, so I would have been excited to talk to you about it. Is companionship sort of stemming from being outless? That's it. And I would have had no interest in power with you on it. None. And that has changed so much. much. You said to me, why aren't you calling us pals? Aren't we pals? First of all, as the British would say, good on you, Bray Brown. Good for you to call that out. Thank you. I think that's, we have not had this conversation yet. I left it hanging because I thought it would be fun to talk about in the podcast. I think we're not fully pals because we have never hung out without a purpose. We have never gotten together just to have fun. We are always solving a problem. We are always

solving a problem, like making sense of a shared experience, you know, talking through something challenging emotionally. There is always, we are always allies and or companions. And I think a true pal, like, you just shoot the shit together. Or like, we're just playing pickle together. And because that hasn't happened, I don't know that we're pals yet. But aren't we concerned that if we did something that was pali together, like pickleball, our ping pong. that we would get in a fist fight? I think I have enough faith in us at this point. Maybe before we started the Curiosity Shop, that was a risk.

I would bargain with the devil to beat you in a sport. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm hearing a little insecurity coming out there. Why is it so important to you to beat me at a paddle sport? Because I think I'm past that. I could accept if you beat me at ping pong. I mean, I share that.

I could accept if I beat you. you too. But you know what? I am paling with you right now. This is happening in real time because this is my shit talk. If I didn't think of as pals, I wouldn't be like threatening traction to beat you. So that's, I think that's what's happening. Oh, that's so interesting. This is very meta. So for whatever it's worth. People are like, what the fuck are they talking about? I'm just imagining. I think it should be ping pong because that's the real head-to-head. And also, you're less likely to get injured trying to beat me there than on a pickle court.

Do you play a flat game or a spinning game? Much more flat. You? I play a flat. Okay, yeah, flat. Let's go. Okay. I think we need to do this.

And I think here's my ideal scenario. It's a 21-19 game. It's a close match. We're equally skilled. And I think we care less about the outcome. than the quality of the rallies. Oh, that's sweet. And also, I have 21 and you have 19.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah, I know. Oh, boy, is that the ping pong paddle, calling the ping pong paddle? I mean, we have to... I am, for sure, but we have to quit the podcast

in order to remove... Like, right now, we're paling, but we're also creating a show together and finishing a show together. And so once we're not doing a podcast together, If we play ping pong, we're pure pals. But I guess what you're saying is, we are pals along with our, like, ally and companion connection, and that's okay, and I'm good with that.

I'm going to consider that a win. Okay. Always keep in score. This is why. This is why we're pals. Okay, I want to know, oh, my, this was my big question. Your new favorite word, Sonder. Oh, I love this word.

so much, so much. John Koenig coined it. He is an inventor of emotion words that we've experienced but don't know how to name. And this is like, I mean, I can't think of anything that appeals more to my inner nerd than the center of the Venn diagram of psychology and linguistics. Oh, me, God, me too. You wrote a whole Atlas of the Heart to do exactly that. Like, this is our jam. This is our jam. Sonder. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's become a cultural, it's a thing. Like, there are bands called Sonder now. There are people who use it in conversation.

I had never heard of it until a former student introduced me to it. After a class one day, she's like, there's a word for that thing we were talking about. So, John defines Sonder. I'm going to paraphrase here, but he defines it as the sadness that you feel when you realize that every single person you meet has lived an entire. life of heartbreaks and dreams and experiences as rich and complicated as your own, and you will never know them. God, it's such a good word. And I love the definition, Brune. It's so profound. I love everything about it, except I don't think it's sadness. For me, when I feel, like, every time I feel Sonder, it is a reminder that human beings are 3D, that they exist in many shades

of gray. And there's so much I don't know about even my oldest, closest, allies, palis, companions. But it's also a great reminder to get to know my new associates or my kind of distant allies on a more human level. And I think Sonder is one of the most beautiful parts of the human experience that if you can recognize that everybody you meet has actually experienced the same level of inner drama and turmoil and sort of technicolor life that you have, it's hard not to find something that you can vibe on. Yeah, I think it's a beautiful word. I had a hard time connecting it with grief or sadness.

To me, like when I feel Sonder, I feel wonder. Yes. I feel awe. Aw. Yeah. Aw and wonder. were the words that came up for me. So awe as a reminder of smallness in a big universe

and wonder as something that drives curiosity and humility. Well, maybe then Sonder should be pronounced Sunder, like wonder. I think it's a beautiful word. I feel that too. It is such a prompt for curiosity to feel Sonder. Like, oh, there's so much, like there's so much. that you have experienced and thought and felt, and I want to understand it all. I did a rethinking podcast with John about this because I wanted to understand what is it for him that's sad about it?

And he said, the sadness for him comes into knowing that he will never fully know somebody else's experience. And he will never, he'll never fully know a person. And he'll also never fully be known. And I thought, yeah, but isn't that part of the beauty and mystery of humans that you can be married to somebody for decades and still be discovering new things about them? That you can have a childhood friend that knows you better than anybody at some level. And yet it's completely transforming before your eyes. I think that's part of the magic of human existence. Yeah, I just, I remember talking to Steve. I didn't have the word Sonder, but I remember talking to Steve when Ellen, our oldest, started fourth grade.

And there's something really, really significant that happens with eight to 10-year-olds, where it's the first time they're building an internal world of, like, to use your phrases, technicolor, heartbreak, love, excitement, devastation that you will not know as her parent. And I remember there was a grief attached to that for me. You have an internal landscape now that belongs to no one but you. And I will hopefully have the privilege of you sharing stories about that landscape with me. But I will not have access to those rooms. Oh, we need a word for this, Brune. This is a parenting experience that I never heard anyone else describe.

Allison and I talked about it. We felt it earlier. We felt it when we first dropped Joanna off at preschool. She was three years old, and one of us had been present for essentially every moment of her life. And to know now that she was going to go and have interactions and experiences that we wouldn't understand and be able to support her through. It was, I used the term grief. We were losing something.

We were letting go. And the part that hit me the hardest was knowing that she would have experiences she wouldn't remember and then we would never even find out about them. And that was so hard, but it was also at the beginning of learning how to send a kid off to college. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, they have to have those rooms that only they occupy and assign meaning to and they decorate those rooms with their own pictures of heartbreak and hope and possibility and crushes. And I think for me, I think it was third or fourth grade because it was the first time that the report home had shortcuts. where she had attached meaning to things and they weren't fully descriptive and we didn't help her make meaning

of what she experienced. She had her own portrait of meaning, you know, and it's like there is, that's what I thought about when I read Sonder. That's so powerful. It is hard. I think it's such a valuable learning experience though. I think

what you just made me think about was the core of the feeling was, oh no, she's not going to need me anymore. And that was painful. And then I woke up one morning and realized, I don't need to be needed. I just want to be valued and appreciated. My job as a parent is to raise strong, independent kids who can trust their own judgment.

And if they still need me, I'm going to be a helicopter parent or a snowplow parent. I don't want to be hovering. I don't want to be clearing the path. I want to prepare our kids for the path. And I think that's, like, it's a little bit humbling to say, wow, like this child that has depended on me to survive no longer needs me. And that's a good thing. That is a sign of their growth.

I always say the hardest thing about parenting is it's just a lifelong series from the very, from the minute they enter the world to the time that we die, it's just a series of contractions, of holding on tight and letting go, holding on tight and letting go, holding on tight and letting go, and all the beauty and all the pain and all the pushing and all the welcoming and all the leaving. It's just, yeah, I thought about parenting a lot when I was reading vibe. It was powerful. Okay, here's my last question for you around this, and it's a big one. It's a two-parter.

What do you know now that rearranged your previous thinking? and how has that changed the way you show up and actually behave? Like, what are one or two things that this really, this rearranged some things for me? Like, if a good book doesn't rearrange furniture in my mind, then I don't really put it in the good book category. I put it in the interesting maybe, but if it has to move some shit around where I'm like,

ugh, I'm going to stumble, I'm going to hit my pinky toe on this because it's in a new place now. That's a good book to me. What got rearranged for you and why? and how are you doing things differently because of it after having written it? Oh, there's so much. I think part of the fun of writing the book was it was a chance to reexamine the way that I approach all my interactions and relationships and ask, you know, what makes sense and what doesn't? And I think one of probably the biggest changes for me is I've been really grappling for a long time now with the dilemma of not having enough time for all the people who matter to me.

And I think it's one of the reasons that I've defaulted to allyship because you can be a good ally who parachutes in without having to spend a ton of time in companionship or a lot of time just kind of catching up as pals. And I've realized that that has stunted my relationships in certain ways because I've been closed off. Like even if I'm not going to be regular pals or companions with someone, I can still interact on those wavelengths. And I think that's been a big shift. And I think one of the places that it landed me was it led me to realize that one of the solutions to my problem is, like, I need to do this more at scale. Not every relationship needs to be one-on-one. There can be people who I think are amazing allies or pals or companions, and I can get together with them in a group setting. I have started doing so many more when I travel.

I'm coming to your city. And I would love to see you. And what I'm going to do instead of just suggesting that we have, have dinner is I'm going to invite my eight favorite people who I would love for you to meet. And we're all going to pal around at that dinner. And then that's going to keep us connected. But you also have made some new friends. And I brought some people into your life. And the two of you or the three of you updating me is going to be an occasion now for all of us to stay in touch. I think that's been a big shift. It's also, it's led me to do a lot more

organizing of gatherings to say, if I could bring all of the people that I think are exceptional allies and pals and companions together, we can all try to support each other. And I think maybe the biggest, the biggest of, sorry, no, I'll pause there. There's one maybe bigger effect than that, but that's just been a shift in the way that I navigate a lot of my interactions. I love this. There's a lot of learning in that for me. Tell me this last one, because I saw you getting ready to say another one. What's the, is this the, big one? Well, I don't know if it's the big one. I think it's the most fundamental one, which is I think that I've become much more attuned to what kind of interaction or connection

are other people looking for. Instead of just defaulting to how can I be a good ally, I'm just trying to pay attention in every interaction I have to is the other person or are the other people? Are they in need of companionship right now? Can I add more to their life by being a fun pal and just distracting them from the hard thing in their situation, or is this actually the right moment for me to be an ally and try to help? And one of my hopes, as, like, as Vibe comes out of the world, is that people will recognize this language. And I would love to be able to use this a shorthand and just say, hey, Brunay, like, you texted me and you said, hey, like, this was hard. I would love to be able to say, hey, Brune, like, are you looking for a pal, come?

companion or ally right now. How can I best show up for you? Yeah. I don't know. It's like it's a very, it's a very ballsy move to invite the world to have the same kind of conversations we have and about, you know, intimate relationships with friendships. And I do think it's not frictionless, what you are suggesting by default has some friction in it. And friction is where real relationships are made, where real connections happen. That's why people go to the chat box because it's frictionless, but it's not real.

Like, no one's going to hold your hair back when you're throwing up in chemo. No chat box is going to do that. You know, it's just... And so I like the fact that we're worth the friction. The relationships are worth the friction. And that naming things and clarity leads to closeness

in all four of these closeness, you can be a close ally and a close pal and a close companion and a close associate. Like, I have close associates. Me too. Yeah. And so, because I was thinking what word would I use for vibe? And closeness came up for me just because to me, and connection is important, regardless of what we're looking to build here together.

Yes, for me too. And I think this is such an interesting, revelation or realization, it's an aha moment for me. I think a lot of people are afraid of friction. I think they're afraid of rejection of putting themselves out there and being vulnerable and saying, I want to be a pal. And what if the other person doesn't reciprocate? They're afraid of the conflict that might arise of it leading to a fight and maybe damaging the relationship. And I think what I have realized, not just from the evidence, but also through living this, is if your interactions cannot withstand friction, you don't have a relationship to begin with. It's a charade. Friction is the prerequisite for a vibe. It is the prerequisite for connection. Friction is the prerequisite for meaningful relationship.

You know, I'm thinking about an associate, which you gave like a handy woman or somebody, if that can, can't make it under, hey, I think we were not aligned on what we wanted to get done here and this is what it was and this is how much I thought it was going to cost, then I'm going on to the next person. Like, that's over. And so I'm thinking about our conversation with Priya. Yeah, me too. Parker about how the willingness to be in friction and kind of stay in the heat a little bit, I can see how we're lonely if we spend every waking moment avoiding friction. Yeah, and I think, I don't think you and I would have any kind of ongoing relationship if we hadn't both been willing to brave the unpleasantness and the awkwardness

of talking through a lot of our differences, a bunch of our disagreements, and doing that saying, I want to have this conversation because I care about our relationship and I care about you. I agree. I mean, our relationship was forged and born in friction. And then we got really, it was interesting because I think both Allison and Steve, our partners were like, oh my God, you have to have a hard conversation with Bray and or Adam tomorrow. And we're both like, yeah, we come out of those fine. We come out of those better than we go into them. I'm good. I was happy to read in vibe that I am credited with the longest text conversation of your life. Multiple, in fact. I think the leaderboard is just Brene, Brene, Brene, Brene, Brene, Brene, Brene, Brene, Brene.

as every leaderboard should be. Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for the exploration. Thank you for the language. There are uncomfortable parts of it for me when I was reading it. I was like, oh, you don't want this to be true. But that's really, you're good at that. Should we tell people where they can find us together in the future?

Yeah, I am tremendously excited for October 28th when we will be on stage in Dallas together for the Vibe book tour. and we would love to see a bunch of curiosity shoppers. They're not shoppers. No. Curiosity shop. Shoppies. Shoppins?

No. Now, whatever we call our folks, anybody who is in the neighborhood, we will be live in Dallas. And you can find the tour info in the show notes if you want to come and see us. Love it. I'm excited for that. And we may turn that into a podcast. for rethinking at a future date. Yes, for sure.

And I'm also excited, Brene, to have you on in 2027 on rethinking when we are, and I cannot believe, I still cannot accept that this was my idea. We're going to talk about the Enneagram, which I've never taken. I'm going to take it. And then I'm going to try to link it to modern personality science and figure out if we can put some evidence behind what I trust for. from you and also from some research Brian Little did is actually a tool that is not at odds with the best data about how we all differ from each other.

I mean, modern science is going to fall short of the Enneagram, but I am going to be here for you to pick you up companion style and walk you through the power of the enneagram. And I have a guess what your number is, but I'm not supposed to guess because I'm a number one and I'm like bossy like that. I'm also often right about 95% of the time, but I'm excited about that. Well, and I'm going to be a good ally in saying, Brene, there are some things missing from the enneagram

that we have decades of evidence on, and I would really like the tool to keep up with the data. The only thing missing from the enneagram, Adam Grant, is you. So once you come aboard, we're going to crush it. This has been such a fun experience. For me too, it's, it's been one of the more challenging experiments I've ever run. For sure.

And I think building a podcast while we were making it and also building a vibe while we were making it, we took on a lot. And I feel like I'm better for it. And I think we're better for it, too. And that's been a great gift and just an incredible growth experience for me. Thank you. Well, I feel the exact same way. You're welcome from me to our team that beared witness and put this thing out every week as we were learning how to vibe and how to do a podcast in a world where podcasting has radically changed since we understood what we were getting into. Thank you to the team. And you'll see us together again, I'm sure. Maybe paling around. You're going down, Brown. You wish.

Just remember, just keep that vision in mind of the leaderboard. Brown, Brown, Brown. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Bray Brown Education and Research Group and granted productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.com. In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees earn an average of over $26 an hour. Employees also have the opportunity to grow their skills and their paycheck

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