The Current - Are DEI rollbacks coming to Canada?

Episode Date: June 5, 2025

<p>Diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives have been under fire in the U.S. since Trump came back to the White House — and on this side of the border, some are worried about similar rollbacks. Equity and diversity experts discuss how company values are being “pressure tested,” and what DEI initiatives got wrong.</p>

Hi, I'm Gavin Crawford, the host of Because News, Canada's funniest news quiz. Every week we make jokes out of the headlines with help from a panel of brilliant comedians like Alice Moran. Hi there, I'm a sweet little Alberta dirtbag with very gentle takes. They call me light, sweet, and crude. Half your job is making jokes, but the other half is scoring points. What subjects do you net the most points in? Sports, but also space, because I went to space camp so much as a kid, not to brag.

That's the exact amount of knowledge you need for this show. Stay vaguely informed while in good company. With me. Listen to Because News, available wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is the current podcast. My administration has taken action to abolish all discriminatory diversity, equity, and This is the current podcast. For months, diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives have been under fire in the United

States. Corporations like Walmart, McDonald's and Amazon have all scaled back various DEI initiatives, moves that have been celebrated by the Trump administration. Here in Canada, there are growing concerns that similar rollbacks are on the horizon or already happening. Shopify got rid of its DEI initiatives. The University of Alberta changed its DEI policy to access community and belonging. Michael Bach is the founder of the Canadian Center

for Diversity and Inclusion and Pride at Work Canada, also the author of Birds of All Feathers, Doing Diversity and Inclusion Right. Michael, good morning. Good morning. As you understand it, what was the original intent of these DEI programs? The original intent was to make sure

that we were able to engage people in workplaces to their fullest potential, recognizing that there is bias, discrimination, and privilege that gets in the way for some people. The attention was always good. It's just been potentially received differently by some. Pete So, what went wrong with DEI then? Jared How long do we have? I think there's a couple things that primarily went wrong. First of all, I think there's a lack of understanding

about what the intention was. And some people not accepting that things like privilege exist and believing that a focus on DEI is a lack of focus on merit. That was never actually the case. It was actually, I think arguably the antithesis of that, that it is more of a focus on merit. I think the other thing frankly, and I get in trouble for saying this,

I think the part of the problem is that we've swung too far to the social justice imperative, where some people believe that this is about righting the wrongs of history. And unfortunately, that is not terribly well received by Bay Street or corporate Canada. And it is the intention, and I think back to George Floyd's death in 2020, we saw a huge number of companies jump on the bandwagon, but they did it for the wrong reason. They didn't do it because it was good for their business. They did it because they felt social pressure. And five years on, there is little conversation happening about that moment.

I'm gonna come back to that in a moment. Are you seeing a pullback from DEI initiatives? We just heard the kind of montage of what's going on in the United States. Are you seeing a pullback from DEI initiatives here in Canada? Yes and no. There are a small number of organizations

that have done the pullback. You talk about Shopify and the University of Alberta. But I think in the University of Alberta's case, they're actually doing what most companies are doing, which is just a bit of a rebranding exercise. Taking those words, diversity, inclusion, and equity out of the equation. Exactly, we're gonna talk about belonging,

we're gonna talk about access, but it's the same thing. And that is what I'm seeing in the vast majority of organizations. And then there's a small percentage that honestly are just doubling down. And whether they're doing that because they really get it and it is the right thing to do for their business or it's just good marketing has yet to be seen and I'm thinking about Costco as an example.

The right thing to do for their business is interesting. You and I, we should say, you and I have spoken about this a number of times over the years. And at the time we first started having these conversations about DEI, big corporations were very insistent in saying, this is not just the right thing to do, but it is the right thing to do for business. That we are in the business of making money and

this is going to mean we are going to be, these businesses more successful because we're reaching out to broader communities, we're making them feel welcome, we're making them feel welcome within our workforce as well. Did you believe that intention? Patrick Potyondy Absolutely. I wholeheartedly believe that intention. I think that the vast majority of employers that are really committed to this work and emphasize really committed, they understand the business case.

They understand what the data tells them of how a focus on DEI is going to positively impact their top and bottom line. And that's the, I think, what should be the priority, because they're not in the business of just being good companies. If you look at some of the, like TD Bank as an example, which is a huge commitment to DEI,

they're not doing it because they're the nicest people in the world, they're doing it because they make a lot of money from it. They recognize that the face of the customer and the face of the employee is dramatically different than it was 50 or 100 years ago, and they needed to adapt. And it's organizations that don't understand

their business case that are the ones that are stepping back and pausing. You talked about the performative element of this earlier and the fact that in the wake of the murder of Church Floyd, but also other incidents that created social pressure, companies needed to be seen to be doing the right thing. And there would be an online course that you would attend. There would be somebody who would show up as an educator at work and you went to a course for a week perhaps, and then you were never, they were

never seen again. What did, what did that do to that idea that this was good business? How did, how did that interrupt or complicate the idea that these companies are doing it for the right reasons? Suddenly they needed to be shown to be going for the right reasons.

I think it, uh, it set expectations and but these companies were doing it for the right reasons. Suddenly they needed to be shown to be doing it for the right reasons. I think it set expectations and those expectations of change were not necessarily met. I think we have seen a fair amount of performative activities. I mean, we're in Pride month. The number of Pride events that will be hosted by companies across Canada is a staggering number. And while I love a good pride celebration, that's not changing lives. That's not really having the lasting impact of, for example,

seeing the diversification of leadership groups. And all of the studies tell us that a diverse leadership leads to better performance outcomes for an organization, but we're still not seeing our C-suite leadership teams changing. So the expectations were set that there was going to be change, and we just haven't gotten there. What do you think is at the heart of the pushback? And part of this is about what's happening in the United States, but within those workforces, for example, there could have been resentment that people felt that they had to go to these courses and be told something that maybe they

didn't want to hear. What do you think is at the heart of the pushback to this? Well, I think there was a whole lot of people who felt resentful. And I think the heart of the pushback to this? Well, I think there was a whole lot of people who felt resentful. And I think the heart of the pushback is how that message was delivered. I think there have been people in my field who have delivered programs that have said, for example, that white men are the problem. I totally, wholeheartedly disagree with that statement, but it is a

statement that has been made. You know, the reality in Canada is we have a long history of discrimination, whether you want to admit it or to, um, those, those, that history and said, okay, you know, we need to fix this history. Well, unfortunately you can't fix history. Trust me, the eighties and I would have a conversation. Um, it, you know, history is what it is. The point now is that we need to move forward. I think there are people who resent it.

I think there are people who have suggested that this somehow is a plot to erase white people and, you know, we're promoting people who don't have the skills to do jobs. None of that is actually true, but it also has become a political dog whistle that gets a certain population riled up, and so the politicians go with it. So just finally, what needs to happen to make the initiatives, whatever you call them, if you don't want to use that phrase DEI, but to make the initiatives that you've dedicated your life to this work, what has to happen to make them successful and why does that matter right now? Well, first of all, I don't care what we call it.

It doesn't matter whether it's called DEI or chocolate pudding. None of that matters. What matters is the work. I would say that what needs to happen is we need to move beyond the performative. Sure, pride celebration, great, fantastic, do it, not changing lives. We need to focus on educating people why this is important and what their role is in creating an inclusive space. And ultimately, this comes down to dignity and respect. And we need to make sure that every single person knows their role in creating an inclusive environment. And then we need to really focus on what's getting

in the way of changing the landscape of our organizations. I'll give you a statistic. Women graduated with more than 50% of undergraduate degrees in Canada in the 1979-1980 school year, and it has not dropped below 50% since then. So why is it that when we look across the biggest companies in Canada, overwhelmingly they're led by men.

We need to focus on that change, on making sure that people can succeed. And I'm talking about all people. This isn't about someone losing for someone else to gain, but we need to move beyond the performative to concrete actions. Michael, it's good to speak with you again. Thank you very much. Always a pleasure, Matt.

Michael Bach is the founder of the Canadian Center for Diversity and Inclusion and Pride at Work Canada and the author of Birds of All Feathers, Doing Diversity and Inclusion Right. Imagine you're 17 years old, you're minding your business, you're at your fast food job cleaning out the walk-in freezer, and all of a sudden your older co-worker comes in and reveals to you that he doesn't love one of his sons. This actually happened to writer Ocean Vuong and he told me all about it on my new podcast,

Bookends. I'm Mattea Roach and every week I talk to some of today's greatest writing talents and rising stars and I also get some pretty good stories along the way. You can check out Bookends with Mateja Roche wherever you get your podcasts. Susanna Elaine is the Senior Manager of Inclusion, Diversity, Equity and Accessibility at the law firm Lenzner Slat. Susanna, good morning to you. Good morning to you. Good morning to you, Matt.

How concerned are you about the potential of a rollback of DEI initiatives in Canada? We've been talking about and hearing about what's happening in the States. What about in this country? I would say maybe I'm an optimistic person. There's concern that there might be rollback for sure and the impact that that's gonna have,

but particularly in the legal space, that's not what I'm seeing a preponderance of. I'm seeing my colleagues who are in this space at different law firms continuing to do the work. And yeah, like I said, maybe I'm naively optimistic. A story that got a lot of attention was the story of a major law firm in this country, McCarthy Tetro, who stepped back. The accusation was they were stepping back from DEI. They had ended, or at least paused, a program for black and indigenous lawyers. The chief inclusion officer at that firm had stepped down.

The CEO of McCarthy-Tetro said to the Globe and Mail that any suggestion that the firm was not committed to inclusion, in his words, couldn't be further from the truth. What impact do you see? And Pete, the reason that people talked about this was because the concern is that institutions, large firms that might have business in the United States

would feel pressure to step away from DEI. Do you see that pressure? I mean, I can't speak to the McCarthy situation specifically because I'm not there, but I do. Yeah, but broadly, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Broadly, I don't see that pressure. I say that though, working at a firm with the Toronto office, I don't know if that's the experience of my colleagues at other firms. What I do see is those roles not being rolled back at those firms.

Everyone has jobs, everyone has work to do. And we're continuing to have those conversations. Just in the last three months, I've had conversations with the Black Law Students Association here in Toronto, with the Ontario Bar Association around allyship, with young women lawyers. Those groups are still existing and doing that work. And so I think that those conversations are going to continue and we're going to continue to find ways to make sure that this profession at least is as inclusive as possible. One of the criticisms that's been raised, and Michael talked a little bit about this,

is that as important as that work may be, some of it was seen to be performative. What do you make of that criticism? That some of this has just been for show. You know, I think that many of the folks that belong to equity deserving groups are going to feel understandably that a lot of this work is too little too late. And I am not going to invalidate or take away from those feelings. When it comes to whether or not something is performative, I think every organization has to look at what's in its DNA

that they can tell the truth about. What are the values in terms of what we have been doing right? And where are the gaps that we need to close? And are we doing that? I think each organization has to take stock of that for themselves. But I don't take issue with people having that sentiment that something is performative. I'm more curious as what's that organization that's being accused of that doing and how

are they getting the work done? What successes have you seen at your firm with this initiative? Is retention of diverse staff improving? Have concerns around inclusivity and corporate culture declined in the wake of DEI initiatives? I mean, to speak at our firm, I will be fair. This is a new role for our firm that I started in September, so I'd love to tell you that I have a bunch of stats

to offer you. What I can say that's really encouraging is to see that in our idea, that's the acronym that we use, in our idea strategy and plan, we have a focus on leadership, people and relationships. And to see that throughout the business team and throughout the lawyers at the firm being encouraged to see that there's openness to having education around different issues, to see that again with my other DEI colleagues in the legal space where we meet regularly and talk about the work that's being done at our firm. Those are all things that are encouraging for me, and I hope that the future just continues to look like some of the things we hope to achieve in terms of our law firms looking

like our law school graduating classes and All of those sorts of things, but I don't think it's just about numbers I really think it's about are we building places where people want to want to stay where they feel like they can belong and they Feel genuinely included. I was gonna say, how are you? How will you measure success? Oh I think a few ways For me I don't a few ways. For me, I don't subscribe to the idea of quotas, but I do think that representation is something that we need to be looking to. So I think absolutely Michael was talking about this a bit and in huge respect for him and his work that we are going to have to see our C-suite and our

leadership change. But just last week, I was moderating a panel for the Young Women Lawyers Ontario and they were talking about how many more women are managing partners now at law firms than when the women that were on that panel were in law school who are judges and now senior counsel. So I think continuing to see those changes, continuing to see other equity deserving groups represented at the partnership and C-suite levels of firms, I think also in terms of the culture of the firm. What do people actually feel and experience when they're working at a law firm? How are things better and safer for them? And I think that is data that you, you know, as a firm have to collect and have to continue to monitor

throughout your idea strategy and initiation, I'm sorry, idea strategy rollout of your initiatives. So that's how I'd measure success. Two, three, four, five years from now, what's the data telling us? What are people telling us? And what do our firms look like? Just in the last couple of minutes that we have, what do you think this moment means? How do you see this moment in some ways? Because there is pressure coming from,

and it's not just in the United States, but we see companies that do have ties to the US trying to figure out how they operate in this moment and whether this moment is the same as when they created those DEI programs in the past. People have said that in some ways this is a test of values in some ways. How do you see this moment? Oh, absolutely. I think our values are being pressure tested right now.

I think we are being asked as organizations, as companies, as institutions, who are we? What do we really stand for? And this moment is not at all like four or five years ago. And it shouldn't be. We're evolving, I think, to face and meet these times right now. And I think when your values are pressure tested, you really got to dig deep to what's at the core of those. I ask all the time when people say, Susanna, let's do this initiative, I say, why?

Why are we doing this work? I don't believe in make work projects. And I think if we answer that, why genuinely, and it's about creating those inclusive environments that will get there. And, you know, unfortunately, for some folks, and I understand not being happy about this, I think it's slow work. It took a long time for a lot of these systems to be in place and it's going to take a long time for us to make them so that there are better places for everyone. And if we don't get it right, just very briefly, what's at stake?

I think the same thing that's being pressure tested, who we are is at stake. You know, as a black woman in this profession, I want to continue to be proud to be a lawyer and say, come work where I work, do this work to students, you belong here. And I think that's at stake if we don't get this right. It's good to speak with you.

I'm optimistic that we will. We'll leave on that optimism. Susanna, it's good to speak with you. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening.

I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.