The Current - Canada recognizes the state of Palestine

Episode Date: September 22, 2025

As the 80th UNGA gets underway, Canada is among a number of nations that will recognize Palestine and the need for a two State solution. We speak with Canada's Ambassador to the United Nations, Bob Rae.

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War and climate action will dominate the agenda, as well as the question of statehood. The Assembly will now take a decision on draft resolution entitled Endorsement of the New York Declaration on the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine and the implementation of the two-state solution. That was the United Nations General Assembly President Anelena Baerbach. Earlier this month, the majority of General Assembly backed a resolution for Palestinian statehood. Yesterday, Canada announced it would do the same. Bob Ray is Canada's ambassador to the United Nations. Ambassador Ray, good morning. Good morning, Matt.

Why is now the time for Canada to recognize a Palestinian state? Well, I think the logic of Canada's position has been that we supported the the concept of statehood for Palestine, and obviously we have representation in Ramallah. We've been engaged with the Palestinian Authority since it was first set up after the Oslo Accords in 1993. So the challenge, however, has been that we said we would complete the recognition once a peace settlement was signed with Israel. But now it's become very clear to everyone that the government of Israel at the present time has no intention of negotiating a two-state solution at the present time. And so we thought it was important for us to make it very clear that our position since 1947 of two states for two peoples was one that now required us to take this additional step, which we've done in. in cooperation with a number of countries with whom we've had a long relationship,

the UK, France, and others. And I think it's a decision that the prime minister himself very much wanted to make. And that's what's happened. It comes with conditions. The Palestinian Authority has to hold elections next year in which Hamas plays no part. It has to demilitarize the Palestinian state. The statement from the prime minister also says that Hamas has to release all of the hostages. Those are, I think, if we're being honest, conditions that seem far off, at least at this moment.

I'm not sure I describe them as conditions. I think what we're saying is we are recognizing a state, the state of Palestine, and we're going to continue to engage with the Palestinian authority. But it needs to do certain things. Not just they need to do certain things. Israel needs to do certain things. But that doesn't affect our recognition. The recognition has been made. It was signed yesterday by the prime minister.

It's been made very clear. that's our position. What we're talking about is the fact that in order to go deeper and further with really helping the Palestinian state to rebuild, there are obviously a number of things that need to happen. And in order for us to do that, we have to have clearer and stronger relationships with the Palestinian Authority, which we're trying to continue to have. I guess the question is just a lot of this. Sorry, continue. Go ahead. Just, I'm sorry, I'd mean to cut you off. A lot of what needs to happen, frankly, also depends on Israel.

And that's what makes this very difficult. No one is asking the Palestinian Authority to do things that simply can't do. But we are asking them to do some things that we know they can do and they will do. And so I think it's important for us to see this in a positive light that we're trying to make the steps that we need to make. But there's no hesitation in recognizing the state of Palestine and supporting Palestinian membership in the United Nations of the state of Palestine and continuing to work with them in a positive spirit. And that's the way in which we want to do it. Well, and that in some way speaks to the question that I was going to ask, which is, I mean, even David Lamy, the UK Foreign Secretary, the United Kingdom is also announcing recognition of Palestinian state. He says that this is not going to change anything on the ground.

What is this likely to achieve, do you think? Well, changing things on the ground requires several things. First of all, a ceasefire. There's a war ongoing. The IDF is in Gaza City. The planes are bombing the homes and apartments and places of work and everything else in Gaza. The destruction in Gaza, we thought was total, but apparently there's still more to be destroyed.

but what's happening is terrible. And one Israeli politician has said that a member of Lakut has said that the objective is to make Gaza uninhabitable. That's just not acceptable. Moving people out, forcible displacement, these are things that should never be done. And so that's all the more reason why we've been clear about recognizing the Palestinian state. But it's also important for us to recognize that, of course, there's a jury. journey that we need to get on. The hostages have to be released. There has to be a ceasefire.

There has to be a willingness to rebuild. But it's not just Gaza. The rights of people living in the West Bank have to be affirmed and have to be respected. And there has to be a clear recognition of the right of Israel to its security as well. And that's where we get into the importance of creating a culture of peace and of dialogue. I know it's seems very far off. But that has to be our objective, because we can't continue with a situation where people are simply not recognizing the legitimacy of the place of the other. There's got to be room for both. And that is something that needs to continue to be worked on. And so at this moment, do you honestly believe in the possibility of a two-state solution? Yes, I do. Why? Honestly,

because it's the most logical thing to do. When you look at the other alternatives, they're difficult to achieve as well and would not have the same level of political support as a two-state solution. So I think it's something that has to be brought back into the center of the picture, But you've got to ask yourself the question, well, if that doesn't happen, then what are you saying?

That there will never be full equality and full political rights for the Palestinian people. I mean, that's not acceptable. Are you saying that people would be moved out and expelled and forced to live somewhere else? That's not acceptable. That's completely unacceptable. Or are you saying that they would stay indefinitely where they are and have no political rights? That's equally unacceptable. So two states seems to be the logical thing to try to focus on.

And that's why so many countries have stuck with it and stuck with the necessity of two states. And that's been the consistent Canadian position since 1947. The UN's independent international commission of inquiry on the occupied Palestinian territory last week put out a report saying that the Israeli government has committed genocide against the Palestinians in Gaza. In his remarks, the prime minister said, that Israel in its sustained assault these are his words in Gaza has killed tens of thousands of civilians, displaced well over a million people, and caused a

devastating and preventable famine in violation of international law. Do you believe that what's happening in Gaza is a genocide? I think as a public official, it's not something I can just sort of roll that roll that off the end of my tongue for one simple reason. And that is that

as the system works now, it's up to the ICJ to make that determination, the International Court of Justice, and the recommendations of the Human Rights Tribunal, recommendations of others, the political statements that many people have made that are not legitimate, I think what the Prime Minister has said is important, and that is that enough is really happening, that it has to stop. We know it has to stop. What name is given to it is much less important than the fact that terrible things are happening and need to be stopped, And we understand fully our obligations is to draw attention to this and to do everything we can in our powers to make sure that it stops.

And I know that, you know, people say, well, what about this and what about additional steps? You say every possible step is being considered by the government of Canada as we look to see what more can we do to deal with this crisis. What do those steps include? We spoke with one of the commissioners of this UN agency last week. And their recommendations include arms embargo against Israel, but also. sanctions against Israel. Would the Canadian government consider sanctions against Israel? Well, first of all, let's deal with an arms and bargain. We've already introduced limitations on what kinds of weaponry we're able to provide to Israel. We've already made it

very clear that, yes, we're prepared to help Israel defend itself through the Iron Dome and other means, but we've also restricted the use of other weaponry. I'm not at liberty to say what else the government is considering, but what I just do want to say is the situation in Gaza is serious enough that we are all, and I say all, I mean all of the NATO countries and other countries with which we, who have serious relationships with Israel, we're all looking at what more can be done in order to achieve success. But we also don't, we want to do things that we think have a likelihood of having a positive impact on the conduct of the war and bringing it to an end. And nobody's sitting on their hands

at the moment. I can assure you, everybody is wrestling with what more can we do, what more needs to be done. And that includes doing everything we can to get to a ceasefire and get to a release of the hostages and get this thing back on a positive track. I'll let you go. But just finally, I mean, many of the nations of the world, the majority, will be at the UN this week for the General Assembly. They'll all be here. Do you believe the United Nations or any country's opinion matters, given that the U.S. can veto like it has in the past, does what we will see over the next few days in New York, is that going to have any material impact on what you've described happening right now in Gaza?

Well, Matt, whenever I listen to you on the radio, I always hear this very profound sense of skepticism about a whole variety of things. And I know that our interviews feature this. I can't afford to take that position. I'm somebody who has to try to find out where are the cracks that let the light in, as Leonard Cohen used to say. We really have to find a way to make things better. Is it going to be easy? No. have I given up hope? Absolutely not. Once you give up hope, you give up any opportunity to find solutions.

And that's my job. My job is to help find solutions. I hope we have the chance to talk again before you leave that job. In the meantime, Bob Ray, it's good to speak with you as always. Thank you, man. Good to talk to you. Bob Ray is Canada's ambassador to the United Nations. Hey, I'm Gavin Crawford from the podcast, Because News. It's a show where I ask comedians questions about the news of the week, and they try their best not to answer correctly. week we play a game called Two Truths and AI. Delve into some forgotten baseball slang as we cheer for the Jays, and I'll ask the panel, which entertainer is refusing to perform in America this year. Join me, Martha Chavez, Alice Moran, and Miguel Rivas, three comedians who are not worried about getting yoinked off the air because they made fun of the president. Get Because News, wherever you

get your podcast, which I'm presuming is here. Margaret Evans is the CBC's senior international correspondent. She's just returned from Israel and the occupied West Bank. Margaret, good morning to you. Hi, Matt. What have you heard from Palestinians about the growing number of states, including now Canada, that are recognizing a Palestinian state? There are some mixed feelings out there. And, you know, you would talk to people and you'd have asked them,

what will this mean for you? Will it make a difference? And sometimes you'd get people kind of, you know, not wanting to be insulting. They wanted to be polite and say, well, yes, thank you. But this feels late to us because, you know, we've been talking about the two-state solution for so long and then it was put in the corner and now it's being revived because Israel has been creating these facts on the ground as we're always talking about with the settlements.

On the other hand, you know, things are so dire in Gaza and in the West Bank, you know, many people don't want to talk about their problems because of what's happening in Gaza being so horrible. But it really has, you know, brutalized the Palestinians in the West Bank watching. this happening, they feel fragile. And so the recognition is important. It is for many people seen as a gesture of much welcome support at a time of trauma for them, even if they think it might not change things on the ground. We spoke with a man, Khalil Tafakchi, who is a settlement expert. He was actually one of the negotiators during the Oslo Peace Accords.

he's been watching the changes to the face of the West Bank over the years. And I had this conversation with him. Have a listen and give you a sense of what people are thinking and how they're feeling. They recognize Palestinian, but if you go to the field, you can't even. There is no state. So if I asked you, is there a point in Canada recognizing Palestine? What is your answer? The point, now it's very late, but something is bitter than nothing.

Do you think that there's any pressure that the outside world can bring to bear on the situation? In my opinion, I said the pressure will be now, not tomorrow. It will be now. Margaret, tell me more about the urgency that you hear in that clip. Yeah, I mean, he basically is saying that there isn't anything left to recognize physically. I mean, he's a geographer. He describes the West Bank as Swiss cheese. The changes in terms of the settlement roads, Palestinian communities increasingly fragmented. And of particular concern right now to Palestinians is the decision last month by Israel to expand a settlement called Malayadoumim on the outskirts of Jerusalem, to allow it to expand towards East Jerusalem. It's taking over this land area called E1.

It's significant because the Palestinians say it will cut. East Jerusalem, which they hope would one day be the capital of a Palestinian state off from the West Bank, and that it cuts basically this heartland of the Palestinian cities off, you know, from each other. So you couldn't go from Ramallah to Hebron or to Bethlehem easily. And so it's seen as sort of very symbolic of the changes on the ground, the facts on the ground, that Israel has created. And, of course, this is the settlement expansion that was approved by Bezalil Smotrich, the finance minister. He announced this decision with great fanfare and said, it will bury the idea of a Palestinian state. And that is the intention of the settlement and the settlements from their point of view.

And so do people, and it's not to exacerbate the skepticism that perhaps Ambassador Ray felt was at the heart of a question. but do people on the ground feel like what is going to happen in New York this week will have any impact on day-to-day life? A lot of people don't. And I think that there's a, you know, you can differentiate between the generation of Mr. Tufacchi, who, you know, was one of the negotiators during the Oslo Accords in the 1990s and the younger generation. I met one young woman, a journalism student, and I asked her about the two-state solution. And she said, nobody believed in the two-state solution anymore. You know, they sort of, when people talk about it, the Oslo process, it's seen as a failure. It didn't offer a horizon to young people where the older generation still trying to kind of figure it out.

But in terms of day-to-day life, I think that since October 7th, 2023, the occupation, living under the Israeli occupation has gotten so much tougher. And this last trip, the feeling of a settlement movement that has been absolutely, turbocharged was extraordinary to me. We were driving up and down the West Bank. We saw outpost everywhere. Those are these kind of encampments, usually manned by aggressive young men. I'm talking about hardline, you know, nationalist Jewish settlers. Not everybody living in settlements believes, you know, has an ideological bent. Some of them are there because it's cheaper to live in the settlements. But the people who are aggressive, who believe the land is theirs by God given right are everywhere. And they do have the backing of this government in terms of the

infrastructure that they're giving to not just the settlements, but the outposts too. It was really quite extraordinary. You've also been in and out of Israel since the war in Gaza began. What is the reaction in Israel to the recognition of a Palestinian state, both from members of the Knesset, but also just from regular Israelis that you would speak with? Well, I mean, that famously fractured Israeli political spectrum has been pretty unanimous for a change in condemning the recognition. And certainly many ordinary Israelis are worried about what the impact will be on the negotiations with Hamas, making it maybe more complicated to get the remaining hostages home. So whereas you've seen them being very hypercritical of the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin

Netanyahu up to now, because they want to him to accept the deal that's on the table, now they're saying, oh, to the international community, you're letting us down because it's going to be harder for us. The Israeli Prime Minister, of course, has said that it is a reward to terrorism, to Hamas. You know, it should be noted that Hamas has never supported a two-state solution. They don't accept Israel's right to exist. Unlike the Palestinian authorities, Fatah leadership, which does recognize Israel's right to exist, and backs and supports a two-state. solution. And I guess the argument goes that for some who support, and there aren't that many in

Israel who support the idea of the two-state solution, I think before October 7th, many Israelis believe the government line that you can manage this occupation. We don't have a partner for peace. But, you know, those who support the two-state solutions say it's really the best way to eradicate terrorism because you're dealing with the occupation itself, which is something that Palestinians say has been forgotten. People forget that there's an occupation that Israel has occupied Palestinian land for more than half a century now. Margaret, thank you very much for this. You're most welcome. Margaret Evans is the CBC's senior international correspondent. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon.

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