The Current - Artemis II: Humanity’s Return to the Moon

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

NASA’s Artemis II mission is about to send a crew farther from Earth than any human has ever gone. The mission marks the first crewed lunar flight since 1972. We speak with Gordon Osinski, a planetary geologist at Western University who has helped train astronauts, including Canadian Jeremy Hansen, about why this mission is such a critical milestone for Canada’s role in deep-space exploration. Plus, Michelle Hanlon, a space law professor, on what the return to the Moon raises about ownership, cooperation, and the law that will govern this new era of space exploration

This is the sound of your legacy ERP. Silo data, broken processes, nothing works in harmony. With Workday, you get a next-gen ERP that unites your people in finance on a single AI platform so you can be future ready. Workday, the AI platform for HR and finance. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. It's a special day here. The rocket for Artemis II is ready.

It's on its way to the launch site. And in just a few weeks, we'll be launching out of here to fly around the moon. That's the Canadian astronaut Jeremy Hanson. He was standing outside the Kennedy Space Center in Florida just over a week ago. The space launch system, or SLS rocket that he's talking about, is towering behind him getting set for the Artemis II launch. That mission aims to loop around the moon and travel further into deep space than humans have ever gone. Before that happens, the Artemis team still has to go through a series of system

checks. One of them, the wet dress rehearsal, is scheduled for today. The launch was set for this Friday, but has been moved to later in February because of cold weather. Jeremy Hanson will be the only Canadian out of the four astronauts on board. Gordon Ossinsky has worked with him and the others training them as part of the Artemis 3 science team. Gordon is also professor of Earth Sciences at Western University. Gordon, good morning. Good morning. It's been a a lot of talk about this. The rocket is now on the launch pad. How big of a deal is this to you that we are now in the countdown for this launch? It's beginning to get real, isn't that? You know, this mission, of course, like most missions, has been under development for many years now.

But when that rocket rolled out last weekend, it's definitely getting real. And as far as I know, this wet dress rehearsal, too, is on track. What does that look like, this wet dress rehearsal? That's going to happen tonight. Yeah, so they've already started the countdown to the wet dress rehearsal. They do it just like the actual mission. I believe they've started up already, started to power up the core stage of the rocket. And sometime later today, they'll begin fueling the rocket with the liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen. And then as they get closer and closer, they'll end up with the crew actually doing a walkout to the launch pad.

So that's very, I mean, the next step is essentially blasting them off into space. Yes, if all the checkboxes are filled after this wet dress rehearsal, next Sunday is the first possible launch. You know Jeremy Henson well. When I spoke with him in the fall, he talked about this is a big step. It's also a dangerous thing at any moment to launch yourself into space, but he said this is a risk worth taking. Tell me what you know about him and how you imagine he is preparing in these days. Yeah, I've had the pleasure of, I've met Jeremy 15 years ago now, we've become friends, I've been training him in geology and taking him up on many trips to the Arctic,

so we've obviously, you know, had lots of good conversations. He's, you know, I think even that little clip, right, he's an incredibly down-to-earth person. I might come across as a low-key, but he's, you know, of course being a fighter pilot in the World Canadian Air Force. he's well used to these, you know, risky situations, flying in very complicated machinery. So I'm sure he's down there, you know, obviously thinking about things and what could happen, all the possibilities. But definitely he will be focused on the mission at hand. This is an international mission. How important is it that a Canadian astronaut is part of this?

I think it's an incredible coup, right? the fact that on this first, you know, mission back to the moon since 1972, we have a Canadian on board. I think it's incredible that the Canadian Space Agency was able to negotiate this. It really puts us up there into the major kind of league of space-faring nations. And as you mentioned, this mission will go farther than any mission before. And so, you know, that will always be in the record books. And so for a relatively small, modest-sized space program, I think it's huge for Canada. What does that international component actually mean? People will see this rocket standing on the launch platform and on the sides of it,

I mean, they're celebrating, you know, the upcoming 250th birthday of the United States. But there are the Artemis Accords that bring the world into this, right? Yes. So this first mission, you know, is quite U.S.-centric. Of course, the SOS rocket is built by NASA in the U.S. But something kind of hidden, you would have to look very closely, is at the top of the spacecraft, there's obviously the Orion capsule, but as part of that Orion spacecraft, there's a section that is actually provided by the European Space Agency.

And you could argue it's the most critical section because it's got all the life support systems for the astronauts. So even, you know, picturing, looking up at the rocket, there is, you know, technology from other nations. As we get through and expand into the later missions, you know, you're quite right, is now 61 countries that have signed up to the Artemis Accords. So way more countries want to be involved are getting involved than we have historically, for example, on the International Space Station. So I think as we go through, you know, hopefully it's like the Apollo program where we have more and more missions.

We'll see astronauts from many different countries, other missions contributing different technologies to part of the architecture, you know, rovers and things, which Canada is also hoping to do as well. other mobility platforms on the lunar surface. Tell us a little bit about what is going to happen. This spacecraft, the astronauts have named Integrity, this is what they will use to get close to the moon. Explain what is going to unfold if everything goes according to plan.

Yeah, so we've got the launch. Fingers crossed next Sunday. That will be like any launch where they've got to escape Earth's atmosphere. year. They'll then do, you know, some obviously testing of everything on the spacecraft to make sure that everything that worked on the ground is still working after launch, because as you can imagine, if you've seen any pictures of launches, the astronauts and the spacecraft pull a lot of G. If that all goes according to plan, what the first major decision would be to go into what we call a high Earth orbit or HEO. If you're familiar with the space station, most, just about all, the satellites we have, they're in a low Earth orbit of about 400 or so kilometers. So by going into this high Earth orbit, that will actually be the farthest humans have gone

from the surface of the Earth also since the last moon mission, because it goes to about 70,000 kilometers away. So it's like this giant loop of Earth that will take about a day. Continue testing, of course, monitoring everything, and then perhaps there's the most critical decision of the mission. There's lots of them, but you're You could argue this is the most critical, where they need to decide, are we going to stay on orbit the Earth or we're going to go to the moon? And so there's something called the trans lunar injection where they have to fire up the rockets on the spacecraft, and that will take them away and send them on the course to the moon. And, you know, it's critical because if anything then happens, they can't turn around. You have to go to the moon to then return to Earth.

And when you go to the moon, one of the parts of this is they are going to be looping around. and when they are on the dark side of the moon, the backside of the moon, I mean, they're out of contact for, what, 40 minutes? Is that right? Yeah, it's anywhere up to 40 minutes, which I'm sure is going to be the longest, you know, 40 minutes of their entire lives.

What happens then? I mean, they are as far away as humans have been. In those 40 minutes, what will be going on, do you think? Of course, you know, they will be monitoring the spacecraft, as we've discussed, and they'll be continuing to do throughout the mission. But as they get closer to the moon, they are going to be doing some science as well.

There's various science that they're doing in terms of life support systems and life sciences. But as they get closer, the crew are equipped with cameras and they'll be doing lots of observations of the surface of the moon as they disappear and then reappear around the far side

because they're going to get a perspective that no human has had on the moon. As you mentioned, you know, Apollo actually kind of He can picture it hugging closer to the moon as they did the flybys. We go out and get this unique perspective, and there's really intriguing things happen that we don't fully understand as, you know, things go into the far side and reappear on the dark side. So it will be an exciting time, and hopefully they'll have the science to focus on as they don't have that communication with Earth.

This mission in and of itself is important, but as you've said, in some ways it lays the ground for Artemis 3, which you are deeply involved in as a geologist. Tell me more about what you're most excited about there. Yeah, I mean, as Jeremy said in many interviews, you know, this really is the stepping stone for Artemis 3 and getting humans back to the surface of the moon. And, you know, my lifetime, and I'm sure many listeners' lifetimes. So it's an incredibly important milestone.

I've heard Jeremy say, right there, testing out the spacecraft and they're going to hand over the keys to the Artemis 3 team, who, of course, then also have to lamb. So that's a whole other spacecraft architecture that they have to learn. And then, of course, one of the most exciting things about that is that they'll be doing geology on the surface of the moon. And so for me, you know, it's a dream come true. I've been working my entire career towards it.

And it's exciting to think that we'll have astronauts on the lunar surface. We've mapped out a whole bunch of science questions for them. And a big part of that is that they'll be bringing back many tens of kilograms of samples. and we've been studying the Apollo samples now for over 50 years and we've studied new things. And so this will open up a door to a whole new chapter of not just lunar science, but the science of understanding the early part of our solar system, including our own planet. I'm going to let you go, but just before I do that, when he was here in October, Jeremy Hansen talked about how this could be proof in some ways

that we can still do big things, right? Your dog would like to get in on this as well. Tell us about just the big things you think we can do. Yeah, I hope it reminds us of that, right? There's lots of what's going on in the world these days, but I hope this is a new chapter of space exploration, and it really enables us to focus, you know, look up at the moon on Sunday and next week

and thinking that, yeah, you know, humans have come together as a species to make this happen, and we can do good things when we do all work together. Gordon, good to speak with you. Thank you. Thank you. Gordon Asinski is a professor at Western University and a member of NASA's Artemis 3 science team. This is the sound of your legacy ERP. Nothing works in harmony.

Now this is the sound of Workday, a next-gen ERP that future-proofs your organization. Workday, the AI platform for HR and finance. It's been said that being neighbors with America is like sleeping with an elephant. one gets affected by every twitch and grunt. Well, these days, there's a lot more than twitches and grunts in dealing with the U.S. I'm Paul Hunter.

And I'm Katie Simpson. We're reporters here in Washington, and every Wednesday will bring you a smart conversation to help you make sense of how American politics are affecting Canada. Our new podcast is called Two Blocks from the White House. Find and follow now wherever you get your podcasts, including YouTube. The Artemis Mission isn't the only. lunar exploration going on. China has also been ramping up its efforts as of last fall. Chinese officials say they are on track to land humans on the moon by 2030. Private companies have also

been launching lunar landers and all of these missions raise legal questions about who gets to do what on the moon once they get there. My next guest has been called the godmother of space law. Michelle Hanlon is executive director of the Center for Air and Space Law at the University of Mississippi, co-founder of For All Mankind. It's an organization dedicated to protecting human heritage in outer space. She's in Oxford, Mississippi this morning. Michelle, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. How significant, I want to get to the legal perspective on this, but first, just how significant is this Artemis II mission, do you think? Oh my God. It's significant. It's exciting. It's putting humanity on a whole new threshold like we've never been before.

You know, when people compare it often to Apollo, but this is very, very different because we are planning, as humans are planning on going back to stay. So this is not going around the moon to figure out where to plant a fly. This is going around the moon to figure out where we are going to create an installation, start mining for lunar ice, and create infrastructure,

truly making us a multi-planetary species. It's also significant because there are others who are trying to get there, and presumably the United States and its partners want to be there first. Do you see this as a space race? Absolutely. We are definitely in space race 2.0. And again, this is a very different race. The United States has already been to the moon. So this is not about showing sort of national prowess, although China would love to beat the United States, put humans back on the moon before the United States does for that strategic sort of reputational bump. But we have an interesting sort of conundrum because we have law in space. We have a treaty. Unfortunately, it's only Unfortunately, it's only two pages long.

So there are a lot of gaps in the treaty, and those gaps are giving nations and commercial entities a first move or advantage. I want to talk about the legal kind of framework here, because why does it matter who arrives back on the moon first? Is this a matter, not to trivialize it, but is it a matter of first dibs in some ways? We get there first, and, I mean, there are flags that have implanted there are already, but explain how that works legally.

Absolutely. So the Outer Space Treaty, which was negotiated and finally signed in the 1960s, in 1967 in particular, says that you cannot, a nation can't claim territory in outer space. So you cannot go and say, hey, the Moon belongs to China. The Moon belongs to United States and Canada. You can't do that. But we do have a provision which says, but if you have an installation on the Moon, then you can sort of exclude people from that installation. And we also have this concept of due regard. If you go to the moon or any place else in space, you must implement your activities with due regard for the activities of others. So what does that mean? Well, we don't have a legal definition. So the people, the individuals, the, sorry, the nations or the entities that get there first, will have the opportunity to create the norm of what due regard means. And so, you know, let's just be honest. The United States thinks that China's going to say, hey, you know, we need you to not come within 20 meters, 20 kilometers of us. And likewise, the Chinese think that the U.S. is going to do the same thing.

So there is an advantage to being there first because you sort of get the lay of the land and get to make those rules. You can't make the rules unless you're there. Is your sense that that language in that outer space treaty from 1967, that space is the province of all humankind, is that language going to be respected in an era where international norms regularly are being put into the shredder? Absolutely. You know, this is a really interesting concept, and it's the expiration and use of space or the province of all humankind. You know, what does that mean? The beauty of the outer space treaty is that it doesn't have a meaning. We don't know what that means. And so we are working to see what that means, and we are working to interpret that, which is why this race is so important. You know, I'm American. I'm fully behind the Artemis program, but I really want to see China succeed as well, because we want as many voices. as possible, helping us figure out what the norms in space ought to be.

There's a legal component to this, but there are also ethics involved as well. How should we be thinking about the ethical questions around moon exploration and who gets to do what? This is the beauty of the Artemis Accords, because the Artemis Accords are not a treaty. They're a political commitment, and they are trying to be as inclusive as possible. Oman just signed the treaty this week. Portugal, we have countries like Ecuador involved. And so this is an opportunity to have a say, to figure out a way to be involved. And this is the ethical component that you're talking about.

Yes, this is a space race between the U.S. and China at this point. However, everything we do in space will affect everybody here on Earth. Even if you do not have any interest in going to space, no interest in going to Mars, the fact that we are going to space and becoming a multi-planetary species is going to affect everything that we do here on Earth. whether we get much new resources or not, it's just going to change sociology. So sociology, sorry. And so, you know, we need to make sure that the lesser developed countries,

countries that don't have space programs, have an outlet, have a way to get involved. And that is what Artemis tries to do. I guess that goes back to the question I asked earlier, which is whether a treaty like this will be respected. And we are more fractured as a world now than we have been in some, time. And you have norms that ostensibly were put in place not to be disrespected regularly being disrespected by the President of the United States, certainly, but by other nations as well.

And you just wonder whether the current legal framework is still adequate to deal with the time that we're living in right now. Absolutely. The Outer Space Treaty is a legal framework. It has a lot of gaps that are open for interpretation. This is both a beauty and a hazard. And we see with, for example, China, sort of testing the waters, if you will, with the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea and flouting the rules there. This is humanity. We aren't built to always do the right thing, sadly. But we are built to continue to test and tease and probe and explore. The beauty of space is that it is truly infinite. Once we get to the moon, we build that infrastructure. The idea isn't just to sit on the moon and own it. The idea is to move beyond the moon, to get to more of the vast

resources. The farther we can explore into space, the more we will have to fight down here on Earth about those rare earth metals and other resources. Just have a minute or so left. The other idea, and maybe it's romantic to some people, is that space can be a unifier, that this is something that goes truly, like beyond us here on this earth. you believe that? I wear the rosiest colored glasses you will ever see. I absolutely believe that.

We are, you know, once we realize that we are all in this together, we are going to unify and explore together. It's really quite something to live through this. I mean, it feels like a moment, right? Oh, my goodness. This is, I pinch myself every morning

when I wake up. This is the most exciting time to be alive. We are on the threshold of something that we cannot even begin to understand. understand. Michelle. Autumice, too, is just the start. Good to speak with you, Michelle. Thank you very much.

Thank you so much, Matt. Michelle Hanlon is Executive Director of the Center for Air and Space Law at the University of Mississippi, co-founder of For All Mankind, an organization dedicated to protecting human heritage in outer space. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening.

I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.