The Current - Boys falling behind in Canadian schools

Episode Date: May 14, 2026

A new report out of Quebec is raising the alarm about a boy “crisis” in schools. Matt Galloway speaks with a mom of a six year old boy, elementary school teacher Jason Ashmore,  and University of Montreal professor Catherine Haeck on what’s going on in classrooms and what the long-term consequences could be.

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The new report from Quebec is raising the alarm about boys in school, and the numbers are stark. The high school dropout rate for boys in that province is 27.1% compared to about 19.9% for girls. On standardized French tests, boys trail by double digits, and boys are diagnosed with learning disabilities at a much higher rate than girls. In a moment, we'll hear about what's behind the widening gap between girls and boys, but first I'm joined by Jessica Sabatini. She's a mother of three girls and one boy, six-year-old Enzo. She's also an elementary school teacher, and she's in Montreal. Jessica, good morning. Morning.

How are you? I'm well, thanks. Tell me about Enzo and what school looks like for him. So Enzo is a very sweet, quiet, goofy boy who wants to have fun and, you know, be a six-year-old boy. school is a lot of having a pencil in your hand and a paper in front of you at your desk and doing a worksheet at a lot of his day and that can be really challenging because he's a six-year-old boy with energy. What doesn't work for a kid like Enzo in that setup?

I think it's the stationaryness. I think that really impacts their ability to focus. Inful disclosure, Enzo's doing fine. Academically, he is fine. But it is, it takes a lot of self-regulation, focus, and energy for a six-year-old boy to sit still at a desk for that amount of time in a day. We don't even ask adults to do it that much. There are obviously a lot of six-year-old girls who have tons of energy as well and want to get up and get moving around. do you think is different for boys? I think there's an impulse control that's different for boys.

I think girls are a little bit better. This is very broad stroke, but a little bit better at adhering to a social construct. They're a little bit more swayed by the outside pressure than I think a boy is. I think girls, again, in broad strokes, are a bit better at controlling those impulses than boys are because we know that their brains are hardwired differently. We know that there are developmental differences between these two. And again, this is very broad strokes. But we kind of have to look at this in broad strokes

when we're getting numbers that we're getting with this report. What are you worried about when it comes to what Enzo's experience in school is doing to him? I'm concerned for him, and I'm concerned for all. all the other boys, that they're being told they don't fit. They're being told that this is the box. And if they would like to be successful, this is the box they have to fit in. Is that your sense as to how he feels in school, that he doesn't fit in that box? A little bit.

Yeah, he's hard, right? He's still young. He's grade one. But a little bit. Yeah, he's very quiet. School is not meant for introverts. So he doesn't fit that box. He has energy and school is meant for people who can sit still for a long period of time and focus,

especially the way school is structured in Quebec with the heaviness of the curriculum and the content-driven manner in which the curriculum is written. It just doesn't fit. And so to constantly be told, this is how it has to be and you have to have to be. fit it. And if you struggle to fit that, that's a pretty negative message to be given every day. You have an interesting perspective because you're a mom, but you're also a teacher. And you've taught in Quebec, but also in BC and Ontario, right? Yes. So what have you seen on how boys are doing in school? Boys have a hard time. It's a long, it is just a very long time to sit still.

I remember when I taught in BC, I was teaching grade two. One year, I had one little boy who just was, he was very sweet, but he was just packed with energy. And so we just had to build in moving. If that meant he could do his work on the floor because he could be sprawled out, that was fine. If that meant having him stand at his desk, that was fine. It was giving them the breaks to get up and move in between math and writing or math and reading, just giving them those breaks. So I don't even think some of this has to be a major revolution. I think it comes down to awareness and giving teachers tools that kind of show them how they can work this into what they're already doing. I'm going to talk more about this with a teacher,

just a moment. But before I let you go, just two quick things. One is, as you said, Enzo is just at the very beginning of his life in school. What are you worried about if nothing changes? in the classroom? I'm worried that he's going to develop a really bad sense of self and that he's going to feel like he cannot be successful because right, I have older children. I can see where this is going. I know where the demands are going. I know where the workload is going. I know where the expectations are going. And to just, I worry that it's going to be communicated to him that he does not and therefore cannot be successful. Are you encouraged just finally that people are talking about this?

This is a tricky subject. I am. I am actually quite surprised at the feedback I have got from when it was discussed on the national and in print and the video how many people have reached out and seemed to be hit with this. I think it was one of those unspoken things that parents just sort of. thought this is just the way it is. And I've all just been feeling bad about it privately. I'm really glad to talk to you about this. Thanks for doing this. And it's good to speak with you.

Thanks so much for having me. Jessica Sabatini is a mother and elementary school teacher and she was in Montreal. Jason Ashmore has been an elementary and middle school teacher for more than 20 years. He teaches grade 6 in Edmonton. Jason, good morning to you. Good morning. How are you? What are you seeing in your classroom when it comes to how boys are doing? Similar to what Jessica was just speaking on in terms of the, you know, busyness asking kids to sit for for long periods of time and do work doesn't work for everybody. You know, I might, I don't want to say a different teacher, but I've always kind of thought of teaching outside of the box.

So I have the alternative seating so that kids can move around. There are different seats than just the, you know, desk and chair. You know, I've had bikes where kids can pedal on a stationary bike while doing work. They can stand up. They can be on the floor. They can be kind of everywhere. And, you know, I kind of came up, not really came up with the idea, but I really went with the idea when I was trying to plan for teaching kids

and I was like spread out on my dining room table and going, why am I asking kids to work on such a small desk when I am using a rather large surface myself? One of the things that came out in that report from Quebec was that boys are, I mean, the evidence shows the boys are falling behind, the higher dropout rate but also lower scores on standardized tests and what happens. have you. And there might be an assumption that, well, they'll just catch up, that this is a moment in time and that they'll close that gap down the line. What happens when, when boys fall behind in school? Well, in my experience, the kids, like particularly boys, I guess, who fall

behind sometimes can have those behavioral moments where they become more vocal. The frustration comes out differently. What does that look like? Sometimes there's like ripping of paper, throwing of materials, depending upon how they handle their own emotions, you know, has been different. I've had desks flipped, you know, books throwing. We've had to evacuate rooms because of, you know,

disregulation, you know, and it is because I think that when they fall behind, that, you know, there is this assumption that they will kind of catch up. But school is one of those things where one year leads to the next, which leads to the next, which leads to the next, which leads to the next. And you can't exactly be, you know, catching everybody up, especially as you get into the higher grades. How do boys internalize that? I mean, one of the things that Jessica was worried about was that her son, if this were to continue, her son would feel like he doesn't fit in in some ways in that box. I say it definitely, kids know, and they know early on.

I had a grade 9 boy who, you know, registering for high school, came to me and asked me what these other levels meant because he wasn't going to be with his friends. And I had to explain to him that the group of kids that he'd been with for the last 10 years, He was not taking the same level of academics as that group. And he told me that he had known all along that he couldn't read, couldn't write,

and that school kind of really wasn't for him. And it was like this moment where I'm looking at a, you know, 15-year-old who's in tears in my classroom. And it is something that we probably could have dealt with, you know, 10 years ago and maybe set him up for success. later on down the road. Last word to you, which is what's at stake if we don't, we want everyone to succeed,

but if boys are falling behind, what's at stake if we don't help boys thrive in school? I think we're looking at a harder road as a society. You know, there's lots of research that will kind of show you the connection between success in school and, you know, the prison system, the homelessness, all of those factors. So I think, you know, we need to make sure that we are, in fact, you know,

finding ways so that boys, girls, all learners can succeed. And if that means restructuring the way school is taught and run and how heavy the curriculums are across this country, especially in the earlier grades, you have to have a strong foundation in order to build a house, you know, it's not, there's no, I don't think there's a magic tool that can be, you know, waived and everything is fixed. I just think that, you know, kids need to have more movement and fun and to try different things, I guess.

I don't know if there's a way to make it all magically happen. Sounds like you're trying to do that in your classroom. Jason, good to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Jason Ashmore is an elementary school teacher. He was in Edmonton. Does it feel like the busyness of life makes it impossible to find any time for yourself? I'm Annie Bender, a producer at Ideas, a podcast where we explore all kinds of ideas that shape our world. We're not a self-help podcast, but we do believe in slowing down.

So you can reclaim your time to enjoy award-winning stories. telling. Think of ideas as self-care for the curious mind. Find and follow us wherever you get your podcasts. Catherine Hack is a professor at the University of Quebec in Montreal who studies economics and early childhood education and development. She's in Montreal this morning. Catherine, good morning to you. Good morning. This report says that boys are systematically disadvantaged in the Quebec education system. What we're hearing is perhaps this is being seen across the country as well. From your perspective, what's going on in the classroom that's not working? Well, if we think about the gap between boys and girls, it starts even before they

enter the classroom. So it's a problem that emerges early on, and that's when they enter school, teachers face already kids that are different. And this difference, since we rarely talk about it that early, we know, we all know about the graduation rate in high school being different for boys and girls, but we rarely talk about the fact that as early as four or five years old, we see a gap already. So if we're not conscious about that gap and we don't treat it as soon as it emerges, then it's hard to make sure that boys and girls succeed equally. So in the school system, what we need to realize is that boys and girls are different

and we need to act differently or bring in different tools to make sure that both groups succeed equally. Jessica said in some ways among parents this is an unspoken thing. The people have understood this for a long time, not just researchers, but parents have understood this for a long time. But it's just been this unspoken thing. Do you understand where she's coming from there? Well, part of it, I mean, we've been talking about the gap between boys and girls in high school graduation rate for decades. And nothing has really changed.

But the fact that we're talking about that it emerges early, that it has impact in post-secondary education as well, that it's everywhere. I think that's a bit newer and that maybe it's hard to take. talk about it because on the labor market, men are still earning more than women. So in a sense, some people will say, well, it doesn't matter because later on it gets all fixed. But these are different generations. So we cannot assume that what is now in the labor market will be true also for kids who are five years old. There's also been a conversation. We've talked about on this program before that there are some people who believe that if you are talking about the fact that boys might be failing, falling behind.

To your point, you aren't talking about the fact that there are still gaps in the labor market and other parts of society and that you can't talk about one without disadvantaging the other. How do you address that? Well, I actually do research on boat myself, and I think they're both important, but fixing an inequality in the labor market, the way to fix this is not to have boys falling behind in school. So you don't fix an inequality problem by creating another inequality problems.

So they're both different. They're related, but they're different. And both group need to feel like they belong in both the labor market and the education system. So I don't think you can talk about both and they're both relevant and they both need to be addressed. How do you change this? Jason talked about the tools that he is using within his classroom. And Jessica was talking about what she wants to see in classrooms as well. What needs to change so that schools work for boys and girls understanding that they may learn differently?

Yeah, I think both Jessica and Jason had good points. I think it starts with having the right teaching approaches. There are teaching approaches that work better than others. And when we look at different school boards in Quebec, for example, but I'm sure it's true also across Canada, there are school boards that are where boys and girls don't have as big a gap. So in these school boards, we know that they're doing something different. So we need to study what they're doing and make sure that everyone knows about what works. What are they doing?

Well, from one of the school board I talk with, one of the things they're doing is using explicit teaching. So they really teach concept explicitly. So that makes it more obvious and it's easier to learn. And they also have intervention in the behavioral, in the way kids behave. And again, they're really explicitly teaching what are the right behavior in which context and everything. And due to these changes, they've seen big progress for boys. So there are ways to help them. And I'm sure there are ways we don't know yet, but we could discover through research and through talking with teachers who know and have the experience.

What about the tactics that Jason's employing, letting kids move around, understanding that just sitting at a desk with a piece of paper and a pencil for hours on end perhaps is not the. the way to create a learning environment, particularly if you have a big bag of energy that you're trying to burn off? Yeah, I think it's one way. And I think, I mean, in many classrooms, they have these adaptations, if you want. Maybe they're not used in the right way. Maybe there are a better way to use the fact that you can move and stuff. So I'm not a researcher in that specific domain, but I think there's definitely something there that need to be explored. you think is at stake here? What are the implications if boys continue to struggle like this at school? Catherine talked a bit about that, or excuse me, Jessica talked a little bit about that in terms

of what she was concerned about with ENSA. But for you, what are the implications that you see here? Well, they're huge. If you think about Canada, we have 65,000 less men graduating every year from university than women. So we're missing 65,000 highly educated men in the labor market. So there are huge economic consequences to that. They're for the whole society, but they're for the people themselves. So education brings you not only a better income, but it also allows you to have often related to better health, longevity, being able to defend yourself as a citizen, know you're right.

So there are a lot of consequences both for the society and for the person itself. As I said to Jessica, and she hinted at this as well, that this is a true. tricky subject to talk about, in part because, as you've said, about the reluctance of some people to raise this. If you're a parent, and this sounds familiar, do you have a piece of advice for them? Well, I think that what people need to do is work on aspiration, making sure boys understand that they do fit and that they are, they can go to post-secondary education if they want to. I mean, some people will choose not to, and that's fine. My goal is not that everyone goes to post-secondary education, but my goal is that men have the same ability to go if they want to. If they choose

not to, it's different, but if you're forced into a job that you don't want to do, it's not the same. So just making sure that boys know that they belong as much as girls, that they also can pursue higher education if they want to, and that we will bring them the tools that they need to. Catherine, I'm really glad to talk to you about this. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Bye. Bye. Catherine Hack is a professor at the University of Quebec and Montreal specializes in economics and early childhood education in development. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon.

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