The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant - What Chimpanzees Reveal About How We Connect and Divide

Starting point is 00:00:00 Today on The Curiosity Shop, you're going to meet some interesting characters. You're going to meet Gus, an awkward teen who's having a tough time finding his way with some of the tougher guys in the group. You're going to meet Christine, who has a new baby named Isabel, and an older daughter named Nadine. You're going to see Nadine's frustration. We're going to talk about that, about having a little baby in the neighborhood now who's getting all the attention. We're also going to talk about Jackson, 31-year-old alpha of the group who is currently being challenged by a new very aggressive male. Who are these folks? These are members of one of the largest chimpanzee communities in the world. And on The Curiosity Shop this week, we're talking to anthropologists and primatologist, Dr. Aaron Sandell

Starting point is 00:00:47 about what he and his colleagues have learned about alliances, social structures, and the violence that can tear communities apart. The story of the Ngogo Chimps is the subject of the Netflix documentary Chimp Empire. Today, as humans navigate war, polarization, and growing distrust, we'll ask Aaron what we might be able to learn from the Chimson and Gogh about how social bonds are built, how they break, and why they're so critical to holding communities together. Welcome to The Curiosity Shop. A show from the Fox Media Podcast Network. So today, Adam and I are both excited on losing my mind. We have Dr. Aaron's. Sandell. He's an associate professor in anthropology at the University of Texas at Austin. He is co-director of the Ngogo Chimpanzee project. He received his Ph.D. in anthropology from, I'm going to have to give

Starting point is 00:01:44 this to Adam, the University of Michigan. There you go. I'm giving it to you. He studies our closest ape relatives to understand social bonds and the emotions that animate them. Since 2012, he has studied wild chimpanzees at Nengogo in Uganda. We're excited. We're excited. he's here. Let's bring them on. First of all, welcome. Thank you. And I hope you've cleared your calendar because I am in full, look it, I can't even take it. I'm in full on five-year-old kindergartner mode. I have questions about questions. Perfect. I mean, Bray, you've been talking about chimps and wanted to do an episode on chimps since before we had a podcast together. Okay, so let's start with what's on your website. I love this. So on your website, you write,

Starting point is 00:02:30 are facing crises of loneliness, polarization, and conflict. Why? Part of the problem is that we don't fully understand the nature and importance of the social bonds that hold communities together. You write, I study our closest ape relatives to understand social bonds and the emotions that animate them. I have studied chimpanzees in Uganda since 2012, including a rare violent conflict between chimpanzees. I am expanding my research now to mountain gorillas and humans. I love this. You write, I draw from evolutionary biology, anthropology, and psychology, and I use a range of tools including network analyses, machine learning, and interchronology to understand how social bonds are formed, maintained, and sometimes fall apart. Let me ask you this question. I have so many questions.

Starting point is 00:03:21 Like, I want to know if Abram's still leading the pack over there, or if he ever really fully took his role as the alpha. Can we just start there? Yeah, Abrams in the central group. He should be still the alpha. Yeah, he fully became the alpha because Chimp Empire was filmed mostly around 2021. And that was right as he was sort of trying to establish himself. I don't want to give spoilers.

Starting point is 00:03:51 I mean, there's going to be a lot of spoilers that we discussed today for those who haven't seen Chimp Empire. But, yeah, he became the alpha of the central group. And there's not a lot of competition there. So he's been able to hold that position. I had an over under on Gus coming out and whooping some Abrams' ass and taking over. Because, look, I had to call my husband like five times, and he's like, get off the chimp empire. No, I love that.

Starting point is 00:04:20 Yeah, Gus's great chimp, didn't have a chance at Alpha, though. In my opinion, great. He's sensitive, grooming. He was a great older brother. He was a good younger brother. But, yeah, doesn't have the same suite of traits, I think. That would lead someone to become alpha. Okay, wait a minute.

Starting point is 00:04:45 Back up, Aaron, because I think I'm the stand-in for the audience today. I have not seen Chimp Empire. Who are Abram and Gus? What am I missing? These are some of the young adults and adolescents. and male chimps in one of the chimpanzee groups at Ngogo, which is this population of chimpanzees in the middle of Kibali National Park in Western Uganda.

Starting point is 00:05:09 This is a huge chunk of forest, especially for anywhere in Uganda or East Africa. It's this big chunk of forest. It's been really well protected. The Uganda Wildlife Authority has been protecting this chunk of forest, and it's been a national park for over 30 years. And the Ngogo chimpanzees are in the middle

Starting point is 00:05:28 that park. So they're surrounded on all sides by other forests. They're surrounded by other chimpanzee groups. So we really get to see a lot of their natural behavior as they would interact with each other, but also with chimps from other outside groups. And we will discuss, I think this will come up a lot, is the dynamics among these two groups adding go-go. But chimp empire follows these two neighboring chimpanzee groups. Abrams was this young adult male who was rising in the dominance hierarchy in the central group. Gus was this adolescent male. He was sort of living his best life in the central group. I just feel like the documentary and what you're studying explains so much. I got to ask you this. When you think there are lessons about loneliness and

Starting point is 00:06:18 polarization and conflict that we as humans can learn from primates, I think did you set out to study, did you set out to be a primatologist so you could learn about us from them? Or did you observe, was this an a priori kind of thing? Or did you observe them and like, oh man, we've got some lessons we can learn here? It's a good question. I'm a sort of, on the one hand, a rare case but sort of common. I think in animal behavior in primatology where this was a lifelong dream to study apes in the wild. Since I was five, I wanted to study gorillas.

Starting point is 00:06:58 It was like childhood dream, age five, got a stuffed animal gorilla, got hooked, completely hooked at age five. All my sort of creative energy since age five was going into thinking about wild apes. Wow. And so then this, I mean, my classmates in second grade, they called me gorilla. Even my teacher let me sign my name on my papers as gorilla. I was obsessed. And then, so like fast forward in college, I sort of got more interested in human evolution and ape evolution. But really, at that point, I was interested in gorilla behavior just because I had this lifelong passion for gorillas.

Starting point is 00:07:41 And I'd spent time at the zoo throughout high school in Boston. So I developed this interest in gorillas just for their own sake, just the sort of beauty of the natural world, the complexity of their lives, even in their sense. subtleties. And then, so I was really almost interested in humans insofar as they could help me understand gorillas. Yeah. It was like a little flip from the typical biological anthropologist evolutionary sort of framework where we're trying to understand humans. It was flipped for me, but then I got interested in humans too. I thought, I mean, humans are fascinating, obviously. And I got really excited by thinking about humans and our closest relatives, chimps, gorillas, bonobos. And then I really got interested in chimps.

Starting point is 00:08:28 I think it was college where I shifted. I got interested in more of these questions of social bonds, cooperation, aggression to some extent, dominance relationships. And then I did that for my PhD studying chimps at Ngogo. And I got on this sort of chimp track and started studying their social relationships. They're sort of asking, initially it was asking the question, do they have what we can really call friendship? That was the main motivation and how did these relationships develop.

Starting point is 00:08:59 And then in studying that, I became more interested in these broader themes of emotions, loneliness, and then conflict. And I would say just the connection to emotions in particular was when thinking more deeply about friendship. Like how do we define friendship in chimps? We have to figure out how we define it in humans. These are concepts that we borrow from understanding our own lives. and I came to realize, really, the way to understand a social bond or a friendship is about how we feel in those relationships. It's not necessarily just based on behavior alone. I don't think you could usually figure out or two people friends based on that.

Starting point is 00:09:39 It's about their emotions. So then I said, okay, this is sort of fast-forwarding to where I'm at now. I'm like, how do we study emotions then in chimps? And then I was like, oh, let me just go to the psychologists and figure out how we study in humans. And then I realize that that's maybe a complicated question, even just for humans. So I've been excited by thinking how do we actually study emotions across species. But it's really this back and forth. I think I'm always still interested in what can I learn about humans from studying chimps.

Starting point is 00:10:13 What can I learn about chimps from thinking more about humans? How many questions do you have right now, Bray? Oh, my God. I want you to write an Atlas of the Heart. for the chimpanzees. I'm thinking, okay, here's what I'm thinking. Let me get focused. I'm so excited. Okay. You know why we had you on now? This is crazy. We had you on now because huge World Cup fans, we watched all of it, and then we interviewed a lot of people about the World Cup. And one of the things that happened with Raj Bennett, with Rebecca Lowe, with John Green, the author, is we got to

Starting point is 00:10:47 this question with the World Cup every time, can there be a we without, a them and is the strength of the we and the sense of belonging and community does it require an enemy and so you know like my enemy from this past weekend would be Newcastle where I ended up with a draw as a Liverpool fan so this is why I wanted to talk to you and what I'm really mad about to be honest with you is they have plenty of fruit the Western and the Central have plenty of fruit. This is like authoritarianism to me. Plenty of fruit, plenty of space. They do not need to go all alpha male all the time. It is an inherently broken part of human. I mean, something is wrong. Can I just build on that? So I have, I guess, the same puzzle, which is we normally think about

Starting point is 00:11:42 conflict emerging from resource scarcity and two groups fighting over is something that they both want. But to Renee's point, that's not the case here. Why are these chimps at war? Right. These are great questions. The us versus them. And then why did these chimpanzee groups, or are they engaged in this lethal conflict that's been going on since 2018, essentially?

Starting point is 00:12:09 I think, I mean, this is again where I think chimpanzees can inform some of these questions about human behavior. Okay. And I would say, I mean, my sort of hot take based on analyzing data on chimpanzees, watching chimpanzees and really studying this conflict, which we should talk about because Chimp Empire is one of this amazing documentary. It's probably the most accurate wildlife documentary ever made that I've seen because it's just really just telling the true story. In some cases, they simplify things because there's no way you could tell in four episodes. Right. The complexity is a story. They make a few simplifications for the viewer, but it's just really following the lives of the chimps.

Starting point is 00:12:59 And it's not, but in the documentary, one thing, it's important to note. It's talking about the conflict between the Western group and the central group. What it doesn't really emphasize is that this used to be one group. I mean, in the documentary, they don't feature that prominently. So it's an even more complex dynamic when we see that they're fighting and the Western chimps are attacking and killing chimps from the central group. So there's an interesting thing there. My hot take is I don't think you need an enemy to build community. I don't think you needed them for an us.

Starting point is 00:13:30 And this is something, this is sort of a hypothesis I have from watching the chimpanzees. And we can, I think, unpack that later. But the main thing, I mean, there's the dominance dynamics. Those are all within a group. Whether you like Abrams or Jackson and the Damasarchy, that's the within group dynamics and then they're the between group dynamics. And it's not necessarily clear how these are directly related because usually despite competition within a group, they all come together. They sort of put aside their differences to patrol the borders of their territory, defended against outsider chimp groups. and even to go on the offensive and go into the outsider group territory.

Starting point is 00:14:15 But the main interesting dynamic for me is that the Western and Central groups used to be one community. They were one group for decades and decades, as long as they've been studied since 1995, 93. They were one group, and we only really saw signs of this polarization occurring around 2015. And then they became two separate groups in 2018. Why? Why? Yeah, what happened? Men, boys, male, males. Well, this is where I think on the one hand, there's definitely something about the dominance hierarchy that's relevant here. Just one thing important to note with chimps, the adult male chimps form a dominance hierarchy,

Starting point is 00:15:00 and they tend to be higher ranking than all the adult females. this is something that sort of happens during adolescence. And it's not exactly clear what the point of being an alpha is for a chimp. I mean, in a small group, the alpha male gets sort of priority in mating. He can keep other males away when he wants to mate with a certain female. Female chimps certainly have some choice in who they mate with, but they also are sort of pressured by the adult males often to, mate. But the main sort of, it seems the main reason a chimp would become the alpha is he doesn't

Starting point is 00:15:42 have to defer to any other male chimp. And then if you're high ranking, you know, you have to defer to the alpha, you know, the second ranking, but you don't have to defer to anyone else. And by defer, this really means if you see another chimp through the course of the day, you'll give a little grunt maybe to indicate your deference or your submission, the pant grunt. And there could be a little, aggression that still occurs, slapping, chasing, but it's mostly these bluffs. And the one, I would say the one, I'm sort of an advocate to some extent for the dominance hierarchy because it can potentially reduce aggression because you sort of know where you fall. It's not strictly sort of this negative thing on the one hand.

Starting point is 00:16:25 But then the other important thing to note with chimps, it doesn't, the alpha is not the leader. The alpha is not necessarily one who is, you know, rallying the group together. leading the hunts or leading territorial patrols. It's just the fact that in this one domain, he doesn't have to grunt indifference to other males. Okay. Oh, my God. I have so many. Okay. So. Same.

Starting point is 00:16:50 Okay. So I really dislike this about humans. I have to say I really dislike this as human, about humans and about the chimps. Because here's the story I was making up. And this is coming from someone who studies human emotions. I'm making up the story that everything's okay until Jackson is like, we have to patrol the border. And then he's a shit starter. And he's like everyone comes, everybody goes with him. And he's putting them at risk.

Starting point is 00:17:30 It's like what I see in politics today. you're giving us an enemy and keeping us in fear to maintain your position. Like you're manufacturing conflict that doesn't exist. Like take Caroline. Caroline's got this new baby, right? And I thought I was very... Christine, yeah. Christine.

Starting point is 00:17:51 Yeah. Very offended that she wasn't named for a year because they die so often, right? The babies. But Adam, guess what puts the babies in peril often? The men going and fighting. No, just the men, just this does a men swaggering around and doing these displays of like nobody's after them. They're just running through, knocking down limbs and shit and looking tough. And then the baby gets caught in that.

Starting point is 00:18:19 So think about this politically right now. A fragile ego leader goes around stomping on things to prove that he's tough and there are innocent casualties. Now, is that true or not, Aaron? Am I signing too much? No, I love the, these are great hypotheses. Maybe it's worth just trying to give you the sort of really brief overview of what happened. I sort of started talking about this, but then there's so much stuff that is exciting to talk about. So the background, like before Chimp Empire, you had this one group of chimps at Ngogo.

Starting point is 00:18:57 And the alpha at the time was Miles, as long as I've worked, like when I started, working there in 2012. It was Miles was the alpha. He was the former alpha before Jackson. Miles. Jackson sidekick Miles? Yeah, because Miles was his huge, really bulky, big adult male. And he sort of, it seems he became the alpha because he was huge. He was just like, not necessarily as political. Before Miles, the alpha was Bartok, who was this more smaller average size male, but really had these social bonds, these long-term alliances, he was able to attain that status and maintain it because of those relationships. Miles came in. Miles was actually really good at grooming other chimps. He would groom kids, he'd groom adults. He was, you know, I think,

Starting point is 00:19:45 of good alpha in that regard. He wasn't necessarily the best leader, but this was a time in 2009, 10, 11, right before I started working there, the Ngogo Chips. This is when the central and western groups were still one community. It's a huge group. It's the biggest group of chimps known to scientists. 150, 200 chimps. Because they had so many males, adult males especially, they were really successful in territorial interactions,

Starting point is 00:20:15 these territorial patrols, attacking and killing chimps from other groups, infants and adults. And they expanded their territory. They expanded largely to the northeast, but they were really good. at defending and even increasing the size of the territory. More females came in. You saw an increase in fertility females with the bigger group.

Starting point is 00:20:34 Probably were able to have more kids. The group is growing largely because of females and kids. You have these sort of neighborhoods that always exist, the central, eastern, western neighborhoods, but they still are always intermingling, and you have miles as the alpha over all of them, just like Bartok had been the alpha over all of them before. And then my first two summers there in 2012, 2013, I mean, if you want to talk about vulnerability, it was so hard learning 200 chimps. This was like the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, learning 200 chimps,

Starting point is 00:21:09 learning the forest, figuring out a research project, a child's a dream, like confronting that, like having to realize a child of dream was the hardest thing that's ever happened to me. And there are plenty of times I was thinking about quitting and I could still be a primatologist, but I was like I can't study wild chimps. It's boring. It's hard. How am I going to learn 200 chimps? Were you scared too? Not so scared. I probably should have been of, I mean, I was scared of this losing a part of my identity. I was guerrilla boy. I was this person who blown out birthday candles for 20 years, wishing to become a gorilla scientist. Now here I am sitting.

Starting point is 00:21:48 chimps. So it's like child's a dream already not quite there, but it's pretty close. You know, one genus off. But it's hard and boring. And I, and a lot of that, it's because I just don't know all the individuals. I can't recognize them in an instant because to understand, you know, what makes, you know, I think any life interesting, like what makes chimpanzee life interesting is you see the, you can recognize them. You can tell what's happening. I mean, these documentaries that have these amazing footage, you know, zoomed in, they're still, you know, synthesizing a lot of stuff with the, with the narrative. But when you're actually there with binoculars and the chimps in a tree, like 100 feet up in a big fig tree,

Starting point is 00:22:30 it's hard to keep your neck craned and looking through the leaves and seeing who's doing what. I mean, it's really demoralizing. So while all this is happening, I'm learning, slowly learning the chimps. And Miles is the alpha, the entire community. He's from the central neighborhood, Jackson was born in the Western neighborhood. And he, as a young adult, moved to the central neighborhood. Because I noticed that there were sort of these distinct, I think, almost personalities in the three different neighborhoods. The central neighborhood was your classic, like chimpanzee group you would find in East Africa, like Uganda or Tanzania, where the highest ranking males are all sort of traveling together, following around whatever female is ovulating,

Starting point is 00:23:14 trying to mate with her. The adolescent males are sort of on the periphery, tagging along. That's sort of the textbook chimp behavior. In the western neighborhood, it was more like chimps actually in West Africa, where the males and females are actually more cohesive with each other. So there's still like high-ranking males. There's still aggression, but males are grooming females a lot. A lot of times, you know, high-rank, if you're high-ranking, you're more likely to have a kid, but also males and females that spent more time together are more likely to have kids together. So it was like this slightly different, I don't know, dynamic. Maybe like the central group was more like football players and the Western group was more

Starting point is 00:23:59 like soccer players or something. I'm just trying to think of like. No, I'm totally getting it. Like total players in the central and coupley relationship. So sweet. Boy, but I'm anti-Western, so I don't know how this is paying out for my narrative, but go ahead. And then in the east, those are more the freaks and the geeks. Those were, uh, males and females were sort of co-clusive still, but they're real, some of them were really emotionally reactive, like almost a little anxious, uh, they would be quick to get nervous and grimace. And, uh, but they would give each other these reassuring touches. They were quick to reassure each other. And there were two males in there who were very chill and very sweet, uh, Dexter and Mulligan, who were like, very calm, not. And reactive and they would be quick to, you know, give these nervous chimps a pat on the back, pat on the butt, hand to the mouth. They do, you know, like in old movies when someone gets nervous and they bite their fist. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a vestige of probably this ape behavior where you're nervous and you want someone else to put their hand in your mouth. So chimps will do this.

Starting point is 00:25:05 Oh, I saw that. They reassure each other by putting a hand in the other's mouth or putting a hand on their genitals or something like that, and that calms them down. So these are sort of the neighborhoods and the interesting dynamic is Jackson, who grew up in the West, this young adult male now sort of in his early 20s, he's rising in the hierarchy. This is like 2013, especially 2014. But he's rising really fast. And then in 2014, it's my third summer, I've like decided despite, I decided the prior summer I decided to quit field primatology. My PhD advisor sort of called my bluff and I was like, all right, fine, I'll do it.

Starting point is 00:25:47 I'll just go out. I'll study adolescent young adult male social relationships. And I developed various strategies where I think I could potentially succeed in doing this fieldwork. So I'm like, I'm going to be here for 15 months studying these chimps. Jeez. We get there that summer in 2014 and we realized after a few weeks that, five of these older adult male chimps have died. They were in there around age 40, which for a

Starting point is 00:26:15 chimp is sort of old for a male. I think that they all died within around a month of each other, suggesting some of them at least died from a disease. And these were old males who were really well connected. And I haven't run the social network analyses on this because it's sort of a difficult question to answer. But they were certainly well connected with a lot of the other chimps. Some of them even seeming like bridges between the eastern central neighborhood or bridges between the central and western neighborhood. It's like dem mafia. So they should disappear. And you don't know at first because chimpanzees like humans, they're never all together in the same place at the same time.

Starting point is 00:26:48 It's like a village where you're mixing in part. Like, yeah, you have friends and family, spend more time together. But throughout the day, they're intermingling. They can go days or weeks without seeing each other. So as researchers, we're going weeks without seeing some of these chimps. We're like, where's Pinsor, where is Berg? Where's Dolfi? where's Webster, whereas Mingus, and then after a couple months we realized they're gone.

Starting point is 00:27:08 They're gone forever. They died. And I don't think we realized at first that this likely had a big impact. I think the neighborhoods became now more distinct. There used to be three neighborhoods that were really well connected by a handful of individual chimps. Those are now gone at the same time that Jackson is shooting up in the dominance hierarchy. And then I go there for, I'm there for a year, finally learn all the chimps, and I have this research project that's motivating me. And I've sort of learned the forest, become really competent at recognizing the chimps, knowing what's going on.

Starting point is 00:27:45 At the end of that year, Jackson finally takes his chance and gets, charges Miles, and a month later, Miles Pank runs to him. And that was like the takeover. And it was this day in June in 2015 that that happened. And John Matani, who's been studying these chimps for at that time, it had been 20 years. That was 2015. He was the only one that saw Miles grunt in submission to Jackson. So now Jackson is essentially the alpha. He still has to sort of establish himself over the subsequent weeks.

Starting point is 00:28:23 And Miles has to retain his high-ranking position. unless he's going to fall. Right. And it was that afternoon, though, I was with chimps from the western neighborhood. And it was the end of the day, and I was alone with them. We were in the middle of the territory. And they hear other chimps, and it must be chimps from the central neighborhood, Miles Jackson, those other chimps. They're just an earshot.

Starting point is 00:28:47 And the chimps that I'm with, rather than sort of approaching them and reuniting in typical chimpanzee fashion, they become quiet, they become nervous. they start grimacing, they're embracing each other, touching each other in reassurance. They're acting like they're hearing outsiders. And then when they see the central chimpanzees approach, rather than reunite, they run. And the central chimpanzees then chase them. And this was the first time we'd really seen, like, avoidance among chimps from the same community. And then they avoided each other for six weeks, and nothing like that had ever been observed before.

Starting point is 00:29:23 And I think, you know, knowing then learning at the end of the day that, oh, Jackson had finally got Miles to pancrum to him, I think the Western chimps must have heard in the vocalization some, you know, heightened tension. And it had been, there's a risk to every reunion, even on a normal day. And I think it was like the Western chimps were like, there's too much tension, it's not worth the risk, they ran. in which I can sort of understand, because Miles was sort of a hothead for a while afterwards. He was being more aggressive than normal. Jackson was being more aggressive establishing himself. So it makes sense, but I think they planted the seed of polarization. So, I mean, that we can debate then to what extent the question about the us versus them.

Starting point is 00:30:09 Do you need a them for an us? But the Western neighborhood had already sort of been a cohesive unit, I think. They were already pretty cohesive. They had the six weeks of avoidance, after which they all came back together. Things seemed to return to normal. I finished my field work for my PhD, but then as I was gone, writing up, other researchers were there. But they slowly became more and more polarized. I want to tell you, so if you're listening and you're going to watch Chimp Empire,

Starting point is 00:30:40 I'm going to give you a spoiler here. One thing, I didn't want on the initial Border Patrol thing, I didn't want Gus to go. I mean, I knew he had to go, but I didn't want him to go. I wanted him to stay safe, and I definitely didn't want pork pie to go. And pork pie didn't make – he got scared, and he went home, right, during this border. Like, he left. But I had to tell you about the bad guys in this show.

Starting point is 00:31:14 Adam, are you laughing at me? Like, I – Keep going. Keep going? I had to wait. a long time between one and two. Because I was distraught. I called my husband crying.

Starting point is 00:31:25 And he's like, you can't watch animal documentaries. For the Western chimpanzees to sneak into a territory and kill someone in their own territory, that was brutal. It's brutal, but it is a typical part of chimpanzee behavior. It's not so common. But around, I mean, chimpanzees will do these territorial patrols. They'll get a large group of especially adult males, some adult females, and usually a few adolescent females, will go to the edge of their territory sometimes. But also often they'll then do these deeper incursions into the outsider's territory. And it's still unclear exactly what sort of the chimps are thinking when they're doing these.

Starting point is 00:32:15 Some, I think, sometimes it is they're trying to find a fig tree or certain fruit trees that are near the border, and so to feel safe eating there, they need to go deeper, make sure there's no other chimps from the outsider group, because at the border, there may be some trees that are shared by two groups. Other times, I think certain individual chimps in particular are motivated to go on territorial patrols. Some are motivated to attack and kill chimps from other groups. And they can even try to rally. and how they do this, we do not know, because chimps, they have vocalizations, they have gestures, they have nothing like human language, spoken language. They're somehow coordinating, I think, all of this through nonverbal, really subtle, subtle bodily cues and contexts and things that are sort of the next big questions, I think, for chimpanzee research. But they will attack and kill.

Starting point is 00:33:10 I think, I mean, for me, it feels almost like when chimpanzees, they're doing this, because across chimpanzee sites, they attack and killed chimps from other groups. And we've learned this over the last 50 years of people sitting chimps. But usually they're killing a stranger, a stranger to them. It's adult males, because adult males are born in the group, they stay in that group their whole lives. So any adult male chimp that they see that they don't know is from this other group.

Starting point is 00:33:40 So it's a stranger. And it seems like adult male chimps are sort of xenophobic. They have this fear of strangers, and then so when they see one from another group, they'll run if they're outnumbered or they'll go and try to attack and kill them. Yeah, it's brutal, but it's a familiar phenomenon. I mean, from the human perspective, too. But with the Ngogo chimps, these are two groups that used to be one. They're not strangers to each other. There were one group that finally became two groups at the end of 2017. They had finally split. And then it was. was in 2018 that we saw the first lethal attack by chimps from the Western group against a chimp from the Central Group. Wow. And that was, I finished my PhD. I went back to Uganda for eight months to sort of especially track this polarization. And I got there and I realized right away, it's like, whoa, this is really changed. Not only are they socially distinct, they've really divided the territory. Now, the Western chips stay in the West, Central Chim, stay in the Central.

Starting point is 00:34:45 there was one old male BF who was sort of more a westerner. He was with the central, he was the last chimp that would go back and forth. I remember following him in this plateau in the middle of the forest where there's a lot of different fruit trees. And he was just traveling there alone. It was the center of the territory now as this borderland. And I was expecting, you know, when is he going to go back to join the Westerners? And then it was in January, 2018, we started seeing more and more.

Starting point is 00:35:15 more territorial patrols against these former group members, the Central Chimps with Patrol to the West, the Western Chimps would patrol Central. And then it was 2018 when the Westerners killed this young adult male, arrow. And that was like for me witnessing that, it really like shifted my perspective. I was like, oh, wow, this split is real.

Starting point is 00:35:38 They're treating these chimps as outsiders. And then I was sort of learning alongside the chimps, these shifting dynamics. because I think Errol showed up to this part of the, not realizing that the Western Chims would really see him as an outsider and that they would kill him. Aaron, the parallels to human conflict are, they're sort of, they're smacking you right in the face, right?

Starting point is 00:35:59 You have a perceived slight or insult or aggression on the part of, you know, a former friend or group member. And all of a sudden, now we're locked in some kind of in-group, out-group dynamic. And it almost doesn't matter where it started. because each side can point to the other and say they're dangerous, they're a threat. They did this to us, and therefore we need to defend ourselves. And then the line starts to blur between, like, offense and defense.

Starting point is 00:36:27 Like, you protect yourself by attacking. How do you make sense of that? And how do you think about getting out of it? I think when the conflict started, I mean, a lot of these questions are hard to answer scientifically. But, I mean, what I'm really interested is that, shift, like when did the new group identities really emerge and then override prior relationships? And there was always this ambiguity there because the first chimp that we saw killed Errol, he was 16, he was sort of a loner even within the central group. So when he met the Westerners,

Starting point is 00:37:06 it made sense that they would sort of see him more as an outsider. And this was still a time when, you know, they were, they accepted BF, they accepted this old male who they had a really close relationship to. And so there's this emergence of in-group, out-group dynamic. But there was still like plausible deniability. I think the senior professors didn't want to accept that the group was splitting. I mean, it took us a long time. We wrote this paper that was just published in April in the journal Science, just sort of describing what happened and using this long-term data to analyze it, but combined with the more qualitative accounts, it took us so long to write it, partly because it's a huge team effort. We have, like,

Starting point is 00:37:55 all these professors, graduate students, you've gone and staff, people who've been working there for decades and decades, and then wanting to do in a really clear way, but also scientifically, you know, statistically rigorous way. It was this huge effort, but I think it also took so long because it was really hard for the researchers to admit that the split was happening and then even to think about it, even to analyze the data. I mean, like, I now want to write a book about this,

Starting point is 00:38:25 but I think part of my writer's block is like this emotional toll of watching chimps being killed and watching also the killers, which in that regard, I'm actually, I don't really hold it against them, which is an interesting phenomenon in its own right. But why not? I don't know.

Starting point is 00:38:46 I think, I mean, because I saw Errol killed. Errol was a 16-year-old. He'd been the subject of my dissertation. He was one of the 18 young males that I focused on. So I was looking at him, you know, for 15 months, he was one of the main chimps that I was looking at, writing down who he was interacting with. He was an orphan.

Starting point is 00:39:06 He had a close relationship to his much older brother, Dizzy. and they were both the smallest chimps in the whole community. And I remember even him before my dissertation, my real dissertation research in 2012, 2013, watching him. He was little shy, this little loner adolescent orphan with these two older brothers. One brother died in 2014, and then his older brother died in 2017.

Starting point is 00:39:31 There was a disease outbreak. So it was really sad to watch Errol be killed and die. I was in the moment I still have this, which is almost troubling. Like I look at the video footage that I took and can hear, you know, I'm narrating it with this objective voice. Rewatching it, it's like it's sad to watch and it's also almost troubling. Like I'm curious about my own mental state at the time. I remember though that night, like once the day was over,

Starting point is 00:40:03 Errol had died. We got a vet in to sort of assess the body and the wound. and then we buried his body so that we could collect the bones later because that's an important rare scientific opportunity to have the skeleton of a wild chimp. And then that night, emailing the senior professors to tell them that this had happened. It was really, that was like, you know,

Starting point is 00:40:26 I'm sitting on the porch in the dark in this cabin in the middle of the forest. And that's when, like, the emotions sort of come, and I cried and reflecting more on the emotion. Because these are chimps that it's, it's weird. We have this one-sided relationship with all. We're just following them around in the forest. They ignore us.

Starting point is 00:40:45 But we learn about their lives. And Errol was certainly someone I knew really well. And yet, I don't hold it against the chimps who were attacking him. And I almost have grace for them because I motivated to understand what caught. Like, why did the group split? I'm motivated to understand even the sort of psychology underlying. lethal aggression in chimps. And partly, I mean, they're chimps, so I don't have the same moral standard, of course, that I would have for a human. But it just, to me, it seems like this

Starting point is 00:41:21 more, I want a systemic understanding of what's happening. And I don't know what it is, but I do seem to have this sort of grace for the individual chimps. Wow. Aaron, it sounds like demonizing them would stand in the way of understanding them. I think it could, yeah, I think it could stand in the way of understanding them and understanding what's going on. And it's like, again, I'm a scientist watching this dynamic unfold. There's something to be said for, you know, objectivity and distance. But I'm also really wanting to understand the phenomenon. And it's like, I can't stop it for many reasons. I mean, it wouldn't be safe. These are changes. Like, there's no way to intervene, really. But also, there's something

Starting point is 00:42:08 to be said out of respect for the chimps to let this unfold. And then just to see how can we understand it. Yeah, I think, and there may be a lesson here also for deepening our sort of understanding of conflict and aggression and violence and war in humans. I wonder to what extent we should focus our attention more on sort of the causes and the context and maybe less demonization of the individuals who are perpetrating these horrible things. Of course, with humans, you have to hold people accountable for what they do, but maybe the demonization gets in the way. I mean, I think that's, I think that's probably true. I just,

Starting point is 00:42:48 one thing I've learned is, and I probably knew it going into this conversation. I definitely know it now. I would be the absolute worst. I would be the worst at your job of anybody in the whole world, because I would be armed. And if you came against the people that I have named and that I love, and that I have, I know their story and their narrative. You know, and it's also, I think the thing that's hard is, like, I was with my family and I was telling you about this and they're like, stop talking about the chimps. And it reminded me of when we would interview people asking them, what is vulnerability? How many hundreds, if not thousands of people said to us in these interviews,

Starting point is 00:43:31 any animal dying in a film is absolute vulnerability, and the people who do it should go straight to hell. Like just the reaction that we have, that I think if I were one of the senior researchers, it would take me a long time to write that paper too because I would want something different for them than what we have for us. I would want something pure and better and less susceptible to what makes humans so hard.

Starting point is 00:44:10 Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the one thing to note is that in this case, the chimps who are doing to killing are also chants that, you know, we've known that researchers have named and we know their stories too. So it does create the more, it's a bit more of a complex picture than typical intergroup progression where you don't know the chimps who might be attacking chimps from your group. And you find a dead body of a chimp presumably killed by the outsider group. It's different, I think.

Starting point is 00:44:42 But you don't immediately go, you don't immediately go like, you know, here are these chimps that killed this person that I've been studying. And now in my scientific narrative, they are the bad guys moving forward. a crippling cruelty has taken over the Western group. Yeah, I empathize with the sentiment. And I think some of the, I would bet that if, I think a lot of our team feels that way to some extent. I think some of them do.

Starting point is 00:45:13 Yeah. Really? Really? Yeah. And I think, you know, it's like what we talk about at the dinner table. That's where we do more anthropomorphizing, which is still based in our, like, observation. So it's like when professional primatologists are anthropomorphizing, it's grounded in,

Starting point is 00:45:33 if not in like quantitative data. It's grounded in our experience of watching the chimps and knowing their relationships. And I mean, so much of animal behavior and anthropology is sort of having a vibe about what's happening. And then if you're a good scientist articulating the vibe. Yes. And like with chimps, it took me so long to learn what are they going to do next. like what are they possibly thinking and feeling? Most of that's still a vibe. I mean, it's based on context.

Starting point is 00:46:03 Where am I in the forest? Oh, they're at this fig tree that they were at a couple of years ago. They usually take this path. They go there. They'll likely patrol. Like, it took me a decade to get to the point where I'm like, okay, I think this is what I'm noticing about them. These are the subtle movements. These are subtle behaviors.

Starting point is 00:46:20 Yeah, I mean, it's for me, though, I don't know why I just really don't. I don't hold it against the ones we're doing the attacking. And part of it is so much of that dynamic, we see that dynamic unfolding. We see it emerging and then unfolding. And there's sort of this positive side to a lot of those dynamics on a territorial patrol. It's an amazing opportunity for bonding and mentorship. It's like two of the, often the instigators of patrols in the West, Rollins and his younger brother Damien.

Starting point is 00:46:55 Damien was this adolescent male whose mother had died in this disease outbreak in 2017 and he and his younger sister, this little juvenile, were sort of adopted by their much older brother Rollins. And it was like they were on patrols together and Damien grew up

Starting point is 00:47:13 and he was like really motivated, I think, to go on territorial patrols himself, but he had his older brother, this sort of role modelist mentor. And in the West, Because of the patrolling, I think there's a lot more almost egalitarianism, cross-age and dominance rank. And it does lead to more cohesion. That's, again, where you definitely see. I get why so often we think you need a them for an us, because that happens for sure.

Starting point is 00:47:42 But the West already had this sort of cohesion beforehand, but I think it is bolstered by these territorial patrols. I mean, it's amazing. sometimes you also will see these long-term bonded individuals going on territorial patrols more often than with others. And I think it's like if you're with your friend, you're more, you're braver. You're able to go on the front lines. There was one time, there's one time the Western chimps were patrolling and they were going pushing in 2021 further and further east. They, you know, had moved in. And this was probably, you know, in the weeks before they killed pork pie.

Starting point is 00:48:23 And I was with the Western chimps. And they get to this sort of further east. And they typically went before. They start calling the central chimps. We can hear them. They are calling. And the Western chimps I'm with, they decided to give up. They turn around.

Starting point is 00:48:38 But they sort of scatter. And I wasn't sure if some had gone ahead. So I rushed ahead to other calls, these screams. And the chimps will bang on trees, the buttresses, the sort of roots of trees. And I get not very far away, and it's these two young adult males, Hayden and Booker, from the Central group,

Starting point is 00:48:56 they are like on the front lines, calling, like, sort of defending their territory. Most of the Central chimps are hundreds of meters behind them, but I think they were like, these are small, low-ranking chimps. Oh, yeah. But they were, like, I think, emboldened by their bonds with each other. That Booker is Gus's older brother.

Starting point is 00:49:16 So it's like this interesting little family there. But yeah, there's beauty and sort of cooperation and there's empathy. There's so many of the positive dynamics that you see at play even in the midst of this aggression and violence. Aaron, at the beginning of this conversation, you mentioned you were curious about, do they have friendships? And how do they form them? Where are you on that?

Starting point is 00:49:40 I hear you talking about it sounds like chimps are bonding through grooming. it sounds like they're bonding through going on these these sort of patrols like are they friends how do they become friends how do you know if you're going to say they're not friends I need some kind of disclaimer no because you're going to break my heart Aaron

Starting point is 00:50:02 I was you know there's the scientific caution about using terms that are commonly used by us in everyday speech and that are so defined by I think the human experience and I think friendship is one of of them, primatologists have been debating to what extent you can use that term to describe the relationships of other animals for years. I think that some chimps definitely are friends with each other. But I also, I mean, I think it still deserves a more, more sort of a deeper understanding

Starting point is 00:50:34 of what we mean by friendship. And for that, we have to think about what we mean by friendship in humans. I don't think we have the best understanding of this yet. And I mean, until recently, and there's been, I think, a lot of good work. And Adam, I know you've been thinking about this a lot, but there wasn't a great scientific understanding of friendship. So often we would have to go back to Aristotle to sort of even get the framework. And I think to some extent, there are two important points I think when I think about chimps. One is there's an important distinction between a friend and an ally. Oh, for sure.

Starting point is 00:51:11 so often like with Jackson, it was hard for me to know, are these his friends or are these his allies? Was Miles's friend or is his ally? Was Basie his friend or his ally? Like I think a friend, there's like a real emotional connection. You want to spend time together. You sort of are calm when you're with them or excited when you see them. Whereas an ally is someone who will come to your aid. But it might be for more utilitarian purposes. So it might be that, you know, Miles was an ally to Jackson. I'm not sure.

Starting point is 00:51:52 But when circumstances change, maybe it would be easier to break that tie. Yeah, Bray. I mean, pass. I can tell you for sure 100% that Miles was friends with Jackson. And here's my empirical evidence. because when Abrams was trying to fight his way up and was grooming Miles and Jackson couldn't see,

Starting point is 00:52:24 Miles would not groom Abrams back. He let him pick all the bugs off of him, and then he just came a look, and he was like, you're not my friend. And then, yes, that would be... Well, I think even... That would be my hypothesis. Yeah, it's a good hypothesis.

Starting point is 00:52:40 And I think those looks are actually what's key. Like, we can't, I don't, I mean, there's from behavior alone, from these sort of broad measures of behavior, you cannot, I don't think, determine friendship from grooming alone or how much time they spend sitting near each other alone. I think it has to be partly a much more detailed, subtler depiction of how, like, of almost like facial expressions or these other patterns that are extremely difficult to determine in a chimp. And I mean, I think they're, correct me if I'm right. I think they're really difficult for humans. Like we don't necessarily have the system at it. Yeah. It's impossible.

Starting point is 00:53:17 But we as people are so good at sort of almost unconsciously picking up on this with humans, with each other. Yes. I mean, that's where the vibe, these gut feelings, vibes. And then if you're really good, you become a good therapist or a poker champion or a psychic or something. I hope not. You're still psychic. Yeah, you'll also be there. I don't mean like East Village, like little kiosk.

Starting point is 00:53:45 I mean like really like. Oh, yeah, yeah. My great-grandmother was a sort of faith healer, Sephardic, Kabbalistic faith healer. So I'm a little. I do believe in that 100%. Yeah. She was reading like coffee grounds and having meetings about people's

Starting point is 00:54:05 numerology and stuff. So I might have a little. bias for my being in my blood. But yeah, I think we're really good at picking up on it. And finally, after like a decade of studying chimps, I started picking up on these subtleties. Some of my colleagues, like Retch Noretti who studies these chimps, she like from day one, she was picking up on the subtleties. It took me 10 years. But now I'm like, oh, I think these chimps are friends based on the way they're grooming each other, the way they're looking at each other. Miles looked at, Miles looked at him like, I appreciate the grooming. I understand what you're doing. Not only,

Starting point is 00:54:44 am I not going to participate in this with you, be very clear that I love Jackson. It's possible, yeah. I mean, but I even remember, I remember, you know, seven years before that happened. Like, this is another just, this is not, I mean, relationships, of course, can also change. For chimps, they might. these friendships or alliances or both typically lasts like around three years, but sometimes they can last a decade. Sometimes they can last over a decade. I think those cases are like for sure friendships. But the other reason I'm hesitant to use the term friend to describe their relationships

Starting point is 00:55:28 in chimps is I wonder if friendship doesn't actually fully capture the strength of the relationship. Sometimes it's like, you know, you're just friends. Sometimes like with friendship that we have today, it's like a lower, it's considered a lower category than other types of bonds. Yeah, yeah. A romantic partner or something or family bonds. So that's why I'm leaving open the possibility that these are certainly sometimes social bonds that might be even stronger than what we typically call friendship, especially if these relationships, you know, are, might be better understood as a mentor. mentee relationships. Like sometimes we may not call that friendship, but it's this really important bond. So that's my other hesitance. It was like this whole journey of what are these a scientific

Starting point is 00:56:15 study of friendship. I'm like, okay, maybe they do have them, but I'm like, wait, maybe that doesn't fully capture the intensity and the emotional sort of power of some of these relationships. And I will say like for the relationships last a decade, these are, I mean, there's the strongest responds for chimps, number one is mother and their kid. They stay with their mom for the first 10 years of their life through middle, early adolescence. They can maintain a relationship, even though they spend less time with their entire life, where these even adult males will, they don't spend a lot of time together. When they are together, they'll groom each other. Can I just ask this last question? It'll be my last question about my friends and then go,

Starting point is 00:57:00 Shut up, Adam. How is that true for two reasons? I felt like Christine did Nadine dirty. Like, so listen, Christine has... You're watching Real Housewives, Chimp Edition. I love it. Listen, no, Christine is the mom. And then she has the baby that they don't name in the beginning of the show, but later you find out it's Isabel. So cute and mischievous. A little too mischievous for my taste, because it was a dangerous situation. Because of the men. I roll. But Nadine was Isabelle's older sister. And the narrator, who I'm sure had to get past the scientist, said that Nadine was ignored because now there's a baby in the family,

Starting point is 00:57:46 and seven-year-old Nadine is being ignored. And then my other question, and I know this has to be the last one, but I cannot believe that they send unprotected female adolescents out of their community on their own. Like, Adam, they are shoved out, teenage girls.

Starting point is 00:58:11 Shubbed onto the streets. Not okay with that. So explain to me how the motherhood bond must end because Nadine was ignored. I felt so bad for her. She's like in human fifth grade. Yeah. It's a great point.

Starting point is 00:58:28 I mean, the one thing is, when there's a new baby, when there's a new infant, this is true across, I think, mammals, that there's more attention on this new infant, less attention on the juvenile. But, and I think it's hard for Nadine, it probably was hard, but she's still maintained a close relationship. She's still traveling constantly with Christine. But it is a, it's a rough transition. She's not the sole focus of Christine's attention. And I think we see this. We get. and probably with humans. And with chimps, it's interesting because like humans,

Starting point is 00:59:04 it's not just where most mammals, soon after weaning, the kid becomes completely independent. Right. In group living animals, including many primates, it's actually usually the females that stay. So they can have an opportunity. The relationship shifts. And actually surprisingly, we know less about the development of these relationships.

Starting point is 00:59:25 This is something I'm working out with one of my PhD students in gorillas. and also another PhD student with chimps, how do these relationships sort of shift during this juvenile period after weaning before puberty? It's a really interesting dynamic into what is the mother-offspring relationship like? The thing with chimps is, first of all,

Starting point is 00:59:46 it's important to note that, yeah, at adolescence and chimps and bonobos, the females typically leave the group. They leave the area that they've known, they leave the chimps that they've known. But it's not, it's unlikely, it doesn't seem that they're kicked out, which is interesting. They seem to go on their own accord. So around adolescence, late adolescence, maybe around 11, 12, 13, female chimps become more independent of their mother.

Starting point is 01:00:15 They spend more time in the entire group. And often they'll join the adult males and a few other adult females on these territorial patrols. Part of it is because they're socializing with the adults in the group. And so the males will go off on a patrol. They're like, all right, let's go. But part of me wonders if they're almost using that opportunity to survey the other groups and the other territories. And to me, I feel like there's a lot of agency in what's going on for these young females.

Starting point is 01:00:45 They and they are brave. I mean, talk about vulnerability. They're going out into the unknown. I couldn't believe it. They're alone walking out. And I think part of it might be because adolescence, you know, fear can become thrill. So I think for some of these females,

Starting point is 01:01:04 it's like they're going out into the unknown. And sometimes they stay. Sometimes they stay, but go into a different neighborhood, especially Edding Go-go where there's a big, it's a huge chunk of forest. Sometimes they can go and that's an easier transition. Other times it's like, wow, and we don't know what goes on

Starting point is 01:01:19 because it's hard to follow them. And it can be rough transitioning into a new group. So it's not that it's like an easy life, but it's like a very interesting and impressive thing that happens for these chimps, these female chimps. But if on occasion an adolescent female stays in her community and she stays in the neighborhood with her mom, then those are the strongest bonds in the world. They can just stay with their mom. Sometimes they like stay in the group but don't have a relationship with her, but sometimes they stay and it's like this lifelong bond. That's what I would pick. family unit. Yeah, and that's beautiful. But then the other, and that's the strongest bond that

Starting point is 01:01:59 exists for chimps. But then one of the other strongest bonds is between adult males, these ones that can last five, ten, twelve years. And for me, those relationships which they'll be with maternal brothers will form these strong bonds, but some of the most enduring are just between unrelated adult males. This is why, and these are the males who are hunting together and sharing. me and going on border patrols, to me, I think friendship might not even fully capture the nature of these relationships. Like brotherhood. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:02:33 It's like brotherhood or it's almost like the closest thing I've seen in the animal kingdom to romantic love. Wow. It's like a pair bond. Like we often think about pair bonds is occurring between a male and a female that are mating together and often raising offspring together. But if you think about what really is a pair bond, that that's about the relationship. like whether they're monogamous or not is another question, whether they are raising an offspring

Starting point is 01:02:58 together is another question. The pair bond is about a really strong social relationship, cooperation, you know, distinct behaviors, preferences for each other. And if you sort of go check off the list of what makes a pair bond, which we often think about, you know, some birds and you see some primates like gibbons and, you know, owl monkeys and TT monkeys have this. If you start going through the list of what actually makes a pair bond, I feel like some of these adult male pairs are actually pair bonds. It reminds me my dad and his best fishing buddy who've been friends for 50 years. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:03:35 And they're not patrolling territory. I mean, the Gulf Coast. But they have a bond that it's like lasted divorces. And, you know, I mean, they just like they say things to each other. Like they didn't want to live without each other. Like they're, you know, but they're a few words. But I can see it actually. It'd be, it'd be so much better for human guys to have pair bonds with other men and develop more vulnerability and empathy and those kind of things. And it's just hard to do it around nonviolent things sometimes. Okay, I'm super aware of time. Adam, before we go to, before we go to our lightning round, do you have any? I have any. I have. I have. I have gotten out of three out of my 30 questions, but that's okay. I know where you work.

Starting point is 01:04:29 Barely scratched the surface for me, too, but I think it's time for lightning. Yeah. I will say that my daughter, who's getting her PhD in emotion studies, was like, make sure you ask him about the otter gang wars in Singapore. And I was like, I don't think he studies the otter. She's like, but he's got to know about the otter wars because otter is her favorite animal, and she was so devastated to learn about these gang wars between otters and Singapore. But yeah, it's just genetic.

Starting point is 01:04:56 She's got a genetic problem like from her mom. All right. One thing that you are deeply curious about right now. What are emotions and can we really scientifically study this across animals? Speaking of my love language. Okay. You get to design the weirdest and wildest. saying just single item to put inside of a curiosity shop, what would it be?

Starting point is 01:05:24 Oh, my God. Yeah. I would want to, it would be a wearable device that would like a snare, a wire snare that you would catch an animal with, but that has a safety device on it. So it turns into a bracelet and then it has like a GPS and Bluetooth. and stuff so you could just put it out and get it on wild animals and then it would track them and maybe non-basically monitor their behavior. I don't know if we could put that in the curiosity shop. We could. It's a primatology curiosity shop for sure. Or I don't know if that's

Starting point is 01:06:09 something. I could also be like a chimp testicle and pickling in formaldehyde that I collected in 2015. I would be for that. That was not on my bingo card for today. I have to ask, Aaron, one of the things I'm so curious about that I think can be done lightning style is what's the most surprising way that chimps are similar to humans? I love that. I think it's in the, I mean, there's these big conceptual things like these relationships

Starting point is 01:06:40 that seem to hint at things like love and war. but it's also for me the subtlest things the gestures one thing that um really stuck with me is um the way they will just swipe at their nose sometimes it seems to be when they're a little more activated they'll swipe at their nose and this is something humans do all the time it's like you know when someone's a little anxious nervous or really think about something they swipe at their nose we don't notice it though No one notices. So I'm like, this is where I can become sort of the psychic. I'm like, chimps are doing it. I see it across primates. Humans are doing it too. It's like the same thing or even just little gestural things, the way you rest your ankle on your knee when you're sitting down. Chimps do this. So much of what we think of as human is not because we're human. Yes, it's important. Part of being human, but it's because we're apes. Damn. Okay. And I'm going to leave. with this question because I just have to, this is, I am so anti-metaglasses, but would it be cool

Starting point is 01:07:51 for primatologists that if you looked and you got the read on, let's say, Gus, my guy Gus, and you're like, tic-t-t-d-d-dick-dick, in your metaglass. And then when you were wearing them, you would be like, Caroline, Isabel, Sam, Gus, would that be helpful or not helpful? So helpful, especially for training new researchers. So helpful. And that's sort of what we are now, the experienced researchers. The one problem, I mean, this is an easy solution, but the one problem is we're staying always like 25, 30 feet away from the chimps to make sure just for our safety, their safety, especially their safety, we can give them a common cold and they would die from that. So that's the biggest priority is like we're wearing face masks, we have hand sanitizer, we're keeping a distance.

Starting point is 01:08:40 So we need binoculars. Even like when they're on the ground, sometimes you don't want to use binoculars. So if we could have like super magnification, video recording glasses, that would be really nice that sort of had this automatic recognition of individuals and behavior. Yes. For the last few years, I was doing a lot more like camcorder footage or I even just would wear like a lapel mic and dictate everything I'm seeing because historically with animal behavior. It's like you're writing down in a notebook. I've been looking at my old writing the rain notebooks from 2012 where I'm like writing down these little notes of what they're doing.

Starting point is 01:09:21 But then I switch to an app on my phone where I'm like entering really quickly what's happening. It automatically records the date and the time, GPS location, stuff like that. But yeah, that would be like the metaglass style thing would be so good. But the problem is really just methodological. There's a bunch of vegetation. and there's sometimes, you know, 150 feet up in a tree. They're running around, but that would be great. I'll work on it for you.

Starting point is 01:09:48 Okay, if you see me in your class, just be cool. Yeah. You'd be cool, Renee. That's going to be the hard part. No, there's no way I can be cool. I don't know. I'm going to ask myself. I expect you in the front row for sure.

Starting point is 01:10:00 No doubt. That's where I always sit. I just have to say, I'm so glad you didn't give up on your guerrilla dream, Aaron. Same. Yeah. I think the work you're doing is so fascinating. And I think it's so much easier to see the things that we take for granted that are problematic in human interactions.

Starting point is 01:10:16 I think you're holding up a mirror and allowing us to look at that and say, wait a minute, that doesn't have to happen. That's beautiful, Adam. Yeah. Dream come true. Really just really important and amazing. And I love it so much. I'm still not a fan. I'm so not not I'm a fan I just I think they are us and we are them and I think that's a little scary

Starting point is 01:10:45 but love what you do parallels are the parallels are hard but yeah thank you so much it's great discussing this with you so fun thank you for joining us Aaron was this everything you dreamed of yes I don't think he softened me on the Western group at all just to be honest with you like I am but maybe I am the problem maybe like maybe I am promoting the us and themness of it. But I didn't get to know them. I mean, I just didn't have a soft spot. Well, there's a tough killing in the first episode,

Starting point is 01:11:21 and I just never got past it. I don't think I would get over that either. It's striking to me how strong your parisocial relationships are with these chimps. Me? Yours. Yeah, I mean, his too, but yours just from watching the doc. Well, you know, documentaries are, you know, nature documentaries especially. I mean, like I had,

Starting point is 01:11:40 we not been doing this podcast, I would never have watched one because I'm, I find that kind of stuff really tough to see and really tough to watch. And the vulnerability of animals, I think, is really hard. But I kept saying, I can't watch it. I'm going to watch it. I can't watch it. I'm going to watch it. I'm going to watch it for the prep. But then I just got bought in. And there were some very serious, it's really hard when you see them and their little ears and their eyes. And it's, they look like us. And so I just knew them. and they have such fun personalities and not all of them. But I don't know. I left, I would be so bad at this job.

Starting point is 01:12:19 Could you imagine anyone worse at this job than me? I could. Yes, I could. No. Because I'm just such about the story and the emotional narrative. And he seems like it's so funny, he goes right to the edge of that and then science pulls him back. Did you notice that? consistently. Yeah. Every time he got attached, he would kind of pull back and say, well, that's an interesting

Starting point is 01:12:46 hypothesis. Right. I'm like, no, I'm not hypothesizing. This is exactly what happened between these two chumps. I can tell you right now that Miles looked at this guy and said, try again. I'm not, you know, like, so I think I was really grateful, too, about the honesty of the struggle that you can start dreaming of doing that kind of research, but that kind of research is tough and isolating and scary. Yeah. It, you know, it captured for me what is a challenge for a lot of people of pursuing what they think is a calling career-wise. You have this image, especially if you fall for it when you're young. And it seems like it's going to be nirvana. And then you get there and it's a job. And you have all these, to your point, isolating tasks, menial tasks, the boredom. just to observe and try to figure out what's going on.

Starting point is 01:13:41 And I think a lot of people experience a honeymoon hangover effect there. Where I feel like, oh, no, this is my life now? Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't think anyone dreams about the preparation, the part of the career that makes it that thing. Like, you know, the hundreds of hours of, you know, mosquito bites and every chimp looks the same.

Starting point is 01:14:08 and you can't see them because they're in the canopy. And, you know, I just, I don't think that's what we, and certainly if you grow up on media that's promoting some career, that's not what they're showing in the documentary. They probably have a gazillion hours and we see four 40 minutes series, you know. I think it's so easy to, this is true for any job. It's so easy to fall in love with the purpose of it and have no idea whether the process is a good fit for you or not, which is why it's, It boggles my mind that people don't shadow jobs before they take them.

Starting point is 01:14:42 Like, that people commit to careers without actually knowing what they're going to be doing day in and day out. I think in our world, I'm so curious about how you do this. When we have people who are thinking about doing a PhD, my first advice to them is go read four articles in our academic journals. And if you're still awake on number four, you have found your calling. Yeah. No. I think it's, I think it's three things. I think it's purpose versus process versus romanticized understanding. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of people want to be, it was like if you track some of the

Starting point is 01:15:21 research around how many people got interested in medicine because of Gray's anatomy. That's such a good example. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. And so I think just the real behind the scenes, Like, I don't think a second year medical student is thinking, this is exactly, you know, like that moment when Meredith Gray fell in love with McDreamy. You know, they're thinking, I have 7,000 flashcards and I remember three of them. And I think I have all three of those diseases. Oh, no. Oh, God, for sure. Yeah, having been married from someone through medical school and residency.

Starting point is 01:15:59 Yeah. Yeah, I just think it was an interesting conversation on every level, not just the chimps, but his own experience. as a researcher and a scientist. And yeah, I think it was beautiful. Me too. You know, one thing I was left thinking about, I just have to ask you about this because I don't know what to make of it. I think one of the things I'm grappling with right now is,

Starting point is 01:16:23 as for as long as I can remember, I've thought about what makes us uniquely human is language, our ability to communicate with sophisticated words, not just gestures, to be able to tell stories. And yet, Aaron was talking about all the planning and coordination and even bonding and connection, even thinking, right, without words. How do they do that? Is language as important as I thought it was? Where are you on that?

Starting point is 01:16:52 I think you'll help me find a more graceful way to say this. I think if language is in the picture, it's crucial. critically important. If language doesn't need to be in the picture for communication, but if language is a variable, then it becomes, I think about Ludwig Bittgenstein, the limits of my language are the limits of my world. And so I think because in a human species, we are kind of socially built around language, I think it's excruciatingly important. But can things exist without it? Yes. But I think if it's a variable, then you really need like emotional granularity, a strong vocabulary. I think those things become, especially because our research, we started it maybe 15 years ago asking folks, please make a list of every emotion that you can recognize when you're feeling it. And the mean number was three, happy, sad, and pissed off. And so, you know, so imagine. if you are shoving every experiment, every experience you have as a human being into one of those

Starting point is 01:18:08 three buckets. So where is awe? Where is wonder? Where's anguish? Where's despair? Where's joy? Where, you know, like you're just, it's so crude, the buckets are so crude that it literally does change your lived experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really well put. You know, it, it reminds me of the research by Paula Niedenthal and colleagues on historical migration patterns and emotional expressiveness and body language and tone. Do you know this work? No, I don't. Oh, I found this so interesting. And you just connected dots for me on this. So basically, they look around the world and they want to know why are some cultures more emotionally expressive than others. And I think the basic, if you look at their map of emotional expressiveness,

Starting point is 01:19:00 Like, why are the Americas, like, doing so much with their arms and their faces and, like, with their tones? And you go to Japan and it's much more reserved. Right. And in a couple of their studies, they show that basically how many different languages came together to form the country is a clear predictor of how emotionally expressive their region is. Like, in Japan, everyone spoke the same language. And so they didn't need the gestures. and the tones and the body language. And in the Americas, okay, even Spanish versus Portuguese,

Starting point is 01:19:37 we've got to do more to try to convey what we're expressing. And the dot you just connected for me was this is exactly what chimps are doing. They don't have the words. They don't have the extensive, they don't have the nuance of spoken language. Right, right. And so they've gotten really good. at the subtle gestures and the tones that substitute. Yeah, and you can see, like in the documentary,

Starting point is 01:20:06 I was so interested to see some of those gestures seemed just kind of from birth with the babies, but some of them you could see were being taught. You know, some of the calls, some of the gestures were being taught. And so, yeah, I think it's so interesting to me. I could have to watch. Yeah, I think especially now, knowing Aaron, I think you would love to watch it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:20:34 I'm like you. I don't want to see some of those events. I will tell you that. Animals being hurt. It's, it's their very, they don't show it. Okay, good. You know, no, no, there's nothing graphic about it at all. Oh, I would have never made it.

Starting point is 01:20:48 No. Yeah. This was a good one. I loved it. Thank you for, thank you for have my chimpanzee dream come true here. It was long overdue, and we didn't even talk about the bridge that he built between us because he did his doctorate at Michigan and he teaches at UT Austin. Huck him. Go blue.

Starting point is 01:21:09 The Curiosity Shop is produced by Bray Brown, Education and Research Group, and granted productions. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcast.com. can't be amazing. I mean, maybe someone recommended that TV show you've been obsessed with lately. But when it comes to home projects, it's different. If you don't like a show, you might lose a few minutes. If you hire a friend of a friend of a friend to fix a leaky ceiling, you could end up with a flooded kitchen. Maybe I know a guy just isn't enough for your home. That's why Thumbtack works so well. They'll match you with a top-rated local pro, and you can see photos of past work,

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Starting point is 01:22:58 You're going to meet Christine, who has a new baby named Isabel. and an older daughter named Nadine. You're going to see Nadine's frustration. We're going to talk about that, about having a little baby in the neighborhood now who's getting all the attention. We're also going to talk about Jackson, the 31-year-old Alpha of the group

Starting point is 01:23:17 who is currently being challenged by a new, very aggressive male. Who are these folks? These are members of one of the largest chimpanzee communities in the world. And on the Curiosity Shop this week, we're talking to anthropologists and primatologist, Dr. Aaron Sande, about what he and his colleagues have learned about alliances, social structures, and the violence

Starting point is 01:23:39 that can tear communities apart. The story of the Ngogo Chimps is the subject of the Netflix documentary Chimp Empire. Today, as humans navigate war, polarization, and growing distrust. We'll ask Aaron what we might be able to learn from the chimps in Ngogo about how social bonds are built, how they break, and why they're so critical to holding communities together. Welcome to The Curiosity Shop. from the Fox Media Podcast Network. So today,

Starting point is 01:24:12 Adam and I are both excited and I'm losing my mind. We have Dr. Aaron Sandell. He's an associate professor in anthropology at the University of Texas at Austin. He is co-director of the Ngogo Chimpanzee project.

Starting point is 01:24:26 He received his Ph.D. in anthropology from, I'm going to have to give this to Adam, the University of Michigan. There you go. I'm giving it to you. He's still. Studies are closest ape relatives to understand social bonds and the emotions that animate them.

Starting point is 01:24:39 Since 2012, he has studied wild chimpanzees at Nengogo in Uganda. We're excited he's here. Let's bring them on. First of all, welcome. Thank you. And I hope you've cleared your calendar because I am in full, look at it, I can't even take it. I'm in full on five-year-old kindergartner mode. I have questions about questions.

Starting point is 01:25:04 Perfect. I mean, Bray, you've been talking about chimps and wanted to do an episode on chimps since before we had a podcast together. Okay, so let's start with what's on your website. I love this. So on your website, you write, we are facing crises of loneliness, polarization, and conflict. Why? Part of the problem is that we don't fully understand the nature and importance of the social bonds that hold communities together. You write, I study our closest ape relatives to understand social bonds and the emotions that animate them. I have studied chimpanzees in Uganda since 2012, including a rare violent conflict between chimpanzees. I am expanding my research now to mountain gorillas and humans. I love this. You write, I draw from evolutionary biology, anthropology, and

Starting point is 01:25:50 psychology, and I use a range of tools, including network analyses, machine learning, and interchronology to understand how social bonds are formed, maintained, and sometimes fall apart. Let me ask you this question. I have so many questions. Like, I want to know if Abrams still leading the pack over there, or if he ever really fully took his role as the alpha. Can we just start there? Yeah, Abrams in the central group.

Starting point is 01:26:19 He should be still the alpha. Yeah, he took, he fully became the alpha. Because Chimp Empire was filmed mostly around 2021. And that was right as he was sort of trying to establish himself. I don't want to give spoilers. I mean, there's going to be a lot of spoilers that we discussed today for those who haven't seen Chimp Empire. But, yeah, he became the alpha of the Central Group.

Starting point is 01:26:45 And there's not a lot of competition there. So he's been able to hold that position. I had an over-under on Gus coming out and whooping some A. Abrams' ass and taking over because, look, I had to call my husband like five times, and he's like, get off the chimp empire. No, I love that. Yeah, Gus's great chimp didn't have a chance at Alpha, though. In my opinion, great, he's sensitive, grooming.

Starting point is 01:27:17 He was a great older brother. He was a good younger brother. But, yeah, doesn't have the same. suite of traits, I think, that would lead someone to become alpha. Okay, wait a minute. Back up, Aaron, because I think I'm the stand-in for the audience today. I have not seen Chimp Empire. Who are Abram and Gus? What am I missing? These are some of the young adults and adolescent male chimps in one of the chimpanzee groups at Ngogo, which is this population of chimpanzees in the middle of Kibali National Park in western Uganda.

Starting point is 01:27:54 And this is a huge chunk of forest, especially for anywhere in Uganda or East Africa. It's this big chunk of forest. It's been really well protected. The Uganda Wildlife Authority has been protecting this chunk of forest. And it's been a national park for over 30 years. And the Ngogo chimpanzees are in the middle of that park. So they're surrounded on all sides by other forests. They're surrounded by other chimpanzee groups.

Starting point is 01:28:21 So we really get to see a lot of their natural behavior as they would interact with each other, but also with chimps from other outside groups. And we will discuss, I think this will come up a lot, is the dynamics among these two groups adding go-go, but chimp empire follows these two neighboring chimpanzee groups. Abrams was this young adult male who was rising in the dominance hierarchy in the central group. Gus was this adolescent male. He was sort of living his best life in the Sancho group.

Starting point is 01:28:54 I just feel like the documentary and what you're studying explains so much. I got to ask you this. When you think there are lessons about loneliness and polarization and conflict that we as humans can learn from primates, I think did you set out to study, did you set out to be a primatologist so you could learn about us from them? or did you observe, was this a priori kind of thing, or did you observe them and like, oh, man, we've got some lessons we can learn here? It's a good question. I'm a sort of, on the one hand, a rare case, but sort of common. I think in animal behavior and primatology where this was a lifelong dream to study apes in the wild. Since I was five, I wanted to study gorillas. It was like childhood dream, age five, got a stuffed animal gorilla, got a whole. completely hooked at age five, all my sort of creative energy since age five was going into thinking about wild apes. Wow. And so then this, and I mean, my classmates in second grade, they called me gorilla. Even my teacher let me sign my name on my papers as gorilla. I was obsessed. And then,

Starting point is 01:30:14 so like fast forward in college, I sort of got more interested in human evolution. And ape evolution, but really at that point, I was interested in gorilla behavior just because I had this lifelong passion for gorillas. And I'd spent time at the zoo throughout high school in Boston. So I developed this interest in gorillas just for their own sake, just the sort of beauty of the natural world, the complexity of their lives, even in their subtleties. And then, so I was really almost interested in humans insofar as they could help me understand gorillas. Yeah. It was like a little flipped from the typical biological anthropologist evolutionary sort of framework where we're trying to understand humans.

Starting point is 01:30:58 It was flipped for me. But then I got interested in humans too. I thought, I mean, humans are fascinating, obviously. And I got really excited by thinking about humans and our closest relatives, chimps, gorillas, bonobos. And then I really got interested in chimps. I think it was college where I shifted. I got interested in more of these questions of social bonds, cooperation. and aggression to some extent, dominance relationships.

Starting point is 01:31:24 And then I did that for my PhD studying chimps at Ngogo. And I got on this sort of chimp track and started studying their social relationships. They're sort of asking, initially it was asking the question, do they have what we can really call friendship? That was the main motivation and how did these relationships develop. And then in studying that, I became more interested in these broader themes of, Emotions, loneliness, and conflict. And I would say just the connection to emotions in particular

Starting point is 01:31:56 was when thinking more deeply about friendship, like how do we define friendship in chimps? We have to figure out how we define it in humans. These are concepts that we borrow from understanding our own lives. And I came to realize, really, the way to understand a social bond or a friendship is about how we feel in those relationships. It's not necessarily just based on behavior alone.

Starting point is 01:32:21 I don't think you could usually figure out or two people friends based on that. It's about their emotions. So then I said, okay, this is sort of fast-forwarding to where I'm at now. I'm like, how do we study emotions then in chimps? And then I was like, oh, let me just go to the psychologists and figure out how we study humans. And then I realized that's maybe a complicated question, even just for humans. So I've been excited by thinking,

Starting point is 01:32:47 how do we actually study emotions across species. But it's really this back and forth. I think I'm always still interested in what can I learn about humans from studying chimps? What can I learn about chimps from thinking more about humans? How many questions do you have right now, Renee? Oh, my God. I want you to write an Atlas of the Heart for the Chimpanzees. I'm thinking, okay, here's what I'm thinking.

Starting point is 01:33:13 Let me get focused. I'm so excited. Okay. You know why we had you on now? This is crazy. We had you on now because huge World Cup fans, we watched all of it, and then we interviewed a lot of people about the World Cup. And one of the things that happened with Raj Bennett, with Rebecca Lowe, with John Green,

Starting point is 01:33:31 the author, is we got to this question with the World Cup every time, can there be a we without a them? And is the strength of the we and the sense of belonging and community, does it require an enemy. And so, you know, like my enemy from this past weekend would be Newcastle, where I ended up with a draw as a Liverpool fan. So this is why I wanted to talk to you. And what I'm really mad about, to be honest with you, is they have plenty of fruit, the Western and the Central, have plenty of fruit. This is like authoritarianism to me. Plenty of fruit, plenty of space. They do not need to go all alpha male all the time. It is an inherently broken part of human. I mean,

Starting point is 01:34:20 something is wrong. Can I just build on that? So I have, I guess, the same puzzle, which is we normally think about conflict emerging from resource scarcity and two groups fighting over is something that they both want. But to Renee's point, that's not the case here. Why are these chimps at war? Right. These are great questions. The us versus is them and then why did these chimpanzee groups or are they engaged in this lethal conflict that's been going on since 2018 essentially? I think, I mean, this is again where I think chimpanzees can inform some of these questions about human behavior. Okay. And I would say, I mean, my sort of hot take based on analyzing data on chimpanzees, watching chimpanzees,

Starting point is 01:35:13 isn't really studying this conflict, which we should talk about because Chimp Empire is one of this amazing documentary. It's probably the most accurate wildlife documentary ever made that I've seen because it's just really just telling the true story. In some cases, they simplify things because there's no way you could tell in four episodes. The complexity is a story. They make a few simplifications for the viewer, but it's just really following the lives of the chimps.

Starting point is 01:35:45 And it's not, but in the documentary, one thing, it's important to note. It's talking about the conflict between the Western group and the Central Group. What it doesn't really emphasize is that this used to be one group. I mean, in the documentary, they don't feature that prominently. So it's an even more complex dynamic when we see that they're fighting in the Western chimps or attacking and killing chimps from the Central Group. So there's an interesting thing there. My hot take is, I don't think you need,

Starting point is 01:36:10 an enemy to build community. I don't think you needed them for an us. And this is something, this is sort of a hypothesis I have from watching the chimpanzees, and we can, I think, unpack that later. But the main thing, I mean, there's the dominance dynamics.

Starting point is 01:36:28 Those are all within a group. Right. Whether you like Abrams or Jackson and the dominance hierarchy, that's the within group dynamics, and then they're the between group dynamics. And it's not necessarily clear how these are directed.

Starting point is 01:36:40 directly related because usually despite competition within a group, they all come together. They sort of put aside their differences to patrol the borders of their territory, defend it against outsider chimp groups, and even to go on the offensive and go into the outsider group territory. But the main interesting dynamic for me is that the Western and Central groups used to be one community. They were one group for decades and decades, as long as they've been studied since 1995, 93. They were one group, and we only really saw signs of this polarization occurring around 2015. And then they became two separate groups in 2018. Why? Why? Yeah, what happened? Men, boys, male, males. Well, this is where, uh, this is where I think on the one hand,

Starting point is 01:37:34 there's definitely something about the dominance hierarchy that's relevant here. Just one thing important to note with chimps, the adult male chimps form a dominance hierarchy, and they tend to be higher ranking than all the adult females. This is something that sort of happens during adolescence. And it's not exactly clear what the point of being an alpha is for a chimp. I mean, in a small group, the alpha male. gets sort of priority in mating. He can keep other males away when he wants to mate with a certain female.

Starting point is 01:38:13 Female chimps certainly have some choice in who they mate with, but they also are sort of pressured by the adult males often to mate. But the main sort of, it seems, the main reason a chimp would become the alpha is he doesn't have to defer to any other male chimp. And then if you're high ranking, you know, you have to defer to the alpha. or the second ranking, but you don't have to defer to anyone else. And by defer, this really means if you see another chimp through the course of the day, you'll give a little grunt maybe to indicate your deference or your submission, the pant grunt.

Starting point is 01:38:48 And there could be a little aggression that still occurs, slapping, chasing, but it's mostly these bluffs. And the one, I would say the one, I'm sort of an advocate to some extent for the dominance hierarchy because it can potentially reduce aggression, because you sort of know where you fall. It's not strictly sort of this negative thing on the one hand. But then the other important thing to note with chimps, the alpha is not the leader.

Starting point is 01:39:15 The alpha is not necessarily one who is, you know, rallying the group together or leading the hunts or leading territorial patrols. It's just the fact that in this one domain, he doesn't have to grunt indifference to other males. Okay. Oh, my God. I have so many, okay, so.

Starting point is 01:39:34 Same. Okay, so I really dislike this about humans. I have to say I really dislike this about as human, about humans and about the chimps. Because here's the story I was making up, and this is coming from someone who studies human emotions. I'm making up the story that everything's okay until Jackson is like, we have to patrol the border. And then he's a shit starter. And he's like everyone comes, everybody goes with him. And he's putting them at risk. It's like what I see in politics today, you're giving us an enemy and keeping us in fear to maintain your position. Like you're manufacturing

Starting point is 01:40:28 conflict that doesn't exist. Like take Caroline. Caroline. The airline's got this new baby, right? And I thought I was very... Christine, yeah. Christine, yeah. Very offended that she wasn't named for a year because they die so often, right? The babies. But, Adam, guess what puts the babies in peril often? The men going and fighting? No, just the men, just this has been swaggering around and doing these displays of, like, nobody's after them. They're just running through, knocking down limbs and shit, and looking tough, and then the baby gets caught in that. So think about this politically right now.

Starting point is 01:41:08 A fragile ego leader goes around stomping on things to prove that he's tough and there are innocent casualties. Now, is that true or not, Aaron? Am I signing too much? No, I love the – these are great hypotheses. Maybe it's worth just trying to give you the sort of really brief overview of what happened. I sort of started talking about this, but then there's so much stuff that is exciting to talk about. So the background, like before Chimp Empire, you had this one group of chimps at Ngogo, and the alpha at the time was Miles.

Starting point is 01:41:45 As long as I've worked, like when I started working there in 2012, it was Miles was the alpha. He was the former alpha before Jackson. Miles, Jackson's sidekick Miles? Yeah, because Miles is a huge, really bulky, big adult man. and he sort of, it seems he became the alpha because he was huge. He was just like not necessarily as political. Before Miles, the alpha was Bartok, who was this more smaller average size male, but really had these social bonds, these long-term alliances.

Starting point is 01:42:18 He was able to attain that status and maintain it because of those relationships. Miles came in. Miles was actually really good at grooming other chimps. He would groom kids. He'd groom adults. He was, you know, I think of good alpha in that regard. He wasn't necessarily the best leader, but this was a time in 2009, 10, 11, right before I started working there, the Ngogo chimps is when the central and western groups were still one community. It's a huge group.

Starting point is 01:42:47 It's the biggest group of chimps known to scientists. 150, 200 chimps. Because they have so many males, adult males especially, they were really successful in, you. territorial interactions, these territorial patrols, attacking, killing chimps from other groups, infants and adults. And they expanded their territory. They expanded largely to the northeast, but they were really good at defending and even increasing the size of the territory. More females came in. You saw an increase in fertility females with the bigger group, probably were able to have more kids. The group is growing largely because of females and kids. You have these

Starting point is 01:43:26 sort of neighborhoods that always exist, the central, eastern, western neighborhoods, but they still are always intermingling, and you have miles as the alpha over all of them, just like Bartok had been the alpha over all of them before. And then my first two summers there in 2012, 2013, I mean, if you want to talk about vulnerability, it was so hard learning 200 chimps. This was like the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, learning 200 chimps, learning the forest, figuring out a research project, a child's a dream, like, confronting that, like having to realize a child of dream was the hardest thing that's ever happened to me. And there are plenty of times I was thinking about quitting, and I could still be a primatologist,

Starting point is 01:44:11 but I was like, I can't study wild chimps. It's boring. It's hard. How am I going to learn 200 chimps? Were you scared too? Not so scared. I probably should have been of, I mean, I was scared of this losing a part of my identity. I was gorilla boy. I was this person who blown out birthday candles for 20 years wishing to become a gorilla scientist. Now here I am sitting chimps. So it's like child of dream already not quite there, but it's pretty close. You know, one genus off. But it's hard and boring. And a lot of that it's because I just don't know all the individuals. I can't recognize them in an instant because to understand, you know, what makes, you know, I think any life interesting. Like what makes, you know, what makes. chimpanzee life interesting is you see the you can recognize them you can tell what's happening I mean these documentaries that have these amazing footage you know zoomed in they're still you know synthesizing a lot of stuff with the with the narrative but when you're actually there with binoculars and the chimps in a tree like 100 feet up in a big fig tree it's hard to keep your

Starting point is 01:45:17 neck craned and looking through the leaves and seeing who's doing what I mean it's it's really demoralizing so while all this is happening I'm learning slowly learning the chimps. And Miles is the alpha, the entire community. He's from the central neighborhood. Jackson was born in the western neighborhood. And he, as a young adult, moved to the central neighborhood. Because I noticed that there were sort of these distinct, I think, almost personalities in the three different neighborhoods. The central neighborhood was your classic, like chimpanzee group you would find in East Africa, like Uganda or Tanzania, where the highest ranking males are all sort of traveling together, following around whatever female is ovulating, trying to mate with her.

Starting point is 01:46:01 The adolescent males are sort of on the periphery, tagging along. That's sort of the textbook chimp behavior. In the western neighborhood, it was more like chimps actually in West Africa, where the males and females are actually more cohesive with each other. So there's still like high-ranking males. There's still aggression, but males are grooming females a lot. A lot of times, you know, high rank, if you're high ranking, you're more likely to have a kid, but also males and females that spent more time together are more likely to have kids together. So it was like this slightly different, I don't know, dynamic. Maybe like the central group was more like football players and the Western group was more like soccer players or something. I'm just trying to think of like. No, I'm totally

Starting point is 01:46:47 getting at like total players in the central and coupley relationship. So sweet. Boy, but I'm anti-Western, So I don't know how this is paying out for my narrative, but go ahead. And then in the east, those are more the freaks and the geeks. Those were males and females were sort of cohesive still, but some of them were really emotionally reactive, like almost a little anxious. They would be quick to get nervous and grimace. But they would give each other these reassuring touches. They were quick to reassure each other.

Starting point is 01:47:18 And there were two males in there who were very chill and very sweet, Dexter and Mulligan who were like very calm not reactive and they would be quick to you know give these nervous chimps a pat on the back pat on the butt hand to the mouth they do you know like in old movies when someone gets nervous and they put they bite their fist yeah yeah i think that's a vestige of probably our this ape behavior where you're nervous and uh you want someone else to put their hand in your mouth so chimps will do this oh i saw that they reassure each other by putting a hand in the other's mouth or putting a hand on their genitals or something like that, and that calms them down. So these are sort of the neighborhoods, and the interesting dynamic is

Starting point is 01:48:03 Jackson, who grew up in the West, this young adult male now sort of in his early 20s, he's rising in the hierarchy. This is like 2013, especially 2014. But he's rising really fast. And then in 2014, It was my third summer. I've like decided despite like, the prior summer I decided to quit field parametology, my PhD advisor sort of called my bluff. And I was like, alright, fine, I'll do it. I'll just go out.

Starting point is 01:48:34 I'll study adolescent young adult male social relationships. And I, you know, develop various strategies where I think I could potentially succeed in doing this field work. So I'm like, I'm going to be here for 15 months studying these chimps. Jeez. We get there that summer in, 2014, and we realized after a few weeks that five of these older adult male chimps have died. They were in there around age 40, which for a chimp is sort of old for a male.

Starting point is 01:49:03 I think that they all died within around a month of each other, suggesting some of them at least died from a disease. And these were old males who were really well connected, and I haven't run the social network analyses on this because it's sort of a difficult question to answer, but they were certainly well connected with a lot of the other chimps. Some of them even seeming like bridges between the eastern and central neighborhood or bridges between the central and western neighborhood. It's like the mafia. So these would disappear.

Starting point is 01:49:28 And you don't know at first because chimpanzees like humans, they're never all together in the same place at the same time. It's like a village where you're mixing in part. Like, yeah, you have friends and family, spend more time together. But throughout the day, they're intermingling. They can go days or weeks without seeing each other. So as researchers, we're going weeks without seeing some of these chimps. where's Pinser, where's Berg, where's Dolphy, where's Webster, where's Mingus,

Starting point is 01:49:51 and then after a couple months we realized they're gone. They're gone forever. They died. And I don't think we realized at first that this likely had a big impact. I think the neighborhoods became now more distinct. There used to be three neighborhoods that were really well connected by a handful of individual chimps. Those are now gone at the same time that Jackson is is shooting up in the dominance hierarchy. And then I go there for, I'm there for a year, finally learn all the chimps, and I have this research project that's motivating me,

Starting point is 01:50:24 and I've sort of learned the forest, become really competent at recognizing the chimps, knowing what's going on. At the end of that year, Jackson finally takes his chance and gets, charges Miles, and a month later, Miles Pank Grunts to him. And that was like the takeover.

Starting point is 01:50:44 And it was this day in June in 2015 that that happened. And John Matani, who's been studying these chimps for at that time, it had been 20 years. That was 2015. He saw, he was the only one that saw Miles grunt in submission to Jackson. So now Jackson is essentially the alpha. He still has to sort of establish himself over the subsequent weeks. And Miles has to, you know, retain his high-ranking position,

Starting point is 01:51:13 unless he's going to fall. Right. And it was that afternoon, though, I was with chimps from the Western neighborhood. And it was the end of the day, and I was alone with them. We were in the middle of the territory. And they hear other chimps, and it must be chimps from the central neighborhood, Miles Jackson, those other chimps. They're just an earshot. And the chimps that I'm with, rather than sort of approaching them and reuniting in typical chimpanzee fashion, they become quiet, they become nervous.

Starting point is 01:51:41 They start grimacing. They're embracing each other, touching each other, and re-establishing. they're acting like they're hearing outsiders. And then when they see the central chimpanzees approach, rather than reunite, they run. And the central chimpanzees then chase them. And this was the first time we'd really seen like avoidance among chimps from the same community. And then they avoid each other for six weeks. And nothing like that had ever been observed before. And I think, you know, knowing then learning at the end of the day that, oh, Jackson had finally got Miles to pancrant to him, I think the Western chimps must have heard in the vocalization some heightened tension.

Starting point is 01:52:25 And it had been, there's a risk to every reunion, even on a normal day. And I think it was like the Western chimps were like, there's too much tension, it's not worth the risk, they ran, in which I can sort of understand, because Miles was sort of a hothead for a while afterwards, he was being more aggressive than normal. Jackson was being more aggressive establishing himself. So it makes sense, but I think they planted this seed of polarization. So, I mean, that we can debate then to what extent the question about the us versus them. Do you need a them for an us?

Starting point is 01:52:58 But the Western neighborhood had already sort of been a cohesive unit, I think. They were already pretty cohesive. They had the six weeks of avoidance, after which they all came back together. If things seemed to return to normal, I finished my. field work for my PhD, but then as I was gone, writing up, other researchers were there, but they slowly became more and more polarized. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them

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Starting point is 01:54:36 Let's take the Cadillac. Find out more at Cadillac Canada.ca.ca. Luxury sales claim based on S&P Global Mobility Canadian New Vehicle Total Register For Calendar Year 2025 for the Cadillac Definition of Luxury. I want to tell you, so if you're listening and you're going to watch Chimp Empire, I'm going to give you a spoiler here. One thing, I didn't want, on the initial Border Patrol thing, I didn't want Gus to go.

Starting point is 01:55:04 I mean, I knew he had to go, but I didn't want him to go. I wanted him to stay safe, and I definitely didn't want Pork Pie to go. And pork pie didn't make he got scared and he went home, right, during this border. Like, he left. But I had to tell you about the bad guys in this show. Adam, are you laughing at me? Like, I- Keep going.

Starting point is 01:55:28 I had to wait a long time between one and two because I was distraught. I call my husband crying. And he's like, you can't watch animal documentaries. For the Western chimpanzees. to sneak into a territory and kill someone in their own territory. Well, that was brutal. It's brutal, but it is a typical part of chimpanzee behavior. It's not so common, but around, I mean, chimpanzees will do these territorial patrols.

Starting point is 01:56:03 They'll get a large group of especially adult males, some adult females, and usually a few adolescent females will go. to the edge of their territory sometimes, but also often they'll then do these deeper incursions into the outsider's territory. And it's still unclear exactly what's, what sort of the chimps are thinking when they're doing these. Some, I think, sometimes it is they're trying to find a fig tree or certain fruit trees that are near the border. And so to feel safe eating there, they need to go deeper, make sure there's no other chimps from the outsider group. Because at the border, there may be some trees that are shared by two groups. Other times, I think certain individual chimps in particular are motivated to go on territorial patrols. Some are motivated to

Starting point is 01:56:52 attack and kill chimps from other groups. And they can even try to rally. And how they do this, we do not know, because chimps, they have vocalizations, they have gestures, they have nothing like human language, spoken language. They're somehow coordinating, I think, all of this through non-verbal really subtle bodily cues and context and things that are sort of the next big questions, I think, for chimpanzee research. But they will attack and kill. I think, I mean, for me, it feels almost like when chimpanzees are doing this, like, because across chimpanzee sites, they attack and killed chimps from other groups. And we've learned this over the last, you know, 50 years of people setting chimps. But usually they're killing a stranger, a stranger, a stranger,

Starting point is 01:57:38 that. It's adult males, because adult males are born in the group, they stay in that group their whole lives. So any adult male chimp that they see that they don't know is from this other group. So it's a stranger. And it seems like adult male chimps are sort of xenophobic. They have this fear of strangers. And then, so when they see one from another group, they'll run if they're outnumbered or they'll go and try to attack and kill them. Yeah, it's brutal. But it's a familiar phenomenon. I mean, from the human perspective too. But with the Ngogo chimps, these are

Starting point is 01:58:13 two groups that used to be one. They're not strangers to each other. There were one group that finally became two groups at the end of 2017. They had finally split. And then it was in 2018 that we saw the first lethal attack by chimps from the Western group

Starting point is 01:58:31 against the chimp from the central group. Wow. And that was, I finished my PhD. I went back to Uganda for eight months to sort of especially tracked this polarization. And I got there and I realized right away, it's like, whoa, this is really changed. Not only are they socially distinct, they've really divided the territory. Now, the Western Chips stay in the West, Central Chim Stay in the Central. There was one old male BF who was sort of more a Westerner.

Starting point is 01:59:00 He was with the Centralers. He was the last Chimp that would go back and forth. I remember following him in this plateau in the most. middle of the forest where there's a lot of different fruit trees. And he was just traveling there alone. It was the center of the territory now as this borderland. And I was expecting, you know, when is he going to go back to join the Westerners? And then it was in January, 2018, we started seeing more and more territorial patrols against these former group members. The Central ships with patrol to the West, the Western ships would patrol Central. And then it was 2018 when the

Starting point is 01:59:37 Westerners killed this young adult male, Errol. And that was like for me witnessing that, it really like shifted my perspective. I was like, oh, wow, this split is real. They're treating these chimps as outsiders. And then I was sort of learning alongside the chimps, these shifting dynamics. Because I think Errol showed up to this part of the, not realizing that the Western chimps would really see him as an outsider and that they would kill him. Aaron, the parallels to human conflict are they're sort of, they're smacking you right in the face, right?

Starting point is 02:00:10 You have a perceived slight or insult or aggression on the part of, you know, a former friend or group member. And all of a sudden, now we're locked in some kind of in-group out-group dynamic. And it almost doesn't matter where it started because each side can point to the other and say, they're dangerous, they're a threat. They did this to us. And therefore, we need to defend ourselves. and then the line starts to blur between, like, offense and defense. Like, you protect yourself by attacking.

Starting point is 02:00:41 How do you make sense of that? And how do you think about getting out of it? I think when the conflict started, I mean, a lot of these questions are hard to answer scientifically, but, I mean, what I'm really interested is that shift. Like, when did the new group identities really emerge and then override prior relationships? and there was always this ambiguity there because the first chimp that we saw killed Errol, he was 16, he was sort of a loner even within the central group.

Starting point is 02:01:14 So when he met the Westerners, it made sense that they would sort of see him more as an outsider. And this was still a time when they were, they accepted BF, they accepted this old male who they had a really close relationship to. And so there's this emergence of in-group, out-group dynamic. But there was still plausible deniability. I think the senior professors didn't want to accept that the group was splitting. I mean, it took us a long time.

Starting point is 02:01:47 We wrote this paper that was just published in April in the journal Science, just sort of describing what happened and using this long-term data to analyze it, but combined with the more qualitative accounts, it took us so long to write it partly because it's this huge team effort we have like all these professors graduate students, you've gone and

Starting point is 02:02:09 staff, people who've been working there for decades and decades and then wanting to do in a really clear way but also scientifically, statistically rigorous way. It was this huge effort, but I think it also took so long because it was really hard for the researchers to admit that

Starting point is 02:02:27 the split was happening and then even to think about it, even to analyze the data. I mean, I now want to write a book about this, but I think part of my writer's block is like this emotional toll of watching chimps being killed and watching also the killers, which in that regard, I'm actually, I don't really hold it against them, which is an interesting phenomenon in its own right. But why not? I don't know. I think, I mean, because I saw Errol killed. Errol was a 16-year-old. He'd been the subject of my dissertation.

Starting point is 02:03:04 He was one of the 18 young males that I focused on. So I was looking at him, you know, for 15 months. He was one of the main chimps that I was looking at, writing down who he was interacting with. He was an orphan. He had a close relationship to his much older brother, Dizzy. They were both the smallest chimps in the whole community. And I remember even him before my decision. my real dissertation research in 2012, 2013 watching him. He was a little shy, this little loner

Starting point is 02:03:33 adolescent orphan with these two older brothers. One brother died in 2014, and then his older brother died in 2017. There was a disease outbreak. So it was really sad to watch Errol be killed and die. I was in the moment I still have this, which is almost troubling. Like I look at the video footage that I took. and can hear, you know, I'm narrating it with this objective voice. Re-watching it, it's like, it's sad to watch, and it's also almost troubling. Like, I'm curious about my own mental state at the time. I remember, though, that night, like, once the day was over, Errol had died.

Starting point is 02:04:14 We got a vet in to sort of assess the body and the wounds, and then we buried his body so that we could collect the bones later, because that's an important rare scientific opportunity to have the skeleton of a wild chimp. And then that night, emailing the senior professors to tell them that this had happened, it was really, that was like, you know, I'm sitting on the porch in the dark and this cabin in the middle of the forest. And that's when, like, the emotions sort of come and I cried and reflecting more on the emotion. Because these are chimps that, it's weird.

Starting point is 02:04:50 They're, like, we have this one-sided relationship with all. or just following them around in the forest. They ignore us, but we learn about their lives, and Errol was certainly someone I knew really well. And yet, I don't hold it against the chimps who were attacking him. And I almost have grace for them because I motivated to understand what caught, like why did the group split? I'm motivated to understand even the sort of psychology underlying lethal aggression in chimps.

Starting point is 02:05:21 And partly, I mean, they're trying. chimps, so I don't have the same, you know, moral standard, of course, that I would have for a human. But it just, to me, it seems like this more, I want a systemic understanding of what's happening. And I don't know what it is, but I do seem to have this sort of grace for the individual chimps. Wow. Aaron, it sounds like demonizing them would stand in the way of understanding them. I think it could, yeah, I think it could stand in the way of understanding them. them and understanding what's going on.

Starting point is 02:05:55 And it's like, again, I'm a scientist watching this dynamic unfold. There's something to be said for, you know, objectivity and distance. But I'm also really wanting to understand the phenomenon. And it's like, I can't stop it for many reasons. I mean, it wouldn't be safe. These are chimps. Like, there's no way to intervene, really. But also there's something to be said out of respect for the chimps to let this unfold.

Starting point is 02:06:22 And then just to see how can we understand it, yeah, I think, like, and there may be a lesson here also for deepening our sort of understanding of conflict and aggression and violence and war in humans. I wonder to what extent we should focus our attention more on sort of the causes and the context and maybe less demonization of the individuals who are perpetrating these horrible things. Of course, with humans, you have to hold people accountable for what they do. but maybe the demonization gets in the way. I mean, I think that's probably true. I just, one thing I've learned is, and I probably knew it going into this conversation, I definitely know it now.

Starting point is 02:07:04 I would be the absolute worst. I would be the worst at your job of anybody in the whole world. Because I would be armed, and if you came against the people that I have named and that I love, and that I have, I know their story and their narrative, You know, and it's also, I think the thing that's hard is, like, I was with my family and I was telling you about this and they're like, stop talking about the chimps. And it reminded me of when we would interview people asking them, what is vulnerability? How many hundreds, if not thousands of people said to us in these interviews, any animal dying in a film is absolute vulnerability in the people.

Starting point is 02:07:49 who do it should go straight to hell. Like just like just the the reaction that we have that I think if I were one of the senior researchers, it would take me a long time to write that paper too because I would want something different for them than what we have for us. I would want something pure and better and less susceptible to what makes humans so hard. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the one thing to note is that in this case, the chimps who are doing to killing are also chimps that, you know, we've known, that researchers have named and we know their stories too.

Starting point is 02:08:36 So it does create the more, it's a bit more of a complex picture than typical intergroup regression where you don't know the chimps who might be attacking chimps from your group. can you find a dead body of a chimp, presumably killed by the outsider group. It's different, I think. But you don't immediately go, you don't immediately go, like, you know, here are these chimps that killed this person that I've been studying. And now, in my scientific narrative, they are the bad guys moving forward. A crippling cruelty has taken over the Western group. Like, you, like.

Starting point is 02:09:12 Yeah, I would, I empathize with the, sentiment and I think some of the I would bet that if I think a lot of our team feels that way to some extent I think some of them do yeah I think some of the researchers do feel that way yeah and I think you know it's like what we talk about at the dinner table that's where we do more anthropomorphizing which is still based in our like yeah observation so it's like when professional primatologists are anthropomorphizing it's grounded in um if not in like quantitative data. It's grounded in our experience of watching the chimps and knowing their relationships. And I mean, so much of animal behavior and anthropology is sort of having a vibe about what's

Starting point is 02:09:56 happening. And then if you're a good scientist, articulating the vibe. Yes. And like with chimps, it took me so long to learn what are they going to do next. Like, what are they possibly thinking and feeling? Most of that's still a vibe. I mean, it's based on context. Where am I in the forest? Oh, they're at this fig. that they were at a couple years ago, they usually take this path, they go there, they'll likely patrol. It took me a decade to get to the point where I'm like, okay, I think this is what I'm noticing about them. These are the subtle movements. These are subtle behaviors. Yeah, I mean, it's for me, though, I don't know why I just really don't, I don't hold it against the

Starting point is 02:10:39 ones who are doing the attacking. And part of it is so much of that dynamic, we see that dynamic unfolding. We see it emerging and then unfolding and there's sort of a this positive side to a lot of those dynamics on a territorial patrol. It's an amazing opportunity for bonding and mentorship. It's like two of the, often the instigators of patrols in the West, Rollins and his younger brother Damien. Damien was this adolescent male whose mother had died in this disease outbreak in 2017. and he and his younger sister, this little juvenile, were sort of adopted by their much older brother Rollins. And it was like they were on patrols together.

Starting point is 02:11:23 And Damien grew up and he was like really motivated, I think, to go on territorial patrols himself, but he had his older brother, this sort of role modelist mentor. And in the West, because of the patrolling, I think there's a lot more almost egalitarianism, cross-age and dominance rank. and it does lead to more cohesion. That's, again, where you definitely see I get why so often we think you need a them for an us

Starting point is 02:11:50 because that happens for sure. But the West already had this sort of cohesion beforehand, but I think it is bolstered by these territorial patrols. I mean, it's amazing. Sometimes you also will see these long-term bonded individuals going on territorial patrols more often than with others. And I think it's like if you're with your friend, you're more, you're braver. And you're able to, like, go on the front lines.

Starting point is 02:12:16 There was one time, there's one time the Western Chimps were patrolling and they were going pushing in 2021 further and further east. They, you know, had moved in. This was probably, you know, in the weeks before they killed pork pie. And I was with the Western Chims and they get to this sort of further east and they typically went before, they start calling the central chimps, we can hear them, they are calling, and the Western chimps I'm with, they decided to give up, they turn around, but they sort of scatter, and I wasn't sure if some had gone ahead. So I rushed ahead to other calls, these screams, and

Starting point is 02:12:55 the chimps will bang on trees, the buttresses, the sort of roots of trees. And I get not very far away, and it's these two young adult males, Hayden and Booker from the central group, they are like on the front lines calling like sort of defending their territory most of the central chimps are hundreds of meter behind them but i think they were like these are small low-ranking chimps yeah but they were like i think emboldened by their their bonds with each other that booker is uh gus's was gus's older brother so it's like this interesting little family there but um yeah there's beauty and sort of cooperation and there's empathy there's so many of the positive dynamics that you're you see at play even in the midst of this aggression violence.

Starting point is 02:13:42 Aaron, at the beginning of this conversation, you mentioned you were curious about, do they have friendships and how do they form them? Where are you on that? I hear you talking about it sounds like chimps are bonding through grooming. It sounds like they're bonding through going on these sort of patrols. Are they friends? How do they become friends? How do you know?

Starting point is 02:14:06 If you're going to say they're not friends, I need some kind of disclaimer. Because you're going to break my heart, Aaron. There's the scientific caution about using terms that are commonly used by us in everyday speech and that are so defined by, I think, the human experience. And I think friendship is one of them. Primatologists have been debating to what extent you can use that term to describe the relationships of other animals for years.

Starting point is 02:14:33 I think that some chimps definitely are friends with each other. But I also, I mean, I think it still deserves more, more sort of deeper understanding of what we mean by friendship. And for that, we have to think about what we mean by friendship in humans. I don't think we have the best understanding of this yet. And I mean, until recently, and there's been, I think, a lot of good work. And Adam, I know you've been thinking about this a lot. But there wasn't a great scientific understanding of friendship. So often we would have to go back to Aristotle to sort of even get the framework.

Starting point is 02:15:12 And I think to some extent, there are two important points I think when I think about chimps. One is there's an important distinction between a friend and an ally. Oh, for sure. So often, like with Jackson, it was hard for me to know, are these his friends or are these his allies? Was Miles' friend or his ally? was Basie, his friend or his ally. Like, I think a friend, there's like a real emotional connection. You want to spend time together.

Starting point is 02:15:43 You sort of are calm when you're with them or excited when you see them, whereas an ally is someone who will come to your aid, but it might be for more utilitarian purposes. So it might be that, you know, Miles was an ally to Jackson. I'm not sure. but when circumstances change maybe it would be easier to break that tie. Yeah, Bernay. I mean, class, I can tell you for sure 100% that Miles was friends with Jackson.

Starting point is 02:16:20 And here's my empirical evidence. Because when Abrams was trying to fight his way up and was grooming, Miles and Jackson couldn't see Miles would not groom Abrams back he let him pick all the bugs off of him and then he just came a look and he was like you're not my friend

Starting point is 02:16:43 and then yes that would be... Well I think even that would be my hypothesis yeah it's a good hypothesis and I think those looks are actually what's key like we can't I don't I mean there's from behavior alone from these sort of broad measures of behavior You cannot, I don't think, determine friendship from grooming alone or how much time they spend

Starting point is 02:17:03 sitting near each other alone. I think it has to be partly a much more detailed subtler depiction of how, like, almost like facial expressions or these other patterns that are extremely difficult to determine in a chimp. And I mean, I think they're, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they're really difficult for humans. Like we don't necessarily have the system at it. Yeah. It's impossible.

Starting point is 02:17:27 But we as people are so good at sort of almost unconsciously picking up on this with humans, with each other. Yes. I mean, that's where the vibe, these gut feelings vibes. And then if you're really good at it, you become a good therapist or a poker champion or a psychic or something. I hope not. You're still psychic. Yeah, you're lost. I'm not talking.

Starting point is 02:17:53 I don't mean like East Village, like little kiosk. I mean like, really like, my great-grandmother was a sort of faith healer, Sephardic, Kabbalistic faith healer. So I'm a little... I do believe in that, 100%. Yeah. She was reading like coffee grounds and having meetings about people's numerology and stuff. So I might have a little bias from my name in my blood.

Starting point is 02:18:22 But yeah, I think we're really good at picking up on it. And finally, after like a decade of studying chimps, I started picking up on these subtleties. Some of my colleagues, like Retchen-Ready, who studies these chimps, she, like, from day one, she was picking up on subtleties. It took me 10 years. But now I'm like, oh, I think these chimps are friends based on the way they're grooming each other, the way they're looking at each other. Miles looked at him like, I appreciate the grooming.

Starting point is 02:18:50 I understand what you're doing. Not only. am I not going to participate in this with you? Be very clear that I love Jackson. It's possible, yeah. I mean, but I even remember, I remember, you know, seven years before that happened. Like, this is another just, this is not, I mean, relationships, of course, can also change. For chimps, they might, these friendships or alliances or both typically lasts like around three years.

Starting point is 02:19:23 years, but sometimes they can last a decade. Sometimes they can last over a decade. I think those cases are like for sure friendships. But the other reason I'm hesitant to use the term friend to describe their relationships in chimps is I wonder if friendship doesn't actually fully capture the strength of the relationship. Sometimes it's like, you know, you're just friends. Sometimes like with friendship that we have today, it's like a lower, it's considered a lower category than other types of bonds, a bond with a romantic partner or something or family bonds. So that's why I'm leaving open the possibility that these are certainly sometimes social bonds that might be even stronger than what we typically call friendship, especially if these relationships, you know, are, might be better understood

Starting point is 02:20:14 as a mentor-mente relationship. Like sometimes we may not call that friendship, but it's this really important bond. So that's my other hesitance. It was like this whole journey of what are these a scientific study of friendship. I'm like, okay, maybe they do have them, but I'm like, wait, maybe that doesn't even begin. That doesn't fully capture the intensity and the emotional sort of power of some of these relationships. And I will say like for the relationships last a decade. I mean, there's the strongest bonds for chimps. Number one is mother and their kid. They stay with their mom for the first 10 years of their life through middle, early adolescence. They can maintain a relationship even though they spend less time with their entire life.

Starting point is 02:21:00 Where these even adult males will, they don't spend a lot of time together. When they are together, they'll groom each other. Can I just ask this last question? It'll be my last question about my friends and then go, shut up, Adam. How is that true for two reasons? I feel like Christine did Nadine dirty. Like, so listen, Christine has... You're watching Real Housewives Chimp Edition. I love it.

Starting point is 02:21:24 No, listen. No, Christine is the mom. And then she has the baby that they don't name in the beginning of the show, but later you find out it's Isabel. So cute and mischievous. A little too mischievous for my taste because it was a dangerous situation because of the men. I roll. But Nadine was Isabelle's... older sister, and the narrator, who I'm sure had to get past the scientist, said that Nadine was ignored because now there's a baby in the family and seven-year-old Nadine is being ignored.

Starting point is 02:22:00 And then my other question, and I know this has to be the last one, but I cannot believe that they send unprotected female adolescents out of their community on their own. Like, do you, Adam, they are shoved out, teenage girls, shoved onto the streets. Not okay with that. So explain to me how the motherhood bond must end because Nadine was ignored. I felt so bad for her. She's like in human fifth grade. Yeah, it's a great point.

Starting point is 02:22:39 I mean, the one thing is when there's a new baby, when there's a new infant, this is true. across, I think, mammals, that there's more attention on this new infant, less attention on the juvenile. And I think it's hard for Nadine. It probably was hard, but she's still maintained a close relationship. She's still traveling constantly with Christine. But it is a, it's a rough transition. She's not the sole focus of Christine's attention. And I think we see this, again, probably with humans. And with chimps, it's interesting because like humans, it's not, just where most mammals, soon after weaning, the kid becomes completely independent. Right.

Starting point is 02:23:22 In group living animals, including many primates, it's actually usually the females that stay. So they can have an opportunity. The relationship shifts. And actually surprisingly, we know less about the development of these relationships. This is something I'm working out with one of my PhD students in gorillas and also another PhD student with chimps. How do these relationships sort of shift during this? juvenile period after weaning before puberty. It's a really interesting dynamic into what is the

Starting point is 02:23:52 mother offspring relationship like. The thing with chimps is, first of all, it's important to note that yeah, at adolescence and chimps and bonobos, the females typically leave the group. They leave the area that they've known. They leave the chimps that they've known. But it's not, it's unlikely. It doesn't seem that they're kicked out, which is interesting. They seem to go on their own accord. So around adolescence, late adolescence, maybe around 11, 12, 13, female chimps become more independent of their mother. They spend more time in the entire group. And often they'll join the adult males and a few other adult females on these territorial patrols. Part of it is because they're socializing with the adults in the group.

Starting point is 02:24:39 And so the males will go off on a patrol. They're like, all right, let's go. But part of me wonders if they're almost using that opportunity. to survey the other groups and the other territories. And to me, I feel like there's a lot of agency in what's going on for these young females. They and they are brave. I mean, talk about vulnerability.

Starting point is 02:24:59 They're going out into the unknown. I couldn't believe it. They're alone walking out, and I think part of it might be because adolescence, you know, fear can become thrill. So I think for some of these females, it's like they're going out into the unknown and sometimes they stay. Sometimes they stay

Starting point is 02:25:19 but go into a different neighborhood, especially at Ngogo where there's a big, it's a huge chunk of forest. Sometimes they can go and that's an easier transition. Other times it's like, wow, and we don't know what goes on because it's hard to follow them. And it can be rough transitioning into a new group. So it's not that it's like an easy life, but it's like a very interesting

Starting point is 02:25:42 and impressive thing that happens. for these chimps, these female chimps. But if on occasion an adolescent female stays in her community and she stays in the neighborhood with her mom, then those are the strongest bonds in the world. They can just stay with their mom. Sometimes they stay in the group but don't have a relationship with her, but sometimes they stay and it's like this lifelong bond. That's what I would pick.

Starting point is 02:26:04 That's the family unit. Yeah. That's what I would pick. But then the other, and that's the strongest bond that exists for chimps. But then one of the other. strongest bonds is between adult males, these ones that can last five, 10, 12 years. And for me, those relationships, which they'll be with maternal brothers will form these strong bonds, but some of the most enduring are just between unrelated adult males. This is why, and these are

Starting point is 02:26:32 the males who are hunting together and sharing meat and going on border patrols. To me, I think friendship might not even fully capture the nature of these relationships. Like brotherhood. Yeah. It's like brotherhood or it's almost like the closest thing I've seen in the animal kingdom to romantic love. Wow. It's like a pair bond. Like we often think about pair bonds is occurring between a male and a female that are mating together and often raising offspring together. But if you think about what really is a pair bond, that's about the relationship. Like whether they're monogamous or not is another question. Whether they are raising an offspring together is another question. The pair bond is about. a really strong social relationship, cooperation, you know, distinct behaviors, preferences for each other. And if you sort of go check off the list of what makes a pair bond, which we often think about, you know, some birds and you see some primates like Gibbons and, you know, owl monkeys and T.T. Monkeys have this. If you start going through the list of what actually makes a pair bond,

Starting point is 02:27:34 I feel like some of these adult male pairs are actually pair bonds. It reminds me my dad and his best fishing buddy who've been friends for 50 years. You know what I mean? And they're not patrolling territory. I mean, the Gulf Coast. But they have a bond that it's like lasted divorces. And, you know, I mean, they just like, they say things to each other. Like they didn't want to live without each other.

Starting point is 02:28:02 Like they're, you know, but they're based there are a few words. But I can see it actually. It'd be so much better for human guys to have pair bonds with other men and develop more vulnerability and empathy and those kind of things. And it's just hard to do it around nonviolent things sometimes. Okay, I'm super aware of time. Adam, before we go to our lightning round, do you have any – I have like – I have gotten out of three out of my 30 questions, but that's okay. I know where you work. Barely scratched the surface for me too, but I think it's time for lightning.

Starting point is 02:28:43 Yeah. I will say that my daughter, who's getting her Ph.D. in emotion studies, was like, make sure you ask him about the otter gang wars in Singapore. And I was like, I don't think he studies the otter. She's like, but he's got to know about the otter wars because otter is her favorite animal. And she was so devastated to learn about these gang wars between otters and Singapore. But yeah, it's just genetic. She's got a genetic problem, like, from her mom. All right. One thing that you are deeply curious about right now. What are emotions and can we really scientifically study this across animals? Speaking of my love language. Okay. You get to design the weirdest and wildest thing,

Starting point is 02:29:30 just single item to put inside of a curiosity shop. What would it be? Oh, my God. Yeah. I would want to, uh, I would want to, uh, it would be a wearable device that would like a snare, a wiret snare that you would catch an animal with, but that has a safety device on it. So it turns into a bracelet and then it has like a GPS and Bluetooth and stuff. So you could just put it out and get it on wild animals and then it would track them and maybe. none basically monitor their behavior. I don't know if that, we could put that in the curiosity shop. We could. It's a primatology curiosity shop for sure. Yeah. Or I don't know if that's something. I can also be like a, you know, a chimp testicle and pickling in formaldehyde

Starting point is 02:30:25 that I collected in 2015. I would be for that. That was not on my bingo card for today. I have to ask, Aaron, one of the things I'm so curious about that I think could be done, lightning style is what's the most surprising way that chimps are similar to humans? I love that. I think it's in the, I mean, there's these big conceptual things like these relationships that seem to hint at things like love and war. But it's also, for me, the subtlest things, the gestures. One thing that really stuck with me is the way they will just.

Starting point is 02:31:08 just swipe at their nose. Sometimes it seems to be when they're a little more activated, they'll swipe at their nose. And this is something humans do all the time. It's like, you know, when someone's a little anxious, nervous, or really think about something, they swipe at the nose. We don't notice it, though. No one notice it. So I'm like, this is where I can become sort of the psychic.

Starting point is 02:31:27 I'm like, chimps are doing it. I see it across primates. Humans are doing it too. It's like the same thing. Or even just little gestural things, the way you rest your ankle on your, knee when you're sitting down, chimps do this. So much of what we think of as human is not because we're human. Yes, it's important. Part of being human, but it's because we're apes. Damn. Okay. And I'm going to leave with this question because I just have to, this is, I am so

Starting point is 02:31:58 anti-metaglasses, but would it be cool for primatologists that if you looked and you got the read on, let's say Gus, my guy Gus, and you're like, in your metaglass. And then when you were wearing them, you would be like, Caroline, Isabel, Sam, Gus, would that be helpful or not helpful? So helpful, especially for training new researchers. So helpful. And that's sort of what we are now, the experienced researchers. The one problem, I mean, this is an easy solution, but the one problem is we're staying always like 25, 30 feet away from the chimps to make sure just for our safety, their safety,

Starting point is 02:32:40 especially their safety, we can give them a common cold and they would die from that. So that's the biggest priority is like we're wearing face masks, we have hand sanitizer, we're keeping a distance. So we need binoculars. Even like when they're on the ground, sometimes you don't want to use binoculars. So if we could have like super magnification video recording glasses, that would be really nice. that sort of had this automatic recognition of individuals and behavior. Yes.

Starting point is 02:33:09 For the last few years, I was doing a lot more like camcorder footage, or I even just would wear like a lapel mic and dictate everything I'm seeing, because historically with animal behavior, it's like you're writing down in a notebook. I've been looking at my old, like, writing the rain notebooks from 2012, where I'm like writing down these little notes of what they're doing. But then I switched to an app on my phone where I'm like entering really quick. quickly what's happening. It automatically records the date and the time, GPS location, stuff like that. But yeah, that would be like the metaglass style thing would be so good,

Starting point is 02:33:44 but the problem is really just methodological. There's a bunch of vegetation. There's sometimes, you know, 150 feet up in a tree. They're running around, but that would be great. I'll work on it for you. Okay. If you see me in your class, just be cool. Yeah. You'd be cool, Renee. That's going to be the hard part. No way. I can be cool. I don't know. I'm going to ask myself. I expect you in the front row, for sure. No doubt. That's where I always say. I just have to say, I'm so glad you didn't give up on your guerrilla dream, Aaron. Same. Yeah. I think the work you're doing is so fascinating. And I think it's so much easier to see the things that we take for granted that are problematic in human interactions. I think you're holding up a mirror and allowing us to look at that and say, wait a minute, that doesn't have to happen. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:34:34 That's beautiful, Adam. Yeah. Dream come true. Really just really important and amazing. And I love it so much. I'm still not a fan. I'm still not some of my fan.

Starting point is 02:34:51 I just, I think they are us and we are them. And I think that's a little scary. But love what you do. Yeah, the parallels are hard. But yeah, thank you so much. It's great discussing this with you. So fun. Thank you for joining us, Aaron. Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people?

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Starting point is 02:36:40 Yes, I don't think he softened me on the Western group at all, just to be honest with you. Like, I am, but maybe I am the problem. Maybe, like, maybe I am promoting the us and themness of it. But I didn't get to know them. I mean, I just didn't have a soft spot. Well, there's a tough killing in the first episode. And I just never got past it.

Starting point is 02:37:04 I don't think I would get over that either. It's striking to me how strong your parisocial relationships are with these chimps. Me? Yours. Yeah, I mean, his too. But yours just from watching the doc. Well, you know, documentaries are, you know, nature documentaries especially. I mean, had we not been doing this podcast, I would never have watched one because I'm,

Starting point is 02:37:23 I find that kind of stuff really tough to see and really tough to watch. And the vulnerability of animals, I think, is really hard. but I kept saying, I can't watch it, I'm going to watch it, I can't watch it, I'm going to watch it for the prep. But then I just got bought in. And there were some very serious, it's really hard when you see them and their little ears and their eyes. And they look like us. And so I just knew them. And they have such fun personalities and not all of them. But I don't know. I left, I would be so bad at this job. Could you imagine anyone? worse at this job than me. I could. Yes, I could.

Starting point is 02:38:05 No. Because I'm just such about the story and the emotional narrative. And he seems like it's so funny, he goes right to the edge of that and then science pulls him back. Did you notice that? Consistently. Yeah. Every time he got attached, he would kind of pull back and say, well, that's an interesting

Starting point is 02:38:26 hypothesis. Right. I'm like, no, I'm not. hypothesizing, this is exactly what happened between these two chimps. I can tell you right now that Miles looked at the sky and said, try again. I'm not, you know, like, so I think I was really grateful, too, about the honesty of the struggle, that you can start dreaming of doing that kind of research, but that kind of research is tough and isolating and scary. Yeah, it, you know, it captured for me what is a challenge for a lot of people of pursuing what they think is a

Starting point is 02:39:00 calling career-wise. You have this image, especially if you fall for it when you're young. And it seems like it's going to be nirvana. And then you get there and it's a job. And you have all these, to your point, isolating tasks, menial tasks, the boredom just to observe and try to figure out what's going on. And I think a lot of people experience a honeymoon hangover effect there where I feel like, oh no, this is my life now? Yeah. Yeah, because I don't think anyone dreams about the preparation, the part of the career that makes it that thing, like, you know, the hundreds of hours of, you know, mosquito bites and every chimp looks the same and you can't see them because they're in the canopy. And, you know, I just, I don't think that's what we, and certainly if you grow up on media that's promoting some career, that's not what they're showing in the doctor. They probably have a gazillion hours and we see four 40 minutes series, you know.

Starting point is 02:40:07 I think it's so easy to, this is true for any job. It's so easy to fall in love with the purpose of it and have no idea whether the process is a good fit for you or not, which is why it's, it boggles my mind that people don't shadow jobs before they take them. Like that people commit to careers without actually knowing what they're going to be doing day in and day out. I think in our world, I'm so curious about how you do this. When we have people who are thinking about doing a PhD, my first advice to them is go read four articles in our academic journals. And if you're still awake on number four, you have found your calling. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:40:45 No. I think it's three things. I think it's purpose versus process versus romanticized understanding. Yeah. So, you know, a lot of people want to be, it was like if you track some of the research around how many people got interested in medicine because of Gray's anatomy. That's such a good example. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. And so I think just the real behind the scenes, like, I don't think of a second year medical student is thinking, this is exactly, you know,

Starting point is 02:41:20 like that moment when Meredith Gray fell in love with McDreamy, you know, it's, they're thinking I have 7,000 flashcards and I remember three of them. And I think I have all three of those diseases. Oh, no. Oh, God, for sure. Yeah. Having been married from someone through medical school and residency. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:41:40 Yeah, I just think it was an interesting conversation on every level, not just the chimps, but his own experience as a researcher and a scientist. And yeah, I think it was beautiful. Me too. You know, one thing I was left thinking about it. I just, I have to ask you about this because I don't know what to make of it. I think one of the things I'm grappling with right now is, as for as long as I can remember, I've thought about what makes us uniquely human is language, our ability to communicate

Starting point is 02:42:10 with sophisticated words, not just gestures, to be able to tell stories. And yet, Aaron was talking about all the planning and coordination and even bonding and connection, even thinking, right, without words. How do they do that? Is language as important as I thought it was? Where are you on that? I think you'll help me find a more graceful way to say this. I think if language is in the picture, it's critically important.

Starting point is 02:42:46 If language doesn't need to be in the picture for communication, but if language is a variable, then it becomes. I think about Ludwig Wittgenstein, the limits of my language are the limits of my world. And so I think because in a human species we do, we are kind of socially built around language. I think it's excruciatingly important. But can things exist without it? Yes. But I think if it's a variable, then you really need like emotional granularity, a strong vocabulary. I think those things become, especially because our research, we started it maybe 15 years ago asking folks, please make a list of every emotion that you can recognize when you're feeling it. And the

Starting point is 02:43:36 mean number was three, happy, sad, and pissed off. And so, you know, so imagine if you are shoving every experience you have as a human being into one of those three buckets. So where is awe, where is wonder, where's anguish, where's despair, where's joy, where, you know, like, you're just, it's so crude, the buckets are so crude that it literally does change your lived experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's really well put. You know, it, it reminds me of the, the research by Paula Niedenthal and colleagues on historical migration patterns and emotional expressiveness and body language and tone. Do you know this work? No, I don't.

Starting point is 02:44:23 Oh, I found this so interesting. And you just connected dots for me on this. So basically, they look around the world and they want to know why are some cultures more emotionally expressive than others. And I think the basic, like, if you look at their map of emotional expressiveness, like, why are the Americas, like, doing so much with their arms and their faces and with their tones? And you go to Japan and it's much. more reserved. Right. And in a couple of their studies, they show that basically how many different languages came together to form the country is a clear predictor of how emotionally expressive their region is. In Japan, everyone spoke the same language, and so they didn't need the gestures

Starting point is 02:45:09 and the tones and the body language. And in the Americas, okay, even Spanish versus Portuguese, We've got to do more to try to convey what we're expressing. And the dot you just connected for me was this is exactly what chimps are doing. They don't have the words. They don't have the extensive, they don't have the nuance of spoken language. Right, right, right. And so they've gotten really good at the subtle gestures and the tones that substitute. Yeah, and you can see like in the.

Starting point is 02:45:46 the documentary, I was so interested to see some of those gestures seemed just kind of from birth with the babies, but some of them you could see were being taught. You know, some of the calls, some of the gestures were being taught. And so, yeah, I think it's so interesting to me. I could have to watch. Yeah, I think, especially now, knowing Erin, I think you would love to watch it. Yeah. I'm like you. I don't want to see some of those events. I will tell you that. Animals being hurt. It's, it's their very, they don't show it.

Starting point is 02:46:24 Okay, good. You know, no, no, there's nothing graphic about it at all. I would have never made it. No. Yeah. This was a good one. I loved it. Thank you for, thank you for have my chimpanzee dream come true here. It was long overdue. And we didn't even talk about the bridge that he built between us because he did his dog at Michigan, and he teaches at UT Austin. Huck them. Go blue. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Bray Brown,

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The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam Grant - What Chimpanzees Reveal About How We Connect and Divide

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