The Current - Alberta’s pro-Canada forces fight back against separatism

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

As calls for Alberta to separate from Canada get louder, pro-Canada forces are pushing back. Former Alberta Deputy Premier Thomas Lukaszuk has launched a referendum campaign against separatism – asking Albertans: “Do you agree Alberta should remain in Canada?” We speak with him about why Alberta should stay part of Canada. Then, political scientist Barry Cooper explains why he thinks Alberta would be better off going it alone.

Welcome to the Dudes Club, a brotherhood supporting men's health and wellness. Established in the Vancouver downtown Eastside in 2010, the Dudes Club is a community-based organization that focuses on indigenous men's health, many of whom are struggling with intergenerational trauma, addiction, poverty, homelessness, and chronic diseases. The aim is to reduce isolation and loneliness and for the men to regain a sense of pride and purpose in their lives. As a global health care company, Novo Nordisk is dedicated to driving change for a healthy world. It's what we've been doing since 1923. It also takes the strength and determination of the communities around us, whether it's through disease

awareness, fighting stigmas and loneliness, education, or empowering people to become more active. Novo Nordisk is supporting local changemakers because it takes more than medicine to live a healthy life. Leave your armor at the door. Watch this paid content on CBC Gem. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. The Calgary Stampede is on. A couple of hundred people are out in cowboy hats and boots

in the southeast part of the city. There's a lot of denim and bolo ties. They're all here for a pancake breakfast, a stampede tradition. But some are also willing to talk politics, seeing that the province is one step closer to a potential referendum where they may have to decide should we stay or should we go. Oh I agree Alberta should remain in Canada. Definitely yes.

Quebec tried to separate also and it didn't work out. It was close but it didn't work out so I'm Canadian. The idea of it is a bit fringe in my perspective. I don't think that it's a popular view. I think it's a group of people who are loud. Not everyone at the breakfast feels this way, though. I love the idea of it, though. I don't want it to separate from Canada, but I like the fact that it might drive change, because we seem to be getting a raw deal lately. But I mean, I'm not fully for it. I don't actually want it, but I hope it does drive some change. This drives some change. The Alberta separatist movement has been louder since the federal election in April, and there's been a big push to hold a provincial referendum asking Albertans if they want to leave Canada. But now there's a counter movement.

A group called Forever Canadian is putting forward a different referendum question. Do you agree that Alberta should remain in Canada? If enough signatures are collected, there will be a full provincial vote on the question. We'll hear from an Alberta separatist in a moment, but first I'm joined by Thomas Lukaszek, who is from Forever Canadian. He's also the former Deputy Premier of Alberta in the Progressive Conservative Party and a former long-time cabinet member. He's in Calgary. Good morning. Good morning.

Thank you for having me. So why do you believe Alberta should remain in Canada? Well, because it isn't even a question. Alberta is part of Canada. Alberta in 1905 was created out of Canada. And Canadians living in Alberta, by vast majority, don't want to even hear about the concept of separating for numerous reasons. A, we're proud Canadians. We also understand what economic damage occurs when jurisdictions entertain the idea of separation.

We saw it in Quebec. And what does it mean to you to be Canadian? I actually immigrated to Canada with my parents at the age of 12. And, you know, I'm really sincere when I say that there really isn't a day in my life that I am not grateful for living in Canada, for being Canadian. My family never moved to Alberta. We moved to Canada. Now, this gets into the weeds a little bit, but it's important because you've gained the system a bit here with your referendum proposal. The separatists were going to submit a proposal

for the referendum. The question was going to be, do you agree that the province of Alberta shall become an independent country and cease to be a province of Canada? But you beat them to it. Why did you do that? Well, I didn't game the system. They are playing checkers and I play chess. The rules are very clear and the rules for citizen initiated petitions is that whoever files first, that petition will be

reviewed first. Since I filed my petition first, Elections Alberta reviewed the petition. I met all the legislative and constitutional requirements. Hence, that is the petition that will be going forward. And to be clear, Elections Alberta has confirmed that dueling referendums aren't allowed. That is correct. And that makes perfect sense. You know, one cannot be asking, do you want to stay in Canada? The other one at the same time can't be asking, do you want to leave Canada? Because it's really the same question. And it would be very confusing for Canadians living in Alberta. So the rules indicate that the first petition that is filed and meets all the legislative standards is the petition that will be considered. And it so appears that ours was first.

Okay. Now, last Friday, new rules came in around referendums in the province. What are those rules? Premier Danielle Smith has decided to make the rules a little bit easier for the separatists because at that point in time they were the only ones lobbying her to make those rules easier. The easier rules basically mean that you need fewer signatures, about half the signatures, than under the old rules. And the time for collecting signatures on a petition has been extended from 90 to 120

days. And the financial rules for fundraising for this campaign have been relaxed, coincidentally proclaimed by Danielle Smith on the American Independence Day. But you're being told the old rules apply to you, right? Well, we haven't been explicitly told that yet. And I imagine that at this point in time, the chief electoral officer is actually considering whether the new rules should apply evenly to those who are separatists and those who want to protect our country or not. So we are awaiting the chief electoral

commissioner's decision on this particular point. However, when I filed my petition, the older rules were still in effect because I'm confident that the vast majority of Albertans will sign the petition. So I did not need to wait for relaxation of the rules. Okay, the two questions from your group and Alberta Prosperity Project for the separatists are different, but the outcome could be the same. It's not certain there will be a referendum, but if there is, are you worried at all about this backfiring and Albertans voting no to your question? Not at all. You know, the day we filed the application for the petition,

we signed up over 300 volunteers. There is an overwhelming desire to sign this petition. Do you worry that this could motivate the other side of the campaign even harder? Well, and it may, and that's just fine. That's what campaigns do. But the fact is that they have very little room for growth. I cannot overstate the fact that Albertans not only don't want this discussion, but Albertans fear of what the repercussions of

this discussion may be as economic damage. And at a time when our prime minister and all premiers are talking about eliminating inter-provincial barriers, here we have a group that actually wants to put up the ultimate barrier by putting borders around the province of Alberta. So it's counterintuitive and there is a small group of people to which they appeal and that's fine. Now, having said that, by no means am I an advocate of status quo. Can the situation and the relationship between Alberta and other provinces in Ottawa improve? They always can. But there are mechanisms for that. We have tables at which we negotiate, but those negotiations, those discussions within Canada should never happen with one province holding a proverbial gun to the rest of Canada's

heads saying that unless I get everything I want, I'm separating. And also, I think all of your listeners will agree that we live in very turbulent times right now from a geopolitical perspective. So at a time when our best friends and allies are turning out to be adversaries, shall we say, at a time when we need to strike new military and economic alliances, last thing we need is to be internally divided in Canada. Thomas Lukaszek, thanks very much for speaking with us this morning. Thank you for having me.

Thomas Lukaszek is the founder of the pro-Canadian campaign Forever Canadian. Welcome to the Dudes Club, a brotherhood supporting men's health and wellness. Established in the Vancouver downtown Eastside in 2010, the Dudes Club is a community-based organization that focuses on indigenous men's health, many of whom are struggling with intergenerational trauma, addiction, poverty, homelessness, and chronic diseases. The aim is to reduce isolation and loneliness,

and for the men to regain a sense of pride and purpose in their lives. As a global healthcare company, Novo Nordisk is dedicated to driving change for a healthy world. It's what we've been doing since 1923. It also takes the strength and determination of the communities around us,

whether it's through disease awareness, fighting stigmas and loneliness, education, or empowering people to become more active, Novo Nordisk is supporting local changemakers because it takes more than medicine to live a healthy life. Leave your armor at the door. Watch this paid content on CBC Gem. Viking. Committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe

on a Viking longship with thoughtful service and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. Learn more at Viking.com. Mary Kupfer is a political science professor at the University of Calgary. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. We'll get to the referendum in a minute, but why do you believe Alberta should separate? I wouldn't put it quite that starkly. What I would say is that the possibility of separation will soon be, may become the only alternative for Albertans. And the reason for that is that so far as I can see, there is no interest in Laurentian Canada in changing the terms of confederation as they exist at the moment,

so that Canada could become a genuine federation. It hasn't been from the start, and it certainly isn't now. That means that then independence is the only sensible alternative if Canadians won't negotiate. And I see no reason why they will. That's certainly not in their interest too. So you're at a point where the best alternative to your mind is to separate. How would it work? I mean, can you create a picture for us about the currency, defense, economic fallout? How do you see this actually functioning? I've talked a bit about this in the last few years, and one of the things that Albertans

find shocking is that we will have to depend on the Americans for part of this. Canada will not negotiate with Alberta. I'm absolutely convinced of that. It's a structural problem. They never have. I don't anticipate the premier of Quebec saying, yeah, we want to get rid of supply management. That isn't going to happen. But that is also a symptom. So then that means if Alberta is to gain its independence, it will have to rely on the Americans informing Canada that the Americans support Albertan independence. Now, of course, that's completely treasonous.

And when you point that out to Albertans, they're somewhat shocked. They think that, you know, we can decide whatever we want to do. That's not the way politics in the real world works. Military power is extremely important. Not that Canada has much of an army to impose its will on Alberta, but we would have to depend on American military assistance in order to ensure that Canada doesn't try anything like, I don't know what, sending the Canada doesn't try anything like, I don't know what, sending the Patricia's down from the Edmonton garrison to Calgary or something. It gets kind of crazy.

The way you can avoid that is to ensure that the Americans tell Canada to leave us alone. And they will. The Canadians will. Danielle Pletka I mean, can you, if Alberta does become more aligned with the US, which is, I guess, a possibility, could you see this, Alberta becoming a new state? I think, yeah, of course, Saskatchewan as well. And I mean, all this talk with Trump and Canada as a 51st state, you know, was a joke. Well, yes and no. Well, it was not treated as a joke, particularly in Ontario.

It was certainly treated as a joke here. I mean, why would the Americans want to take on Quebec? It makes absolutely no sense. The only parts of the country that would be attractive, so far as I can see, are Saskatchewan and Alberta. Whether or not Albertans can persuade the Americans to be a little more aggressive with respect to Canada, either in changing the Constitution so that our position in the country is respected or in terms of independence, that's what remains to be seen, not the stuff about local referenda here. That's really secondary.

Right. I wanted to ask you about your own personal feelings. I mean, do you have any pride around being Canadian or do you feel any sadness about coming to, you know, this conclusion you've come to about this being the only sensible alternative? Yeah, there have been, I don't know how many, but many lost opportunities for Laurentian Canada to acknowledge the importance of the Prairie West. And they have been foregone. It just hasn't happened. We have been treated as a ground colony from Sir John A's day, right up until the last

government. We'll see what Mr. Carney does. But that's where the problem lies. And I mean, there are good reasons for it, historical reasons and sort of the self-understanding of Ontario and Quebec about how important they are, and they are important obviously to the country, but they're not exclusively important.

And what I found is that the self-understanding in Laurentian Canada makes it extremely difficult for them to acknowledge any other way of looking at the country. So it's a very self-reinforcing story about Canada as being the most successful, bilingual, bicultural, multicultural, whatever you want to call it,

country in the history of the universe. Except that it isn't. That's what they think Canada is like in Laurentian Canada. But that's not what happens here. So I want to talk about the referendum and ask you what you make of Thomas Lukaszewski's efforts to thwart the separatist's attempt to get a referendum on leaving. I'd say two things about that. The statement that he made that they got their foot in the door first and therefore you can only have one referendum at a time.

I'm not sure whether that's correct. I think that will be decided by the courts. I think that will be decided by the courts. The second thing, which is probably more important, is Lukácsí profile in this province for, well since the first decade of the 21st century really, has not been that of a particularly serious political leader. The way he handled this particular referendum, which he said that under the rules that his version is going to have to operate, they have to collect more signatures at less time than the other guys. Well, that's just, you know, I don't know what to make of that. I mean, that's just incompetence. You know, he knew what the rules were. And

he's by putting all of his eggs on the one basket, which is I think is legally controversial, that you can only have one of these things at a time, one of these referendums at a time. You know, we'll see how that works out. But if you just dealt with the Alberta prosperity version, the way of dealing with that is to say vote against it. It's real simple. Right. And as you say, it's early days in terms of the decision that will be made there. And also, we'll see what happens in the referendum, but polls do suggest that he is on the side

of the majority of Albertans who want to stay part of Canada. Do you understand why the majority want to stay? Yeah, I mean, I would like to stay in Canada too, but that's not really the issue. It's under what conditions. That's the first thing. The second is we've never had one of these referendum campaigns before, so that the numbers will probably change. You can say 75% according to a recent poll that was, and then you have to look at the methodology of the poll and the questions and so on. Seventy-five percent of Albertans want to stay in Canada.

Okay, that's today. Let's say it's true. What happens when you have a campaign that, let us say, educates Albertans or propagandizes them, you know, whatever side you want and whatever term you want to use, depending on what side you're on, that can change. And when Lukács said that there's no room for growth on the independent side, I don't know, you know, what he could possibly be thinking of. There's nothing but room for growth.

And it's mainly because most Albertans accept the Laurentian view of what the country's like. And it's a completely parochial view that is accurate enough, I suppose, in Ontario and Quebec, but doesn't apply to the Prairie West. That's where the change will come. You may say this is too late,

but what would have to change for you to change your mind to want Alberta to remain part of Canada? Some serious negotiations with Canada on changing the Constitution, you know, changing Canada into a federation and not this kind of imperial extraction organization that it is at present. And that really does mean opening the constitution. And of course, all of the Laurentian professors of law and political science will say,

we can't open the constitution. Well, the reason why we have the 1982 constitution, so far as I can see, is that it is an expression of a legal way of dealing with the incredible secularization of Quebec after World War II. That was a real change. Pierre Trudeau's wizardry made it very difficult to change it now. Now the crisis is not about secularization of a very pious part of the country.

It's about the changes in the economic structure of the country. Alberta and Saskatchewan are now a lot more wealthy than they were in 1982, particularly compared to the rest of the country. That also requires a constitutional expression, or as I said, there'll be extra constitutional negotiations regarding independence that involves all of these external things like the Americans. And that's a harder road to hoe, but I think that's where we're headed. Mary, thank you very much for speaking with us today. I appreciate it. You're welcome.

Mary Cooper is a political science professor at the University of Calgary. You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.