The Current - Bob Woodward on war and the American presidency

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

Journalist Bob Woodward's new book, War, takes us inside the White House to explore how the presidencies of Joe Biden and Donald Trump tackled global conflicts, from Ukraine to the Middle East to the fight for the American presidency itself.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. Bob Woodward has spent a good deal of his storied career reporting on U.S. presidents and the power they wield. His first book, All the President's Men, co-authored with fellow Washington Post reporter Carl Bernstein, came out 50 years ago. It gave readers a behind-the-scenes look at the Watergate scandal that led to the downfall of President Richard Nixon. The 22 books that followed cemented Woodward's trademark style, detailed but intimate accounts that transported readers back to the rooms where history unfolded. His latest book, War, is no exception. But this time,

Woodward focuses on the legacy of not one, but two presidents, revealing how President Joe Biden's administration handled simultaneous wars in the Middle East and Ukraine, and contrasting that with events unfolding inside former President Donald Trump's inner circle as he prepares for a second run at the presidency. Bob Woodward, good morning. Morning. I want to get into the many revelations that you have in this book, but just to sort of set the stage and frame this for us, why did you want to focus on these two conflicts and

the contrast between these two camps? What was it about that framing that drew your eye to it? Well, first of all, wars define history. And how we get involved or don't get involved in those wars is hugely significant. Right. And was it the contrast between those like did you have that sort of framing how it sort of worked between the two camps as you started reporting it or did that framing mechanism kind of emerge as you got deeper into your reporting well i tried to stick to

the reporting and what i find and i let that drive uh what I write and make it as empirical as possible. Sure. And try to avoid getting into the political cross currents, which are, of course, quite intense. Right. Let's get into the meat of it, because, boy, you've made a lot of news here. Right. Let's get into the meat of it, because, boy, you've made a lot of news here. One of the things that's been reported on the most is the Biden administration's concern in 2022 that Russian President Vladimir Putin might turn to nuclear weapons in his bid to win the war in Ukraine.

How real was that threat in that moment? Well, it was taken very seriously by the White House here, and rightly so when people start talking about using nuclear weapons, particularly in the case of Putin. Deep, deep worry. There is a scene I have in the book where Secretary of Defense from the United States here, Lloyd Austin, actually calls the Russian defense minister and says, write out. We know you are contemplating the use of tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine and then lays out the consequences. It's a very sophisticated look, examination, the Russian defense minister Shogu says, I don't take kindly to being threatened. And Austin said, gets one of the great lines off, I think, Mr. Minister, I am the leader of the most powerful military in the history of the world. I don't make threats. You quote Biden talking to his national security advisor, Jake Sullivan,

and the quote there that really stood out to me was Sullivan saying, quote, we need to open up a channel, not on negotiating Ukraine, but on the United States and Russia avoiding cataclysm, end quote. We have thus far avoided cataclysm, end quote. We have thus far avoided cataclysm. How'd they pull that off? Well, they've, you know, it's delicate, and you've got to kind of pull back and look at who Putin is, and the attack on Ukraine, I mean, is just barbaric. And if you go into, as I do, the reason, it's kind of like Putin's concluded just very dramatically, well, Ukraine does not exist. So the worry is so intense that Biden talks to Putin also. Biden calls President Xi of China and asks him to actually go public and say the obvious, but hey, let's avoid a nuclear war. So you take that, these moments that are obviously tense, historically fraught, and you contrast that with Donald Trump's relationship

with Vladimir Putin, which saw him, I mean, secretly sending these COVID testing devices to the Russian leader. Tell me about that. Not just the devices, but the very expensive equipment that was needed by people in this country. And this is while Trump is president of the United States, trying to protect the public as much as possible. But what happens in that conversation is really important because Putin said to Trump, please don't tell anybody you sent these to me. And I don't care. I don't care. Fine. No, no, Putin. I mean, this is the leader, the autocratic leader of Russia. No, no, I don't want you to tell anyone because people will get

mad at you, not me. And I mean, here is Putin forming almost a public relations alliance with Trump to protect Trump. And, of course, when this came out in the book recently for the first time, the Kremlin, I was astounded, confirmed it, said, oh, yes, this is exactly what happened. And, of course, Trump is out denying it. Right. what happened. And of course, Trump is out denied. Right. I mean, it's interesting that Trump, his claim is that his closeness with Putin is an asset, right? And you reveal in the book that they continue to talk. What do you make of their relationship and where it might go if Trump does win the upcoming election? Well, the CIA director, Bill Burns,

reported, and I quote this in the book, and I think it's really important, quote, from Burns, Putin manipulates. He's professionally trained to do that. to do that. Putin's got a plan just as he did when Trump was in office, and playing Trump. This is, you know, the intelligence, as I found in the reporting on this, is much better than people, I think, expected. We know we have, at one one point we had a human source in the Kremlin. So pretty much we know what is going on and what the motives are. And this is a design by Putin. Just I think last week when he was being asked, well, if you talk to Putin, he said, well, I'm not going to comment on that. But if I did, it would be smart.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. If you took a look at the digital copy that I have of your book, it is completely marked up and with frantic writing as I sort of burn through the the the Ukraine and Putin and Trump part of it. And then my writing just explodes as you get into the Middle East and the relationship between President Biden and Israel.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. the relationship between President Biden and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Biden tells Secretary of State Blinken, the quote was, I've committed my entire career to Israeli security in separate tirades. He's got some nasty language about Netanyahu, an SOB, a liar, a bad effing guy. What should we take away from that, given that Biden and the U.S., largely speaking, remain such staunch allies and protectors of Israel? Well, this is the conclusion that Biden makes, which is very, very severe, and about Netanyahu, he doesn't trust him at all. And to his close associates in the White House, he calls Netanyahu a liar. On a personal level, it's total distrust, but there is a policy alliance and the United States under Biden does support Israel. But there is that personal tension.

Your overall assessment of Joe Biden is that he'll be studied in history as an example of steady and purposeful leadership. But he also pointed out he had some missteps. The chaotic exit from Afghanistan in 2021, 13 U.S. service members were killed, U.S. citizens were left behind, the Taliban swept back into power. How did those events shape Biden's responses to the other two global conflicts that he focused on? Well, Afghanistan hurt him, and it's a stain that's never going to be erased. It was a mistake. But what Biden has done is he's 81 years old. He knew Vietnam. He was in Congress.

He was in the Senate at this time. And he really saw what happened to the United States with Vietnam of sending American troops to fight in a foreign war. United States during the Vietnam era, it's almost unbelievable to recall this, the United States sent half a million troops to Vietnam. What Biden did, he realized getting American troops involved in a foreign war is a path you don't want to go on unless the United States has been attacked directly. I'm not, I mean, there are scenes in the book which I think are very essential to the understanding of history. And Biden just saying, I'm not sending American troops to Ukraine. And he's getting pushback from him. He said, I'm just not doing it.

Let's talk a bit about this election campaign specifically and the possibility that Donald Trump could return to office. A lot of people that kept Trump and his presidency in check during his administration are now actively campaigning against him. His inner circle is completely depleted. What does an unchecked Donald Trump presidency look like, do you think? Well, you need the team. the team. And, you know, here he is, former top military person, General Mark Milley. I quote Milley in my book talking about Trump. And Milley is a respected, experienced military person. I quote him saying that Trump is the most dangerous person that Milley says that Trump is a fascist to the core. Imagine, you know, one of the top people in your government really making that indictment based on years of personal experience. I want to ask you about the role of the media in all of this. You know, there's endless debate about the coverage of Trump, what we learned in 2016, what we've learned since,

how our coverage has worked in this election in general. There's an awful lot of, I think, justified criticism that there wasn't enough reporting early on about Biden's cognitive issues. Outlets have been accused of, you know, sane washing or downplaying Trump's behavior. You've interviewed him more times than anybody I get to talk to on the regular. Where do you see room for improvement in our coverage? I mean, well, some of it was good. Some of it was not. I mean, my posture always is be aggressive and then be more aggressive and then be more aggressive

to find out actually what happened in this book. You go to the room. There are quotes from documents, from firsthand witnesses. And so you see not a laundered version of history, but an unlaundered version of history. but an unlaundered version of history. Before I let you go, I want to ask about the opening scene in your book. You start with a story about Trump that dates back to 1989. You and your friend and colleague, Carl Bernstein,

met him at a party, and you wind up interviewing him at his insistence. You joked with Trump about that, called it the lost tape over the years, but you actually found it. Can you just tell us, when you did revisit that conversation in 2024, called it the lost tape over the years, but you actually found it. Can you just tell us when you did revisit that conversation in 2024 what it revealed to you? Yes, and it opens the book because it's Carl Bernstein and I who worked on the Watergate story. Of course. Interviewing Trump before, and Trump's just a real estate king in New York City.

He's not in politics. He's got nothing to do with politics. And quite frankly, Carl's insistence, we have to let's let's talk to this guy, Trump, who's interesting. And Trump reveals his whole mode of operation, what he believes. You really, it's the origin, the seed of Trumpism. And Trump says that you don't fold, that it's important you learn not to fold in the way to deal with people. And just outright at this time says, you either be a killer, or you treat them with what he calls candy, killer or candy, or both. And there it is. It again reminds, it certainly reminded myself and Carl Bernstein that you now see Trump. He hasn't changed. Well, listen, thank you for the book. And thank you for, as always, for your reporting. And thank you for making time to speak with us today. It's been really nice to chat with you.

Thank you, sir. Bob Woodward is a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter and author. His latest book is called War. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.