The Current - Calls for inquiry into Indigenous people killed by police

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

Ten Indigenous people have been killed during interactions with police since August, prompting calls for a national inquiry. Matt Galloway talks to Nadalie Saddleback, whose 15-year-old grandson Hoss Lightning was fatally shot by the RCMP three months ago. 

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. Since August, 10 Indigenous people have been killed during interactions with police in this country. John Wells was 42 when he died after Calgary police restrained him after an altercation at a hotel. Police had him face down on the floor in handcuffs and leg restraints and with a spit hood on.

Approximately seven minutes later, John Wells was dead. He was unarmed. The Alberta Serious Incident Response Team is investigating his death. His family wants answers and accountability. This is his sister, Leslie Wells. His last words being, I don't want to die, you know, and knowing that from this report, he was complying and there was nowhere did it say that he was being violent. To make him out to be this very violent person that the end result had to be death. It was just so maddening. Haas Lightning was 15 years old when he was fatally shot by the RCMP in August.

He'd called 911 for help that day and told a dispatcher he was being followed by people trying to kill him. An hour later, he ended up in a confrontation with two RCMP officers in a field in Wetaskiwin, Alberta, 60 kilometers south of Edmonton. That incident is also currently under investigation by the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team. Natalie Saddleback is Haas Lightning's grandmother and she is in Wetaskiwin, Alberta. Natalie, good morning. Good morning. I'm sorry for your loss.

Thank you. Can you tell me a little bit about Haas and who he was? He was special to me, his grandma. He was phoning me daily, you know, just to chat with me, see how I was. Because, you know, I had went through surgery earlier in the year. So he was always checking up on me and telling me he loved me. He was sweet that way. Can you take me back to the night of the 30th of August?

What was happening then? Well, earlier that day, I had him here. And later that evening, I want to say maybe 10.30 or so, he come and said goodnight to me and said I love you. He says, I'm going to go find my mom. And I assumed his mom was next door, which is not that far away, less than a five minute walk. So I just said, okay, I'll see you tomorrow. Good night. Love you. And then woke up next morning and I went to work and noticed right away after I got dressed, picked up my phone and realized I was missing all these calls and texts from him. And

I just got on the phone right away, dialing his number, no call, no answer. So, and I assumed, you know, he's with his mom next door. He's okay. So I went about my day at work and I got up, I came home about 3.30. I had to come and pick up something from my house here. And I was going to go right back to work when I got a call. And she goes, okay, there's someone that wants to see you here. So when I got home, it turned out to be a cert. Come to my truck, started talking to me right away about there was an incident last night involving my grandson, Haas. And when he showed me, I asked him what happened.

And he basically told me that he was killed in Wetaskwin. And I don't remember all the details of everything that happened in that moment, but I remember looking at his picture on his phone and just breaking down. ACERT is the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team. That's the folks who are investigating this. Yes. It's been less than 90 days, and it's still so fresh, you know? It was like a big blur. It's like less than 90 days, and it's still so fresh, you know? It was like a big blur.

It's like a bad dream. When you saw Haas, what was his mental health like? What sort of state was he in when you saw him? I can tell you he did have some mental issues going on. He was in care. He was in a temporary care because of back in October he was feeling suicidal you know things are not going the way they should be going with his home his mother and he was just going through a whole lot of issues

and I was going through my cancer scare and then my operation and I really thought him being in the spot he was he would be safe you know he'd get that counseling he'd get the schooling that he should have been in he always wanted to come home and home to him was here with me. What do you want to come out of this investigation that that ACERT is involved in? my questions haven't even been answered as to, well, where's this officer? Is he on leave? Did he resign? Was he able to just go to work the next day and carry on with his life? Well, he took my grandsons. How do you want Haas to be remembered? I want him to be remembered as a young, he wasn't a child, he was a youth, you know, that reached out for help and he didn't get it the way he should have.

And that, even that, I kind of blame myself because at a young age, them living in the city, I used to, you know, if anything goes wrong, you call the police. You know, I feel like I taught them that. And for this to happen, it was just, it's heartbreaking. It's still, a lot of pain is still here. of pain is still here. And I guess remember him as the friendly boy and that got his life taken way too soon. I really do appreciate you talking to us and take care of yourself. Okay. Thank you.

Natalie Saddleback is Haas Lightning's grandmother. She is in Wetaskiwin, Alberta. In a statement, an RCMP spokesperson said the force expresses its sincerest condolences to those impacted by these recent tragedies and said they can't comment on individual cases because they are currently being investigated by independent agencies like the Alberta Serious Incident Response Team. Cindy Woodhouse-Nepanak is the Assembly of First Nations National Chief. National Chief, good morning to you. Good morning. Ten Indigenous people are dead in this country after altercations with police. How do you make sense of that number?

Look, it's one too many. My condolences go out to the mother and the grandmother who we just heard from, you know, the Wells family and as well Haas's family. And of course, we've seen the twins in northern Canada last week. And it's just there's just too many deaths in this country of First Nations and Inuit people and Indigenous people. And I know that we've been experiencing a lot of strong emotions these past few months as the news has been coming out about First Nations Committee, we passed a resolution that supports the family's calls for a public inquiry into the incident that caused John Wells' death and for a number of legislative and policy reform. It's vitally important that we continue to fight for more First Nations police service to keep our community safe. say First Nations police services have demonstrated for decades that it is an essential service that provides the health and well-being of First Nations who they serve. I think I'll also say

that when we have First Nations police services, statistics show, compared to other mainstream, so-called mainstream entities, they don't kill First Nations people. And so we need to begin to do the critical work of protecting First Nations men and boys. We also must address the gaps in the justice system that place them at risk. What do you think is going on here? I mean, Haas Lightnings, there's a family member of his who had said that in some ways police don't need to reach for the gun as quickly as they are when it comes to 10 indigenous people dead in this short period of time because of these interactions with police what do you think is going on you know what it's uh racism it's it's

a whole it's a whole lot of things we've seen it in the missing and murder indigenous women and girls report um we've also at the afm we we've also passed a resolution because we want to work, we are calling on the government to establish a working group to address also the missing and murdered Indigenous men and boys. Through this resolution, we are advocating for equitable resources for missing and murdered Indigenous men and boys. So we've got the MMIWG report, which hasn't been touched. And I think that too many times, again, we focus on this work. We haven't done one for our men and boys,

and we have to get down to get that work done. We need that working group established. And the Assembly of First Nations, we are committed to advocating for reforms that prioritize safety and justice for First Nations, as directed by First Nations in the assemblies. So this includes reforming failing systems and replacing them with structures that serve and protect First Nations people. It's too many times on top of that, too many enforcement people that kill, they get a slap on the wrist. And yet we have people that are murdered 10 people that have been murdered and maybe they don't call it that themselves i was gonna say you're using that word very deliberately calling saying that these people have been murdered well they've been

murdered right we we it's it's it's awful to do that to people can you imagine how these family we've just heard from the families how they're feeling. And when you kill someone, I don't know what else you're going to call it. Murder is murder. You met with the public safety minister, Dominic LeBlanc, in September. What did you tell him? Well, we had agreed to a working group because we have to start figuring out what's happening in this country. And shining a light on some of these issues. And how do we stop this from happening, these murders from happening?

It's just too many times. You can't just do that to people, anybody. Any Canadian shouldn't have to go through that, but it's alarming when it's First Nations people over and over and over again. I don't hear this happening to other people in this country nor do I want to. We asked to speak with Dominic LeBlanc. I don't hear this happening to other people in this country, nor do I want to. We asked to speak with Dominic LeBlanc. He wasn't available, but a spokesperson sent us a statement that reads, in part, since 2018, we, being the federal government, have invested significantly to bolster the First Nations and Inuit policing program. We also remain committed to introducing

legislation recognizing First Nations police services as essential services. Are you satisfied with what the federal government has done thus far? Well, no, absolutely not. I was with the First Nations Police Association last week, and they don't have a lot. They're trying their best. They used to have 56 forces. They're now down to 34. Obviously, there's a push down for First Nations policing services.

There's a, you know, and there's, and so, so i mean we have a lot of work to do in this country it's so disheartening to see that and then um we've called you know we have a resolution as well that calls on for uh you know the to push for essential service we don't even have that yet and to push for making sure that we talk about jurisdiction and move towards that and so i know that these aren't easy conversations to have but you know when we look at things like the truth and reconciliation report the miwg report the um you know the late marie sinkler who we just who just left us uh days ago a lot of his work on the aboriginal justice inquiry like i encourage all canadians and to read all of these reports and walk with

us and help us in, in our fight for, for justice and equality in our, in our own country. And we, you know, we need the support and help of Canadians. I'll let you go. But just finally, if the change that you're calling for doesn't happen, what do you think is at stake? Again, you are, these incidents are being investigated by investigating forces, but you're already, you're deliberately saying and intentionally saying

that these are murders. So if the change doesn't happen, what do you think is at stake? Well, then there'll be more murders on First Nations people. I don't know how else to put it. When you kill someone, you're murdering someone, right? I don't know what, like, you can't justify that. How can you justify that, doing that to somebody? National Chief, we'll leave it there.

I'm glad to have you as part of this conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you. Cindy Woodhouse-Naponek as the Assembly of First Nations National Chief. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell.

I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Kent Roach is a professor of law at the University of Toronto, author of Canadian Policing, Why and How It Must Change. Kent, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt.

What do you make of what you've heard from the National Chief? It must change. Kent, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. What do you make of what you've heard from the National Chief? Well, I mean, this is a problem that has been happening for way too long. So, I mean, let's think if 10 relatives of the cabinet had died since August. I think we would see more movement than we're seeing now. What does it tell you about the state of policing? I ask you this as somebody who has studied this for years. The state of policing in this country when it comes to interacting with Indigenous communities in particular?

where people who are in crisis are dying unnecessarily. And unfortunately, the federal minister seems to say, well, we can just rely upon the police fixing their own house. But I think it's too late for that. And of course, four of these cases involve the RCMP. So that's the federal government's own house. The national chief, when asked what was going on more broadly when it came to these 10 cases, not the specifics, but broadly, said in part this is about racism. Yes, I mean, I think that that is right. It's not an accident that 10 people, I mean,

six people died over 11 days right as we were kind of transitioning out of summer. It's just horrific. And of course, we've seen this with Rodney Levy, Chantal Moore, and others. So in BC, they have been calling for an inquiry since 2022. From 2013 to 2017, 127 people died in police custody. Almost 30% of those people are Indigenous. So this is a national crisis. Sorry, continue. Go ahead. No, no, I was just saying Australia, way back in 1991, did a national inquiry. And I think some of the problem here is the old federal-provincial

runaround that I think it's, you know, an inquiry would need both levels of government. But we can do that. We saw that with the Mass Casualty Commission. So why this isn't being treated as the mass casualty event was being treated, I think is, you know, I think we know the answer to that. Haas Lightning's grandmother says that Haas was in mental distress before he was shot by police. There are conversations that are happening broadly across this country around police and ways to change police interaction with those who may be in mental distress. Perhaps it's not a police force that arise. Perhaps it's a mobile crisis intervention team, for example. Is that something that needs to be taken into consideration here? Absolutely. I mean, there is mobile health on Metascois. There was in the Rodney Levy case,

but they're under-resourced. We seem to always find the money for the police, but when we have innovations that can actually avoid these, they're always running on, you know, two inadequate funds that have to be renewed every year. And so often the mental health nurses and other people just don't have the resources to get there to help these people. And, you know, again, this is not a good result for the police. The police that were involved with this, I'm sure, I mean, they're obviously not suffering the way that the families are, but I don't think that they just walk away from this. And of course, this builds up worse relations between Indigenous people and the police, both based on fear, both based on lack of understanding. And so something has to change.

What would just finally, what would be different if, for example, there were more First Nations police services, Indigenous-led forces? What would that do in the communities, do you think? I think it would help. I mean, I agree with the Grand Chief that their record is best, but I also think that the feds and the provinces have to rethink policing. So we don't just want Indigenous police services. We want Indigenous health services in Indigenous mentoring, all of the things that Haas Lightning Saddleback's grandmother was talking about. She ended in saying he was a 15-year-old who needed

help. That help was not likely to come from the RCMP, but what did come from the RCMP was the end of a 15-year-old's life. Are you confident that, just finally and briefly, that there is the momentum for that change? I mean, these aren't numbers, these are people. No, I mean, unfortunately, I'm not confident. Most of these deaths occurred a couple of months ago before the weather got cold. And I come back to if there were 10 relatives of cabinet ministers

that were killed in this way, what would we be doing? We would not be doing nothing, which is more or less what we're doing now. Kent, good to talk to you again. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Kent Roach is a professor of law at the University of Toronto.