The Current - Are swimmable cities possible in Canada?

Episode Date: July 24, 2026

Natural bodies of water are embedded in many Canadian cities, but are we taking full advantage of them? We speak with Neil Egsgard, President of the Alberta Surfing Association, about a proposed redevelopment at Calgary's Bow River, and Larissa Holman, Director of Science and Policy with Ottawa Riverkeepers, about the importance of swimmable waters in our cities.  And Ian Young, an associate professor at Toronto Metropolitan University, about what municipalities have been getting right when it comes to urban beaches.

Hi, Steve Patterson here, host of the debaters, and while I love a funny fight, there's one thing that's not up for debate. The Stratford Festival is world-class theater right here in Canada. Whether you're a fan of Shakespeare, musicals, or classics like Death of a Salesman or Waiting for Godot, there's no better time to experience Canadian talent and no better place to see it than the Stratford Festival. So get your tickets now at Stratfordfestable.ca and experience world-class performance the whole family can enjoy. You know, we even taped the debaters there once, so I guess we're world-class now. This is a CBC podcast.

Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. I feel like a lot of people thought it was dirty when I was going up. And a lot of people didn't really want to go in it. But I was, I never really cared when I was little. I just, I loved being in the water. For a long time, Lake Ontario, at least the parts connected to Toronto, had a bit of a reputation. It was dirty and smelly and not the kind of place that you'd want to spend a sunny summer day. But that has changed significantly over the years.

The city of Toronto has invested a lot to clean up the beaches, and now they are a beloved destination for tourists and Torontoians alike. And just relaxing, listening to the sun of the water, I think it's great that we have this one so close. It's easy to forget that we are a stone's throwaway from such beautiful places where you can lie on the beach, you can swim, you can hike. It's a 40-minute subway ride and a very quick walk, but it's so easy to get here. It's like a no-brainer to come here.

As temperatures rise, thanks to climate change, people are looking for more ways to cool off in the summer. And natural bodies of water and urban centers could be an easy solution. I'm joined now by two people trying to make their city waterways more accessible. Neil Egzgard is the president of the Alberta River Surfing Association and Surf Anywhere. He's part of a potential redevelopment plan around Calgary's Bow River. And Larissa Holman is the Director of Science and Policy with Ottawa Riverkeepers, an independent nonprofit organization. And she is with me in our Ottawa studio.

Good morning to you both. Good morning. Neil, I'm going to start with you because, and I have to start with this question, what exactly is river surfing? River surfing is surfing like you see in the ocean, but on a standing wave. So you have waves that form in a river. and the waves don't move down the river and you balance out the surfboard

going down the wave with the water pushing you downstream. And it can happen anywhere. Yeah, and people are already doing that in Calgary, right? They are, yep, in Calgary and in the mountains in Canaanasca, so the wave we built. Okay, but I understand you are looking to redevelop the

Bow River. Tell us a little bit about what's on the book so far. Yeah, there is a big opportunity in Calgary and a lot of river cities where you can take an area of unused waterfront and turn it into this big cultural area, economic area, and environmental benefit for the city. So what we're doing is there's a gravel bar that formed in the middle of the city that got larger during a flood. We had these really large floods in 2013, and it's now a flood risk. The city has to remove the gravel bar and change it.

And so as part of that, they looked at putting in a urban beach and a whitewater park in this adjustable river wave. And so that's what they're doing. One side of the river is going to be natural, the same is it always been. And the other side is going to have three surfable ways for kayakers, paddlers, bodyboarders, surfers. And it's going to connect people to the riverfront, connect people to the river, create a big economic benefit and make the downtown area, create a cultural anchor in that downtown area. And is the Bow River somewhere that people have felt was somewhere they could go into, Did people worry about the pollution there ever? Or is it always been a place that felt like a good place to go in the water?

The Bow River gets heavily used by Calgarians and probably visitors. So we have people who are floating down the river all the time right now with rented rafts, inflatable unicorns, you name it. People are coming down the river. Okay, Larissa, I want to go to you now because Ottawa just opened up two more docks this summer. I was in Dow's Lake yesterday, for instance. How are you seeing all of these docks being used now? They're being used very, very well.

People are really excited to be seeing these new swim locations that were put in place by the National Capital Commission. And it's really fantastic to see people turning towards the river, people spending time in the river and along the river in different ways. But I would say that there is more of a stigma about getting in the water in the Ottawa area, even though the water quality in the Ottawa River and many of its tributaries is fantastic. Tell me a little bit about that perception out there because I know lots of testing is done, maybe not quite as much. We can get to this in a minute as people would like. But what do we know about the water quality and the public perception, the mismatched public perception? Yeah, I mean, the Ottawa River is a brown river. That's the color of the river. So I think

just visually people see it and think, oh, it must be dirty, but that is natural color. It doesn't have anything to do with water quality. And also similar to other municipalities, but especially here in Ottawa, the city has invested a lot of money in reducing the combined sewer overflows and addressing that source of pollution, which tends to be one of the larger contributors to poor water quality for recreational water quality swimming. Tell me about what is a sewer overflow and how does it happen. I understand there are specific times when it is worse. Yes, and that's a great way to sort of think about when is a good time to go swimming and

when maybe to wait a day or two. A combined sewer overflow sounds really disgusting, but it's pretty normal in all. older municipalities. It's where you have a stormwater sewer and your sewage sewer from homes and buildings as one sewage system. And so when there's a heavy rainfall, what happens is all of that rainwater goes in and overwhelms the system. And so it doesn't make it to the wastewater treatment plant. It overflows into an oversight, an overflow site. And that is in the rivers and sometimes bays and lakes. And so that really does quickly degrade the water quality in those areas because there's

the sewage, there's all of the contaminants that all end up in that freshwater. The good news is that it tends to flow through pretty quickly. And so there are times when after a heavy rainfall, you'd want to avoid a freshwater location. But it's usually 24 hours, 48 hours later, and it's back to being in really good quality. And Neil, is any of that a concern where you are? We have the same issues more with rainfall. Bow River is in the middle of Calgary and so is a surf location.

So when you're in the water, upwind, if you go in the water after a heavy rain, you can feel the increase in pollution. Okay. And has that, have you found that that has been concerning to folks who use the river? Yes, it's concerning, especially when you're creating these recreation areas on the river. You're getting more people immersed in the water. So on the downside, you experience pollution, but on the bright side, by having river recreation spots, you're connecting people to the health of the ecosystem because you can feel it. Why is it important, do you think, Neil, to have cities use their waterways and their lakes and their streams and their rivers in this way? Why is important to bring that back into the fold?

Yeah, one of the big ones is safety across Canada, especially in Ontario. There's a bunch of these things called low-head dams. They're also called drowning machines. You would hear about them a lot of cases in southern Ontario. These are places where you have barriers that are put across the river for irrigation or water storage that are relatively small, but if you go over them, they drown you. And these can be replaced with river recreation areas. So you can take a place that was this hazard that would kill people and turn it into something that is an economic and cultural center. The economic studies for Calgary just showed that it's returning, the waves there are going to return between $2 to $8 million a year.

in total economic contribution. And that is available to any city in Canada, especially in southern Ontario, where there are no recreational waves like that. Larissa, he's sort of talking about some of the economic polls of building something like this. Is there a case like that in Ottawa for the waterways that we have? Not that I know of,

but it would be a great study to do because obviously when you bring people to the water, when you create these spaces, such as the different dock locations that have been in, in different places in Ottawa, it draws people to those areas. And so it brings people to visit. You could have those businesses prop up around it. Whenever there has been times in cities where they've turned infrastructure from underground

waterways to being back at the surface, revitalize those waterway areas, even in some cases where they've turned stormwater ponds into more park-like structures, it creates a boom to that area because people love to be in natural spaces, especially if you're stuck in a city. You know, being able to feel like you're out of the city and being able to relax can be really nurturing. We talked a little bit about the public perception and the war, you know, trying to get people to believe that it is a safe place to swim.

Are you winning that battle, do you think, at this point? You know, what we hear from people is they really love to know what the data is showing and being able to showcase that and prove, like, show that evidence is the strongest argument that we have that water quality is good. And then explaining to them what are the impacts of swimming in an area with poor water quality versus good water quality. And how often in especially the Ottawa-Gatineau area, the water quality is excellent. We are so fortunate.

And I think people get stuck on those short periods where beaches, the water quality drops like after a major storm and focus on that and go, oh, I would never go in there. But the majority of time, it's really wonderful. And that evidence really helps to secure that, even though they might take a while to be convinced. Once you're in the water, it's hard to go back. Part of the concern I understand, too, is that not the testing doesn't happen daily. It happens once a week. Why is that right now?

It's a great question, especially in urban environments. It's important to think about the stresses on those beaches. So there's the storm we talked about after heavy rain, the combined sewer overflows, but also stormwater that doesn't go through a combined overflow can also be quite polluted and affect beaches. So after rainfall events, that can always be a consideration. The testing decision is really done by the municipalities, by the authorities. And when a beach shows that it has really good water quality for a long time, that's when you can securely move away from regular testing.

But it takes away from the ability to understand trends at that beach. and that's the other part of it is over time with climate change, as you mentioned in the intro, conditions are going to be changing at beaches and we need to be informed about how to address those changes. And Neil, is there any testing done in the Bow River? There is testing done in the Bow River, but it's not something that we're looking at regularly. There is testing, and like I just mentioned, when you connect people to the water, everyone becomes much more aware of the water health and the need. But the river is very clean.

How often are you, I mean, I'm assuming you're a surfer, are you? you? Oh yeah. That's why, yep, that's why I build a waves. Yeah, so tell me a little bit of, what is it like to be out there on the water? Oh, it's amazing. You're to get lost in athletic flow. You're connected with the environment. All of your worries disappear and you were lost in the moment of moving yourself and your board or whatever you're riding across the wave. And then you go back in line with a smile on your face and talk to the people who are waiting there with you. Tough to learn. It sounds like there's something I could never do. Oh, no, it's not tough to learn. If you have a good wave, people can

get on it very, very easily. That's the beauty of really good waves, is they're very accessible to all different skill levels and all different abilities. And Larissa, what do you love about getting in the water here in Ottawa? I think it's just the fact that we can disappear from the city.

One of the things that's really fantastic about so many of the swim locations is that they're nestled in around park spaces or green spaces. And so you go from a really strong urban environment. Like, you the heavy downtown area and very quickly you're in a park and it feels like you're a thousand miles away from the city and especially in these really hot summers that's so important for people

to be able to cool down to be able to refresh and and have access to something that just brings a lot of joy okay Larissa Neil thank you very much for this my pleasure well thank you Neil Esgird is the president of the alberta river surfing association and surf anywhere Larissa Holman is the director of science and policy with Ottawa Riverkeepers. Hi, Steve Patterson here, host of the debaters, and while I love a funny fight,

there's one thing that's not up for debate. The Stratford Festival is world-class theater right here in Canada. Whether you're a fan of Shakespeare, musicals, or classics like Death of a Salesman or Waiting for Godot, there's no better time to experience Canadian talent and no better place to see it

than the Stratford Festival. So get your tickets now at Stratfordfestable. CA and experience world-class performance the whole family can enjoy. You know, we even take the debaters there once, so I guess we're world class now. Uncover from CBC Podcasts is your source for exceptional storytelling and groundbreaking journalism. Hear how lives were altered forever by results from one DNA lab. I'm like, what?

What do you mean? He's not my son. And unravel the clues that a gravel pit may hold about one woman's disappearance. It's just, it's odd because there was no trace of a scuffle. There was no nothing. Hear the very best in award-winning true crime. Listen to uncover wherever you get your podcasts. Ian Young is an associate professor of public health at Toronto Metropolitan University

and a lead researcher with Canadian Beachwater Quality Group. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. You know, we've been talking a lot about the stigma that still exists around urban beaches, you know, whether or not they're clean and some say yes. And even though the data says it's, it's, it's, perfectly fine to go into. What does the research actually say about all of this? Yeah, so our team at TMU, we conducted a study across Canada the past few years to actually gather some data on how often

people are getting sick from swimming in beaches from across Canada. And then we tried to link that with water quality levels as well. And what we found was quite encouraging that, you know, the beaches that we that we surveyed were relatively clean from a pollution perspective most of the time. There was occasional spikes in E. coli levels. But on average, you know, they were pretty safe. And we found that the illness levels were also quite low overall. Now, there were some instances where we would see, you know, spikes in illness. And that's typically, again, when you have the E.quilite levels spiking.

And especially when people reported swallowing some water that tended to, increase the risk a little bit as well. That must be hard to track to figure out how many people are actually getting sick after swimming. How are you able to source it back to that? Yeah, so we had teams of students collecting surveys with people at the beach across Canada throughout the summer. They would be surveying beach goers and then we followed up with them after their beach visit as well. And then we linked it back to the water sample results that we took at each beach as well. So it was a pretty extensive process to gather that data.

We heard about the overflow that can sometimes mean that the water is more polluted than otherwise. But what are some of the biggest challenges in keeping urban beaches clean? Yeah, I think, as was mentioned earlier, the impacts of climate change is making that a little bit more difficult. Because we have these extended heat wave type events now that tends to dry out the ground. It makes it less absorbent. So then when we have a heavy rainfall event following an extended dry period or hot period, the ground is not able to absorb that water as well as it normally can. So we have a lot more runoff happening that carries pollution from urban and rural areas

into waterways into our beaches and that can just elevate or spike, lead to spikes or elevations and pollution. And what can cities do to mitigate for that? I think it's part of our overall climate change sort of preparedness is just sort of recognizing that these events are going to be happening more frequently than they used to be. So how can we sort of adapt and plan? And I think cities have already done a lot of work in terms of trying to get rid of their old combined sewers that was talked about earlier. having stormwater management and just general climate change preparedness can help. But in some cases, there's not much we can do other than just letting people know that maybe after an extreme rainfall is the day after is maybe not the best day to go swimming.

But other than that, on the average, I would say that our beaches are quite clean. You heard Larissa talk about some of the things that are affecting the water. and as you just mentioned, the sewage. But there is a problem here that I think we haven't addressed yet, and that is the birds here in Ottawa. The geese are a big thing. I know seagulls are a problem in other parts of the country. How do you reduce the impact of what the birds leave behind?

Yeah, so in our study, actually, one of the things we found was that human sewage was quite low, which is a good thing. But we did find that when equalized levels were high, it was typically due to seagull pollution. So seagull feces making its way into the water. And this was actually linked with illness as well. So I think it's important to manage that. And municipalities can work with Canadian Wildlife Services to, if they see that, you know, seagulls are becoming an issue at beach.

There are ways to do that in a sustainable way to sort of, you know, maybe move their nesting sites to another location that's, better for them, but not directly impacting our beaches. There's other things that we can do in terms of beach management. So grooming the beach sand to remove sources of food for the birds, encouraging people not to feed birds at the beaches. So there's a multitude of things we can do to sort of provide, not encourage birds to use our beaches,

but provide them another space that's better for them, but doesn't impact our beach water quality. curious if which bodies of water you'll swim in. For instance, do you swim in in Lake Ontario? Yeah, I will swim in any water in Canada, but I will check before I go what's the beachwater quality status before. Is there swimming advisory not? And that's what I encourage people to do as well, is just make an informed decision based on the testing results. If there's an advisory, maybe you don't go to that beach or maybe find a different beach that's posted as safe.

So I would say that that's the best we can do in terms of beachgoers and making an informed decision. And what do we lose if we don't take care of our urban water? And we didn't for a long time. And it seems like, as I said, that tide has turned and we are interested in making cities swimable. But if we don't and if we let it, you know, sort of lapse again, what what do we lose? I think it's important to keep these public spaces as places for people to have recreation, to escape, you know, the cool down in our, heat waves that we're experiencing now in the summer, and also as a place of tourism and economic impact that was mentioned before as well. So I think all these factors are very important.

And there's more demand now from the public as well to have access to public spaces that they can use that we've traditionally neglected sort of our waterfront areas. But now I think there's a movement, a swimmable cities type of movement that we should have safe, equitable access to these waters. Okay, Ian Young, thank you very much for this. Thank you. Ian Young is an associate professor of public health at Toronto Metropolitan University and a lead researcher with Canadian Beachwater Quality Group. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name's Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca.