The Current - As L.A. wildfires rage, so do conspiracy theories

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

Wildfires are still raging in California, but officials are also fighting the rapid spread of misinformation and even conspiracy theories. We hear how efforts are being hampered by these false claims, including one Hollywood actor’s allegation that the fires are intended to clear people out of the state.

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This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. It's been relentless for my personnel. However, our focus is on the residents and communities that we've been sworn to protect. And this has been an absolutely unprecedented event. However, we know on Tuesday, those 70 mile an hour winds, if we get another fire start,

it's going to be very difficult to contain, even with all of the resources that we have from out of state and from the federal government. That's Los Angeles County Fire Chief Anthony Maroney speaking with CBS News. Those wildfires continue to wreak havoc. Crews are out in full force battling blazes. And among the fire chief's fears, as you heard, is that strong winds will make the situation worse in the hours ahead. Another fear the wildly spreading miss and disinformation here's actor Mel Gibson on Fox News after his home burned down. I know they were messing

with the water letting reserves go for one reason or another. They've been doing that a while. And then in the events like this you sort of look, well, is it on purpose? Which it's an insane thing to think. But one begins to ponder whether or not there is a purpose in mind. What could it be, you know? Do they want the state empty? I don't know. We'll hear more about the misinformation and how to fight it in a moment. But first, Raymond Francis is one of the thousands of people out of their homes in Altadena because of the wildfires. He moved to California about a decade ago. He's an engineer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

He's from Sudbury, Ontario. Raymond, good morning. Good morning. How are you doing? I'm all right, all things said. All things said. Tell me about your home and what you know about it. Yeah, I learned a couple of days after evacuating that the house was destroyed in the fire and really there's nothing left but a cracked foundation at this point.

I'm sorry. That sounds, I mean, what a terrible thing to go through, especially because you just bought this house, right? I did. Yeah. Yeah. Just a few weeks ago and I had only spent a few

nights in it. I hadn't even finished unpacking when it was time to go. What do you know about how, how fast and intense that fire was that, that leveled this house? It was fast and intense. It, so we had winds of on the order of 160 kilometers an hour overnight. There'd been a windstorm going for a couple of days. That evening, in fact, I was

on my way out to dinner with friends. What should have been a dinner at home, I was supposed to host them and they, well, the power was out, so we had to move. But as we were leaving a dinner at home? I was supposed to host them and they Well the power was out so we had to move but as we were leaving for dinner at about 625 p.m We heard from a friend who lives closer to the east side of Alta Dena where the Eaton Canyon is and where the fire began He sent us a message showing flames from his front window. That's a few kilometers to the east and by a few kilometers to the east. And by a few hours later, we had evacuated and my house had been destroyed. It had raced across town in just less than an overnight period.

And as I'm sure you know, tremendous number of houses destroyed in between. That's terrifying. Do you mind me asking, I mean, one of the things that we're hearing is that there are a lot of people because of the natural area in which many of the houses are built and wildfires in past who weren't able or didn't have insurance, for example.

Do you mean on this brand new home, do you have insurance? I do, I have a mortgage on that home and I couldn't have got it without insurance, but there was no private company who would offer insurance. Thankfully the state of California had set up what they call the California Fair Plan, which is fire insurance for homes which can't get private insurance.

And so, I mean, it's just been a couple of days, but what are you thinking about now? I'm interested in where you're staying, but how are you wrapping your head around what you've been through? Yeah, well, I'm staying with a friend who has a colleague from the lab who has a spare bedroom. And yeah, wrapping my head around the situation.

I, you know, it took a couple of days from evacuating to getting the news about the state of the situation. It took a couple of days from evacuating to getting the news about the state of the house. That gave me time to think about the two futures that were in front of me, the one where my house was standing surrounded by a lot of destruction and the one where the house is gone and now I know which of those futures were in. I had some time to prepare for that, but it was still a pretty emotional experience to lose the house that I had, the first house I'd ever bought and just about everything I owned in it.

So there's an emotional aspect there, but I've been trying very hard to focus on all the practical needs, filing insurance claims and buying socks and underwear and things and preparing to stabilize my situation and even go back to work soon. Part of that stabilization will be finding somewhere to live. I mean, you said you're staying with friends. What is the immediate plan for that, if you don't mind me asking? Yeah, I think I'll be here for a few more days. I have the people with whom I evacuated

on the early morning of last Wednesday, their house was not destroyed, took a lot of smoke in, but they're cleaning that up now. And they've offered to keep me for a few weeks in their spare room. And so I should be able to do that. I'm looking for rental housing for the period of some months after that, hopefully close

enough to the lab that I don't have to buy a car. And is the lab, I mean the lab is close to the fire zone. Is the jet propulsion laboratory in danger from those wildfires? Yeah, it was certainly threatened and I think it still is. The lab abuts the Angeles National Forest and it is right next to Altadena. It's closed, it was damaged a bit by wind, but not, we're told, by the fire itself. And they've been working very hard to keep it that way.

One of the things, and we're to talk about this in just a moment. One of the things that people who have been through, what you have been through are up against is that it's difficult to figure out in the stream of information, what is true and what is not true. We heard Mel Gibson not speaking on Fox News earlier, and he's not alone in, in, in talking about some of those rumors and some of the theories that are

floating around. What is this, what is about some of those rumors and some of the theories that are floating around. What is this, what is the impact of that on you as you are trying to pick up the pieces? Thankfully, so far the impact on me personally has been minimal. Uh, I've been so disconnected from my usual, um, contacts and, and everything that a lot of the channels that might bring that kind of misinformation to me are kind of closed. I'm talking to my direct colleagues and my direct

friends and the people immediately around me and I'm using sources of information that are directly from the Los Angeles county or from the state of California. And so, yeah, I think I haven't personally hit a lot of that. In any situation like this, even before this kind of misinformation happens, there's always difficulty in getting accurate information. Where do I find the map of where is the evacuation? Is my home in that area now or will it soon be? At the best of times, it can be hard to find that.

But fortunately, the conspiracy theories and the like have mostly not been hitting me and I haven't suffered too much personally yet. This is home for you. You've been down there, as I mentioned, for about a decade or so. That's right, yeah. Is your sense that you'll stay? Yeah, I came down here to work on robotic missions to explore the solar system

and this is the place where we do that. So I will most likely stay. Having gone through this, it sounds like a cliche, but you're here, we're hearing about loss of life, loss of property, loss of possessions as well, but you're here. Do you take some element of solace in the fact that it could have been, as bad as it was, it could have been worse? It certainly could have been. I'm alive, I'm safe.

My partner was visiting at the time, and he made it out with me, and we were together. And that's, you know, we have that. Uh, and the, you know, there are a lot of things that I've lost, but I haven't lost my life and I haven't lost my friends and they have been very helpful to me in the aftermath. And so the future is still in front of me. What an awful thing to go through. Um, I'm really glad that you would take the time to talk to us in the midst of everything.

And I wish you the very best. Raymond, take care of yourself and thank you. Thank you. Raymond Francis is originally from Sudbury, Ontario. And as you heard, lost his home in the fire in Altadena, California. I'm Sarah Trelevin. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now. As we mentioned earlier, these wildfires aren't the only thing that authorities in California are fighting to contain. They're also dealing with the rapid spread of misinformation. What in the world? They don't, the firemen don't have hoses, so they're like literally using purses? Women's handbags?

Filling up women's handbags to put out fires. Look at this. What in the world? That's from a post on Instagram. The head of the LA Fire Department told the Wall Street Journal that firefighters were not, in fact, using purses. They were using canvas bags that are standard equipment for putting out small fires. Meanwhile, US President-elect Donald Trump has falsely accused California of failing

to protect people from wildfires because they were using water to protect fish instead. Here is how California Governor Gavin Newsom responded on NBC's Meet the Press. I don't know what he's referring to when he talks about the Delta smelt in reservoirs. The reservoirs are completely full of the state reservoirs here in Southern California, that misinformation, I don't think advantages or aids any of us. Responding to Donald Trump's insults, we would spend another month.

I'm very familiar with them. Every elected official that he disagrees with, very familiar with them. Sarah Labowitz is a Carnegie Endowment expert on disaster recovery policy and has been following this. Sarah, good morning to you. Hi, good morning. How would you describe the miss and disinformation

ecosystem, if I can put it that way, that you are seeing as these fires continue? Yeah, I mean, it's just, listening to your previous caller, it really is so, it's maddening to think about the information ecosystem and, it's maddening to think about the information ecosystem and how it's being poisoned by bad information, especially when people really need credible information in order to be able to evacuate, to keep themselves safe, to

recover. I've been tracking this over a couple of storms, and especially since Twitter, since Metta, started to pull back the reins on content moderation. And we saw this with Hurricane Helene back in October in North Carolina and Florida, the same kinds of information flowing around. I would say there's two main themes. One is speculation about what started the disaster.

And secondly, it's about who's responsible. And there's rumors and lies that circulate in both categories. How is that, and you've hinted at this when it comes to meta, but how is that exacerbated when one of the people who is spreading the misinformation happens to control the network? Elon Musk has been very active on Twitter.

One of the first things he said was there was a tweet from conspiracy theorist Alex Jones saying, the Los Angeles fires are part of a larger plot to wage economic warfare and deindustrialize the United States before triggering total collapse. Elon Musk replies to that, true. How does that ecosystem change when one of the people who controls that flow of information

is actively involved in this? Well, and the algorithm is prioritizing emotional content that makes people mad, and it moves that kind of content to the top of the feed so that more people see it and it spreads. And I would say the other thing that we're seeing is that there are a number of researchers who've been tracking foreign influence

in further spreading that kind of misinformation and disinformation. So it's a really kind of toxic mix where if you're in the middle of a disaster, it's really hard to avoid these kinds of rumors, lies about what's going on at a moment when people are really vulnerable and really wanna know what's happening

and what they should do about it. You were writing about that when it came to, for example, the wildfires in Hawaii, in Lahaina, the influence of some foreign actors there. What did you see? So, I talked about earlier, there's just kind of two foreign actors there. What did you see? So, you know, I talked about earlier, there's just kind of two categories of information. What caused the disaster and who's responsible?

And in the Lahaina wildfires, there was speculation that there was a kind of weather weapon that caused the fires. And that bad information was then really amplified and fueled by Chinese sponsored bots. We saw the same thing in Hurricane Helene after also after a train derailment in 2023 in Ohio. Russian sponsored bots have also been responsible

for fueling just huge amounts of spread of this kind of bad information. What is the goal of that? of spread of this kind of bad information. What is the goal of that? Well, I mean, I think when we, thinking about the misinformation ecosystem broadly, you know, the goal I think is, what you think is happening has a huge effect

on what you believe we should do about it. And so I think a number of actors look at a disaster as a time when people are really vulnerable and when it's possible to really significantly influence how people view important issues. So if you fundamentally believe that the wildfires are caused by environmental regulation or funding for Ukraine or because there are women firefighters,

then you might be tempted to do something about those things instead of doing something about the fact that the climate change is causing these really extreme disasters. And so what are we doing about the insurance policy or development policy or climate policy? Those are the things that we should be thinking about in the aftermath of a disaster. And the misinformation in this is a way

of distracting from what's really at stake. And undermining confidence in the government that we've been making those decisions? Absolutely. And that's to me what is really heart wrenching. I live in Houston. I have lived through a number of disasters, most significantly Hurricane Harvey in 2017, which was a kind of similar game changing disaster. The way that the rain fell was the kind of first of its kind, really large scale, heavy, heavy rain storm

on a soaked environment. And the damage was really, really bad. And we didn't deal with this kind of this scale of disinformation. You know when people are living through a disaster you need good information and you need to trust your elected officials. Disaster is messy and sometimes elected officials make mistakes but you still we still fundamentally need to have trust that the government is going to keep us safe and that the people who are managing the emergency are, um, have our best interests in mind and we should follow

their instructions and that's what this misinformation targets. Do you understand why, why those stories would stick? I mean, part of this, you've written that, that in some of these rumors, I mean, they might start from a kernel of truth, but also at their heart. I mean, this is a really you've written that in some of these rumors, I mean, they might start from a kernel of truth, but also at their heart, I mean, this is a really emotional time and that these are emotional appeals in some ways. Absolutely, and the algorithm prioritizes emotional content.

But I would say, in a disaster, you're really scared. You're often disconnected because you're dealing with other things, but also because, as we saw in California, the cell towers were also impacted by the fires. It can be really hard to get connected. So you might be able to sign on to your social media feed for just a few seconds,

see some information that happens to be bad, and that informs your thinking. You don't have the ability to fact check. So all the stuff about how we combat misinformation, disinformation in a normal time, very hard to do in a disaster when your connectivity is limited and you're really emotional and sort of supercharged. Let me just ask you two final things in the last couple of minutes that we have. One is what do you make of what authorities what authorities and agencies, um, people like the office

of the governor, Gavin Newsom, um, going directly on to social media and disputing what someone like Elon Musk has said, but also setting up websites, fire fact, California fire facts.com does that in, as the rumors are spreading, is that an appropriate way of addressing the misinformation that's out there? I do think we need much more good information out there in a variety of forms and that government needs

to become more fluent in the ways that people are consuming information. They certainly need to be out on their own channels. I think they need to be more networked with influencers locally who are sharing a lot of information. I will say, the governor's website, I also looked at, there's some really amazing information

from LA County Recovers where they're mapping house by house the damage from the disasters. It's really incredible that they've been able to stand that up. And so there is good information that is also flowing, and I'm heartened by that. Just finally, briefly, I mean, we've lived through a pandemic. These fires continue to rage.

What are you worried about when it comes to the next huge disaster? You know, I think that disasters like this are, should be wakeup calls about how we have to adapt. And, you know, this And this kind of hurricane strength fire is something that we really haven't seen before. And it should really focus our attention on what we need to do to adapt to this climate. And it's not enough to just wait for the next disaster,

we have to be planning in advance. And planning in advance as well in terms of how we're going to communicate with each other? Absolutely. And what relationships and sort of trust do we need in order to communicate to both survive the disaster and rebuild after? Sarah, thank you very much for this. I appreciate you.

Sarah Labowitz is a Carnegie Endowment expert on disaster recovery policy.