The Current - Brazil wants to drill for oil AND cut emissions

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

As COP30 plays out in Belém, Brazil is trying to present itself as a climate leader while also moving ahead with a new offshore oil project. CBC’s Susan Ormiston has been on the ground in the Amazon and inside the conference halls. She tells us why this decision has hit such a nerve, what she heard from Indigenous leaders who fear what’s coming, and why others in the region see the project as a long-overdue opportunity.

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Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. Along Brazil's Amazon coast, hope and uncertainty sits side by side. A new offshore oil frontier has been greenlit, far out in the Atlantic, but close enough to draw strong reactions on land. And for some communities, this represents long-promised jobs, investment, the possibility of a brighter economic future. For others, including indigenous leaders and environmental advocates, it raises real questions about how this fits in with Brazil's broader climate ambitions, and that tension is shaping conversations inside the COP 30 meetings in Berlin, Brazil. Susan Ormiston is the CBC's international climate correspondent. She is in Berlin. Susan, good morning.

Good morning, Matt. You have been in the Amazon and a COP 30 reporting for us. Tell me about this tension and how this is all playing between folks who are hoping to address climate change and this new oil exploration. Yeah, I mean, it was just before the world's loudest climate voices came

here to Belen for the conference. And Brazil made this controversial decision granting approval to a state-owned oil company Petrobras to finally drill and this is an exploratory well but it's offshore the Amazonian coast. It's an area called

Fosdo's Amazon's Basin. And so there was a drill ship off the coast waiting for this, about 170 kilometers. And as soon as Petrobras got its approvals, it immediately started operating here, exploring the size of deposits. So here we have Brazil hosting the climate talks in the Amazon and the president, commonly known as Lula, urging all countries to find a path to transition away from oil and gas, while his country is exploring a new oil frontier. So not hard to see, Matt, why that raised a lot of eyebrows and voices. How much oil are we talking about that might sit in these reserves? Yeah, could be vast. I mean, depending on what boundaries you're talking about, in the equatorial margin around there,

it's 30 billion barrels of recoverable oil estimated. And really, in Fos de de Amazonis, it's about half that. And important to know that last summer, Brazil granted 19 more oil blocks in this long. larger area, not just to Petrobras, but also to Chevron and a Chinese consortium. So lots of interest in the oil here. You spent time with indigenous leaders in the Amazon before you went to COP. What did you hear from them about what they're afraid of when it comes to exploring this oil frontier? Yeah, we traveled a thousand kilometers from Belan to a place called Oyapoke. It's really a frontier town. It's on the northern tip of Brazil, about 27,000

people. This area, this state, Amapa is one of the most disadvantaged economically regions in Brazil. It's a bit rough. But if the oil flows and if it comes, oil poike is poised to become a new oil town. And 20 minutes outside are these indigenous communities who live along the Karupi River accessible by riverboat. And many are struggling to get better education, better health services. They survive with the help of social assistance, and they're worried that oil coming to oil poque will bring this flash new money, inflated prices,

and a worst fear for them is a spill. Even 175 kilometers out, they worry that it could impact their land. So I spoke with Chief Wagner Carapuna. Because we know that the water, if we were to cause a leak, water has no border. It will contaminate our rivers, our streams,

our streams, our swamps, our fish, our hunting, the birds, everything will suffer. So the tension here is that there are people who also see this as a lifeline, right? Tell me more about that. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people in town we spoke to are very excited about Petrobras coming here. There's hotels and housing already popping up. The small local airport, which services the oil industry, is planning a rebuild. We spoke to a boat pilot, a woman who runs a cell phone kiosk along the riverfront. They're convinced that this will bring more prosperity. One estimate from the Brazilian government is tens of thousands of jobs in the oil in the larger area. The energy minister called it a winning ticket to help reduce poverty around here.

And this has been going on a long time, Matt. There's been a decade of search and research by Petrobras. And Wagner Fernandez is with the oil workers' union. And he called this moment a proud coronation of their work and says they've met all the environmental test to date. Every human action poses a risk to be environment. But we at Petrobras have the best containment and elite group in Latin America. We have drilled thousands of wells.

And so far, there have been no incidents. And even if it occurs, we have the full capacity. So that's a very different view, then, the one we have. heard earlier from the indigenous leader. How common is that in the region? Pretty prevalent. You know, several people described to me that Petrobras, the oil company, is more than an oil company. It's kind of embedded in Brazilian culture, a point of pride. Brazil is already the eighth largest producer of oil in the world. And President Lula has said, we can't know these riches are there and not exploit them. And I think a lot of people in

Oyapoke would agree with that. But there has been wide opposition. to extending oil production along this coast particularly. And some, you know, if it continues, potentially closer to the mouth of the Amazon River. Because, you know, at this climate conference, they're trying to cut harmful emissions that come from burning oil and gas and move towards new energy sources. So we spoke to Suwili Arugul. She's a well-known expert with the Climate Observatory in Brazil.

President Lula always says that they need money. for social policy, education policy, health policy. In his mind, the oil can be a good solution. The problem is that when he talks about that, they don't make the linkage to the climate crisis. They really only talk about economic perspective. It's very problematic. For me, it makes no sense.

So is there the possibility that that oil revenue could help float those social programs that Lula, the Brazilian president, has promised to the people? That's what the president is saying. I mean, it is a job generator. And also, you know, the money could be used to raise standards of living. And also, Matt, Brazil would export a good percentage of this oil. So that all brings in money to the government coffers. So square this. I mean, you have a message from the, from the, oil conglomer saying that it wants to open up this new oil reserve, and then you have the scientists who are saying that this is alarming and troubling to them. How does this all square out? Well, it's interesting because the Brazilian president says that revenues from this oil will be used to fund the energy transition, which he agrees is needed, to move away from oil towards renewables and clean energy sources. And we've heard shades of that same argument in our

country now. So interestingly, Lula came out in the first week of the conference to underscore that he was going to establish a new fund to do exactly that, maybe feeling the opposition and the heat, so to speak, at the climate talks. But to date, even with record oil production this year in Brazil, a small percentage has gone to funding cleaner energy sources. So that would have to really ramp up to be true. And here's the thing that, you know, the harmful emissions from burning fossil fuels. We know from scientists is really what's fueling our warming world. And they say you can't square drilling for more oil with reducing emissions at the scale they need to be reduced. So where does that leave Brazil? I mean, again, you have the impetus to expand offshore oil

exploration, but also the country wants to be a leader on climate change. Well, they can do both, and they are. I mean, President Lula and his longtime environmental minister in particular do have a long pedigree in climate fights. So they have these two tracks, and they do exist. They've tackled things like deforestation, slowing deforestation, which was really climbing under the former President Bolsonaro's era. And deforestation accounts for like 40% of emissions in Brazil. So the flip side of this coin, though, is that even as renewables are the fastest growing energy source globally, the world still needs oil and gas. And demand will continue over the next two decades according to the International Energy Agency.

So we spoke to Eloiseu, a well-known researcher and a director at the Brazilian government's energy agency. So it is important to talk about oil and gas, because this industry will have to be part of the solution. We will have to understand how do we transition, how to make the production more sustainable while we cannot abandon hydrocarbons altogether. And I do understand it's hard to not see it as an incoherent because usually we like things simple. So we like black and white.

But in the real world, the world is made of shades of gray. Interesting. Just finally, Susan, I mean, you have all of this happening at a time when Brazil is hosting the UN Climate Conference, COP 30. So what is this fight in that country tell us about COP more broadly? Well, it tells us that the COP conferences are confronting all these inconsistencies, these contradictions in trying to find a better way out of our climate crisis. It makes it harder, though, to build on what was promised two years ago with the climate talks in Dubai, and that is making good on a promise to transition away from oil and gas that was agreed to by nearly 200 countries, but not much has happened since. So at this conference, they're trying to find a pathway to do this, but you have all these competing interests.

And we're also hearing that, you know, we've missed our emissions targets and that we've blown through the sort of 1.5 degree of warming that was pledged back 10 years ago in Paris. So there's some very dire notes here, but they are trying to work through these problems. And this Brazilian decision really brings it all. to the four, really. Those are the shades of gray that we just heard about. Susan, thank you very much for this. You're welcome. Susan Ormiston is the CBC's climate correspondent. She was in

Belen, Brazil. For more CBC podcasts, go to cBC.ca.ca slash podcasts.