The Current - Carney’s plan to build big things

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Mark Carney promised to “build, baby, build” on the campaign trail. Today, he’s meeting with provincial and territorial premiers to discuss his plans to build big projects in this country, including by fast-tracking the processes to get them approved. We’ll talk about balancing the rights of Indigenous nations with the new government’s proposed plans — and why red tape isn’t the only hurdle holding up development.

We learned about Leo Schofield's fight for innocence in season one of Bone Valley. Now, he and author Gilbert King are back with season two. This time, they dig deeper into the history of the man who confessed to killing Leo's wife. Do I want to talk to him? Do I really forgive him? This is the man that murdered my wife, and I've been through hell on earth because of it. I'm Kathleen Goltar, and this week on Crime Story, how Leo Schofield chose to forgive the man who destroyed his life. Find Crime Story wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. Build, baby, build. That was Prime Minister Mark Carney's promise on the campaign trail. And now with the trade war with the US raging, the Prime Minister is promising to fast track major nation-building projects. We need to move on these nation-building projects. So projects that bring Canada together, projects that diversify our economy, projects that help us export to new markets and really move this economy forward. What we're going to do is fast track the approval so that the

country can get moving. Today Carney is meeting with the premiers in Saskatoon. He will brief them on his plan to speed up approvals and remove regulatory hurdles for big projects. The proposed legislation is called One Canadian Economy. It could be tabled as early as this week and the Prime Minister says he wants the legislation passed into law by Canada Day. Jay Kossla is executive director of economic and energy policy at the public policy forum. He co-wrote a recent report called Build Big Things, a playbook to turbocharge investment in major energy, critical minerals and infrastructure projects. Jay, good morning. Good morning, Matt.

Good to have you here. Why does Canada need to build big things? Well, I guess I would start at the 30,000 foot level. And really, our GDP per growth per capita, which is a key economic measure over the last 10 years, has ranked almost dead last in the OECD rankings, number 40 out of 41. And that is a marker that we should be able to do better on. The country is economically endowed with natural resources and unfortunately we're just not doing what we need to do to get there. The second and most important thing is what you said off the top. With Donald Trump's

terror factions, we're imperiled and at the end of the day, you know, we've been sitting complacent with our single market in the US, relying on it and not doing much about diversifying our assets. For those two reasons, the time is now to start to move our projects forward and to create better market conditions for our economic growth trajectory. I do think that Canada can do this and I feel like at the end of the day, we should think about this as mission critical going forward. Canadians need to get behind this. The prime minister is meeting with the

premiers today and asked them to come to the meeting with suggestions for big national projects. In your report, you talk about no regrets and no regrets national list of projects. What are no regrets projects? Well, there's several major projects that sit out there. In our report, we had a modelling outfit known as NavVius. Look at an inventory that Natural Resources Canada holds of 500 odd projects

that are sitting out there. And if we were to monetize all those 500 projects, we would boost our GDP by approximately 4.5%. That's huge. And so any one of those projects should be brought off the shelf, but examples that I can think of right off the top of my head, we are starting to export LNG through one project. To Asia, I think we should do a few more of those. I think the Ring of Fire has been often talked about. We've been talking about that for a decade

and not been able to move very many mines forward. So those are critical minerals. I think transmission lines east and west need to start to be built. We have very few of them and those could really help decarbonize our energy system. Let me ask you about the Ring of Fire. This is in Ontario.

It's this mineral rich region in the north of the province that people, to your point, have been talking about exploiting it feels like since the earth cooled. It's not been that long, but it's been a long time since people have been talking about this. Have a listen to the Premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, talking about, this is a two different events this spring, his frustrations when it comes to how long it takes

to make big projects happen in his province. We have upwards to a trillion dollars in the ring of fire and we aren't sitting around for the next 20, 30 years to get that out. Let's not take three or four years to get a permit. Let's not put the barriers up because there's a grasshopper in a field and everyone has to stop and wait for that grasshopper.

It's ridiculous. So he has proposed this Bill 5, the Protect Ontario by Unleashing Our Economy Act. And I'll ask you about the bill in a few moments, but is there a grain of truth to what he is saying there that these big projects can take so long because of environmental regulations and other consultations that have to be followed through?

Thanks, Matt, great question. I'm gonna be a bit technical in my response. I can say clearly that the regulatory system does get in the way from time to time, but our report argues that there's actually four key components, four key variables that need to come together for any project to be successful in this country and to be unlocked.

And when we say unlocked, we mean that they need to hit what's called final investment decision. Companies, that's a decision that boards take to move these big projects forward, and it's not taken lightly. It's a go or no go. And to do that, you need to get the financing right, the regulatory system right, the Indigenous economic participation and consultation right, and then the enabling infrastructure around

those projects. Those are four things that need to come together. And I would say in the ring of fire, what's been lacking, Premier Ford's talking about the regulatory piece. Yeah, absolutely. That can stall things. But there are ways to mitigate the environmental costs of these things. The financing to me is the other big one.

And governments, I hope, are going to start to work in partnership with the private sector on that. In this particular case, infrastructure that needs to be built. There's a road up there that isn't talked about for, like you said, time immem memorial between governments and they're not working on it to get that done.

If you don't have that infrastructure, you can't unlock those mines. The products can't get to market. You were in government for 15 years. You worked as a senior assistant deputy minister in intergovernmental affairs. Are you surprised, I mean, given that list of things that you just ran down, are you surprised

that we can't build big things in this country? Uh, I'm not surprised. I, I, I'm what I've come to in my diagnosis is that at the end of the day, we're not creating the right partnerships. And this is a really seminal moment for our country. So it's just to be clear, it's not about government because there are a lot of people who would say

that the point, the problem here is government. The problem is where you were working, for example, and the layers of bureaucracy that are in place to actually move things forward. I would say that the governments need culture change. They have to move away from being risk averse to more opportunistic. But the real key to unlocking these projects,

in my experience, and I've done a few of them, LNG Canada is the single biggest one I ever worked on, $60 billion of investment unlocked between the federal, provincial government and the private sector and Indigenous peoples to move it forward. That kind of equation needs to be knitted together. In the particular case of LNG Canada, the $60 billion came through because the federal government put up $250 million. The British Columbia government took down some tax rates and indigenous

peoples were all on board and this is how we move things forward in this country. Public private partnerships matter a lot. Let me bring one other guest into this conversation to talk further about the role of indigenous communities in making these big projects happen. Mark Podlaski is the CEO of the First Nations Major Projects Coalition. This is an indigenous led coalition supporting 175 or so First Nations and negotiating major natural resource and infrastructure projects

across this country. Mark is also a member of the NKAPM First Nation. Mark, good morning to you. Good morning. Your coalition got the letter from the federal government that outlines this proposed legislation. This is what the prime minister wants to do to supercharge this sort of development.

What do you make of the legislation as you've seen it? Well, we've seen it as an outline of the principles of what they're trying to do, which you've already described about supercharging and getting things built in this country. So from our perspective, representing 175 First Nations who are interested in smart projects, that being projects that are inclusive of Indigenous rights and economic participation, cautiously optimistic, but we have not seen what's actually in the legislation yet. We got a statement from the office of the Prime Minister saying, in their words, the proposed legislation acknowledges that right when it comes to

indigenous consultation, that that partnership with indigenous communities is critical, will not cut out the necessary approvals or consultations. But the legislation also seems to suggest that there will be a balance between the duty to consult with the economic growth agenda. How do you square that? How do you make sure that everybody's happy? Well, that's the issue. We just have to see how that's actually implemented. First nations are also Canadians. We understand the implications of the trade

district war that we're having with the United States. We also understand the implications to the Canadian economy for us to be an exporting nation. But as you pointed out, and as our members have told us repeatedly, consultation and the need for free, prior informed consent must not be watered down in any decisions going forward. So again, it's, the proof will be in the legislation. People of C and Ontario have put out legislation, their own provincial versions, and there's been huge pushback because that has not been made clear up front.

Did you know Canadian news is still banned on Instagram and Facebook? And this August will mark two years since that ban began. So if you can't trust the algorithm to keep you updated, trust World Report instead. I'm John Northcott. I'm Marcia Young. And we want to unblock you from the news that matters most. Give us 10 minutes every morning and we'll give you the biggest stories happening in Canada and around the world. You can find and follow World Report wherever you get your podcasts. That's what I was going to say is in in Ontario for example you have bill five

this has been met with opposition from many First Nations leaders who say they weren't adequately consulted and that the bill needs to be killed. In British Columbia, the Assembly of First Nations has said that the government has inflicted, in its words, profound damage when it comes to its legislation to speed up, make big projects and move those forward. What do you make of the pushback from Indigenous, because it's not as though First Nations all speak

with one voice, that there can be disputes within First Nations communities across this country, but what do you make of the push back when it comes to those two bills, which seem to be speaking to what the Prime Minister is talking about here? Again, it's how it's implemented and how Indigenous people will find their voices and rights respected in any legislation and any of the eventual projects approved. So those two nations, groups, excuse me, British Columbia and any of the eventual projects approved. So those two nations, groups, excuse me, British Columbia and Ontario, the two provinces and the nations in those are right in the fact that they are standing for the indigenous right to free prior informed consent and consultation.

Again, how does the federal government respond to that in their legislation? And we're all waiting to see. What do you do with the fact that there are First Nations that may support, um, and it's not as though all First Nations are putting the brakes on it, but that there are First Nations in British Columbia in particular that support what David Eby, the premier there has put forward. Well, our coalition, 175 nations across the country, our members are pro-smart projects, again, projects that support Indigenous rights. In the legislation approving the projects, the construction operation and decommissioning

those projects, our member nations are waiting to see what comes about from the current government in terms of what goes forward. So yeah, there are nations who are supportive of projects provided they're done in the right way that are inclusive, engaged and are in the benefit of both First Nations and Canada. It's a fine line, you're right. And there's not unity from all First Nations on this question. But I would say that there is agreement that First Nations cannot be pushed aside as has happened in the past. What kind of projects do you think you could support?

Well, I remember you go to our website, FNMPC.ca and we support a number of projects, everything from electric transmission lines, electric generation. There's pipelines in there. There's proposals for a new transportation corridors. It's a wide range of products, geothermal energy. It again, it's a large country. Each area of the country has different opportunities and different projects. So critical minerals are in there as well.

So we support the projects that the nations want to see happen. We negotiate, excuse me, we help the nations get ready to negotiate good environmental and economic outcomes. So it's across the, across the board on the projects. J. You've written in, in your report that indigenous participation has to go beyond consultation. What does that look like?

Well, so we're thinking economic participation. I just want to come back on some of the points Mark's been making. It's terrific to hear him lay out what needs to happen. We think at our level that indigenous economic participation is key to any project moving forward. And we've had a lot of success in this country. I think sometimes we forget about that, that there are projects that have moved forward and that what's unlocked them, whether they be electricity, whether it be in the oil and gas space, is strong partnerships and strong dialogue

and strong consultation with Indigenous groups and it can happen. At the highest level, though, I think that this you know we outline 10 essential plays in our report and the biggest of all plays is all about governance and accountability and you were asking me about can the government move this board and I think this goes down to senior officials within the federal system and senior officials within the provincial system. We're talking about deputy ministers putting their shoulder to the wheel, looking at this on an everyday basis, making it mission critical and driving it forward. The governance matters and governance means also partnerships with Indigenous peoples. And so look no further

than some of the strong partnerships we've had. I come back to the LNG Canada example, which if you were to ask Karen Ogan, somebody who I know very well, she would say that was based on dialogue consultation and most importantly, the ability for her indigenous organizations to be able to participate economically in these projects. Mark, you said something really interesting when we started speaking and that was to remember that

First Nations are also Canadians and that there is a shared interest. Why is it important to stress that? Well, it's important to stress it because sometimes over the past 200 years, Canadian indigenous people have been seen as the other. This is a Canadian project. Indigenous people are in the way. Indigenous people are harming the economy. Indigenous people are saying no to everything. That's not true.

You look at now how indigenous people, uh, and your other guest pointed this out, want to be involved economically because they're in our lands. These profits come from either crossing our lands or projects that come from our traditional territories. We are Canadian and we understand that we now in this modern engagement we're having with the world economy, is that we are a key player in us as an economy getting to market, to raising the funds for better healthcare, for better social systems.

We understand that and we do not want to be left on the sidelines like we have been in the past. What do you make of the criticism that has been voiced from some that too much consultation kills a project, that too much negotiation, too much trying, working through the various steps gets us to the place where we're at right now, where we're talking about the fact that big things

aren't being built. I would suggest that big things are being built. You look for example, in Ontario at Hydro One, where there are electric transmission lines being built with a 50% indigenous co equity option, option, not a grant. And you're seeing lines being built on time and under budget. The new minister of energy and natural resources, Canada is Tim Hodgson.

He was at Hydro One when that process went through. And what they figured out at Hydro One is that if you consult and engage substantively at the beginning, openly and transparently, projects get built on time and on budget. So that's one big example. Look at the other projects being happening in terms of pipeline construction and energy infrastructure being built. They are being built with the upfront transparent engagement for First Nations to know exactly where they stand. Jay, the Premier of Alberta, Danielle Smith, is going into this meeting saying that an oil pipeline to the northwest of BC coast is essential and the failure to choose this project would be an unwelcome

signal around national unity to Albertans. You also have the east-west hydro corridor being pitched, you have the expansion of a port in St. John, New Brunswick, you have Doug Ford talking about a tunnel under Highway 401 in Ontario. What are the projects that you think actually have a reasonable chance of being approved? So I think criteria need to be set in order to put those projects on a list. I'm not sure you need legislation, but I guess that's the way the government decided to go. I just really want to see things start to move. And I think we have all the tools to be able to do that right now. Does the federal government need to pick winners?

Does it need to say these are the key projects? I get your submissions, but these are the ones that we think are in the best interests of the nation. I wouldn't call it picking winners. I would call it, at the end of the day, just moving the country forward, as I said, right off the top. Anything that can contribute to our gross domestic product,

that creates greater market access, that is environmentally responsible, that has the support of Indigenous peoples. Those types of projects can and should move forward quickly. We can no longer afford to sit around and just allow our economy to be imperiled. I think timelines matter a lot and being rigorous and disciplined about moving this forward on those projects can help. So setting a vision and seeing this as mission critical, that's where the government should,

and especially the prime minister and premiers, should get behind. And there should not be a debate about which project and when and how it should be more about, we need to move this forward and we need to move it forward quickly. Mark, who will have the ultimate say in what moves forward do you think?

Will it be the prime minister and the federal government? I think it will be the markets. Will the investment come? Will the projects be seen as de-risked enough for the money to be put into them? That's what will happen. We've seen governments green light projects before and they've not been built. So it's the markets. Because the money needs to be there to, for example, to build a pipeline.

The money needs to be there. Yes, exactly. Well, anything, clean energy or infrastructure to, for example, to build a pipeline. The money needs to be there. Yes, exactly. Well, anything, clean energy, infrastructure corridors, mining projects, we will need the capital. And I think what the government is trying to do here is send a signal that Canada is a place where things can get built and you should invest here.

Jay, I heard you in the background, just go ahead. We're almost out of time, but briefly. Yeah, just quickly, the financing of these projects is so super critical and that has to be wedded into this system. If you just talk regulatory as the problem, you will never get forward with these projects. Financing matters a lot, unlocking investment capital for this country matters a lot, and it's dried up. We need to set that as target mission critical and those governments, including the officials,

should see that as number, the first job that they need to do to move these things forward. The end of your report, you quote Friday Night Lights. You say, clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose. You think this is actually possible? Let's go. That's what I say. Let's just get going. It's time.

We have to do this. Mark, last word to you is, and the Prime Minister has talked about the goal getting rolling here within a two year timeframe. Is that doable? It's doable if First Nations are involved intimately in the drafting, planning, and initiation of the projects. Otherwise it's not.

I think we should check back in as this continues to unfold because it matters across this country. Thank you both for being here this morning. Appreciate it. Thank you. You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening.

I'll talk to you soon.