The Current - Cassie Campbell-Pascall on her fight for a place on the ice

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

From the time Cassie Campbell-Pascall was a little girl she had to fight to be included in the game of hockey. Since then, she's been a trailblazer for girls and women in the sport, a World Champion, a gold medal Olympic captain, the first female broadcaster to call the play-by-play in an NHL game, and a fierce advocate for the new pro league, the PWHL. She talks about it all, plus her own personal struggle with infertility, in a new memoir, Just a Girl. 

One summer evening when she was 20 years old, something terrible happened to Vienna-Luc. I can't figure it out, but I do know that it was a violation. Then people started asking questions. What a creep. Who else knows about this? From CBC's personally, this is Agent Leila, the story of how a victim went undercover. So bring it on, let's go. Let's get a confession. Available now on CBC Listen, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast.

Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. Becky Keller touches it ahead to Pounder. It's kept inside the line. Now, Potter with it. Five seconds to go. Four. Broken up by Montrell. The vibe in Salt Lake City was very different from four years before in Nagano when

Canadian women played for Olympic gold and went down to a shocking defeat. Reclaiming the top of the heap in women's hockey as Cassie Campbell celebrates with her teammates. They were the underdogs, Margo. Salt Lake City was Canada's first gold medal in hockey in 50 years, and by the time she won it, Cassie Campbell was already one of the biggest names in women's hockey. She'd go on to anchor the team at the Turin Games and end her playing career with six world championships as well. But her impact has gone well beyond the ice as an advocate for the women's game and as a broadcaster.

But as Cassie Campbell, now Cassie Campbell Pascal, says in her new memoir, Hawkees given her everything, but never for free. That book is called Just a Girl. It was written with the journalist Sean Fitzgerald. And Cassie joins us now from Calgary. Cassie, good morning. Good morning, Matt. How are you?

I'm well. What does it like to hear the last few seconds of that gold medal game in Salt Lake City? Oh, my gosh. I think that's one of the best things about writing a book is you do these interviews and all this old footage comes out of the woodwork, you know, hearing my teammates' names. and, you know, for sure that moment is sort of engraved in your body, so to speak. Yeah, it's pretty cool. But what's the deal you say in this book that you can walk around your house

and not know that one of the owners played 157 games with the Canadian women's hockey team? Like, do you hide all the medals and the gear away or what? Yeah, you know, my medals are in a small bag in my home. I don't take them out very much at the odd time, you know, an event asked me to bring them or whatever. But even then, I rarely bring them out of the house. And I remember a story of my daughter who's almost 16. She was in kindergarten. And she came home and she said, Mommy, did you win some kind of medals or something?

And I guess her teacher had told her. And so I showed them to her and I hadn't taken them out of the bag in a while. And she was kind of, oh, like that's it. You know, like any five and six year old could. But I think now she kind of understands the history of it. And, you know, we have pictures in the basement of different things. My husband was with hockey Canada as well. And now with the flames.

and he's won things. And, you know, we do have a few things around the house. But nothing when you walk in. We're just not that type of people. You posted on social media about this book saying that you wanted it to be a raw, like R-A-W, look at your story, not a raw, raw one. What's the difference between the two? My leadership style is kind of a vulnerable one.

I wear my heart on my sleeve. And I wanted this book to be like that. And, you know, I think people see people who are maybe successful in the public eye and they don't maybe recognize themselves in those people. And the fact of the matter is that for most of us, we're pretty normal. And, you know, we go through normal things and we go through difficult things and we go through fun things. And, you know, I've been able to accomplish so many great things. But they're not necessarily kind of who I am.

The first victory, it seems like, that you had was convincing your parents that you belonged in hockey and that you could play hockey. Why was it so hard to convince them? Well, that was just the time. I mean, you know, I lived in the United States at the time. It's amazing if my father didn't get transferred back home for work. I might still be living there. And who knows I might have played for the U.S., but I started playing hockey in the U.S. And my brother had a girl on his team.

And really, that was the only girl you ever saw playing. And her name was Jennifer Minkas. And I've since connected with her. She was a great player. She was arguably one of the best players on my brother's team. And so she was the inspiration, that final argument, where they put me in figure skating, they got me the best skates. I didn't want to do figure skating and no disrespect to that sport.

I wanted to be like my brother. I wanted to play hockey. And so I finally just said to my parents, well, Jennifer Minkis plays. And they kind of looked to each other like, yeah, she's right. You know, it just wasn't the thing back then that little girls should play. It wasn't seen as, I don't want to say proper, but that's kind of the way it was. And playing with boys, right? Like you're a girl and you're taking a spot on the boys team and think parents had more issue with it than maybe the kids.

we all just wanted to play. You'd say you'd walk through like a lobby, a hotel lobby with your hockey bag over your shoulder and you'd hear like snickering from people. Yeah, I remember those things vividly. Like, you know, you'd walk into the rink and you have your bag over your shoulder and you're walking in like any other kid and you're so excited, you know, and you're hoping for a slushy after and you'd hear people say, oh, girls, girls can't play hockey. You're just a girl or, you know, just little snickery kind of comments you'd hear.

And I always just would store them, I think, in the back of my brain and they became sort of this, this motivation. years later that I never anticipated it being motivation, but it definitely was. Yeah, you heard all those things. Oh, you're just a girl. You can't do this. And yet I am just a girl from Brampton. Like, I don't really think of myself as a big deal. You got up to wild things in Brampton. You had a nickname, Sassy Cassie Cassie. You say, my mom trusts me to be a good kid. Most of the time I try to reward that trust. Other times I might help steal a car. Yeah. Gosh, you're reading a good. part of your book for sure. Yeah, you know, sport kept me on the right track. Do you try to steal

cars? I did. I didn't try. I did. And the good news is we returned them. It was my friend's mom's car and we would take it downtown. We'd bring it back though in one piece and we'd put $5 a gas in, you know, and yeah, you know, I went to one of the roughest high schools probably outside of, you know, downtown Toronto and Jane and Finch in Brampton. And sport got made it so I got along with everybody and different races and different people and just everyone. But it board definitely was the thing where, you know, Cass, you got to be home early, got to practice in the morning. It just kept me away from situations probably more so than I would have been in them. And I think a lot of kids can relate to that. You know, that was the premise of me wanting to be real, but also

helping young kids learn that sport is important and being active is important. And it definitely saved me from many things that I shouldn't have been doing. When did you realize, people realize pretty early on that you're really good and you, you know this as well. And you become, as you say, the poster girl, the face for women's hockey in Canada. When did that become clear to you that that was happening? I think the 97 World Championships in Kitchener, you know, it was my second world championships. I was named an assistant captain at a young age.

I was on the poster for the Ontario Women's Hockey Association. And when I said yes to it, I guess I said yes to it, helping them to promote it, but I guess I anticipated more players on the poster. And I didn't understand that I literally became the poster girl. Like everyone was like, oh, we know Cassie. We know her name. So let's ask her for all the interviews and all the things.

And it was overwhelming for sure, because that was the year before the Olympics. And there weren't many of us women who'd gone through the business side of the game. You know, I was such a team-orientated person that I felt that it was kind of centering me out, which I didn't love and I didn't appreciate and I didn't know how to handle. And, you know, so I was very cautious of that and limiting, you know, how much I was going to do and showcase and commercials and, you know, things like that.

But also limiting what you would do, right? In terms of what people wanted from you, we want you to come and do this photo shoot and they want you to wear specific things, for example. Tell me the story about that. And how you kind of, as somebody who is suddenly becoming well known and famous and people are watching you, how you navigate those kind of worlds. Yeah, I think I learned we had a documentary done on our 1998 team and they sort of, they learned that I had taken some modeling classes, which I did with my friends when I was 15, 16 years old for fun, you know. But I wasn't a model by any means. And so the, I think it was the National Film Board that, you know,

know, they did this documentary on our team and it was really cool, but they kind of portrayed me as that. And it's, and I, I learned at that point that people are going to have their, the way they're going to portray you and how they want to do it, but you can also control it. And so throughout the years, you know, I'd have sponsors in Nike was such a great sponsor. And, you know, but they wanted me to do workout shoots in like a sports bra on tights. And I was like, well, that's not me. Like I wear a t-shirt and soccer shorts, you know, and this is me. And so if you want to do a photo shoot or something like I'd appreciate it if you do the real photo shoot.

But I was just overly cautious about maybe the sexualization of me because if you knew me and you know, you're seeing me right now on video, it's morning here in Calgary and I've got a baseball hat on. I've barely brushed my hair. I've got a jean shirt on. And like this is just me. It could have gone a very different way because you're also asked to do, and this is a constant thing, the calendars for fundraising and stuff like that and they want people to be in,

you know, suggestive poses or nude or almost nude or what have you. And you could imagine in a moment where you're just learning about fame and success that it would be easy to say yes to some of that stuff because people are asking you. And yet you said no. Well, and back then I had an eight pack, right? I had 8% body fat and an 8 pack and muscle. You want to show it off. You know, you're like, oh, God, I'm pretty proud of this. But, you know, I think that, again, just that wasn't who I was. And I don't, you know, want to put down any other athlete who had to do that or felt like they had to do that to raise money. It was something that I just steered clear from. And I wanted to be spoken to because I'm a hockey player and for nothing else.

We played at the beginning the gold medal win in Salt Lake City. And that comes after Nagano, your first Olympic competition, which ends with Canada winning. silver, but not gold. And you saw that as a loss, right? Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, I still am haunted by the looks of St. Louis and Judy Didick and, you know, the players that, you know, that was arguably going to be their only chance to win an Olympic gold medal. And I remember watching their faces as they were getting the silver and the devastation. And we just didn't play well. And me, myself, I felt like I didn't play well either. So then you're like, that really became my. motivation for training the next four years. How do I be better as a player, person, leader,

all those things. And, you know, and give a lot of credit to the U.S. I thought they played excellent and the best I'd seen them play throughout that year. That was the first time we'd really lost. One of the things you talk about in the book was that a root cause for that loss was a fractured dressing room. And a couple of times in the book, you bring up the issue of sexuality. What role did that play? Well, I mean, now it's so easy for young. I wouldn't say. easy, I guess. But you know, you look at the national team players now and the relationships and we know about them and they're a lot more forthcoming. And I think back in the day, it was even within the dressing room where you knew everything about each other, it was still uncomfortable to come out at

that time. And yet those of us who were maybe on the other side, no one cared. We didn't care. We loved each other and we didn't care who was and who wasn't. But you just didn't talk about it. Why didn't you talk about it? Because it just, I think, those that were gay, you know, didn't feel comfortable about coming out. And that's their prerogative and I still love them for it. But you just, back in the day, you just didn't talk about it. It was sort of like, okay, this group's going to go there. When you go out at night and this group's going to go there.

And it was, you know, it just kind of, it just seemed fractured. It just seemed, and to no fault of anybody's, but it just, it didn't seem like a cohesive group. It wasn't just the sexuality part of it. There were a lot of new things being thrown at all. of us that we weren't sure we didn't have the experience to handle. It was a business for the first time. And, you know, there were a lot of things that I think kind of distracted us or pulled us apart. But for whatever reason, sexuality was. And I think that was one thing, you know, leading into 2002, we talked about, you know, and we put it out in the open that no one in this room cares. We love

each other. We, you know, we support each other. And, you know, you just got the sense by the time we stepped on the ice in that game that we were completely. there for each other in every shape and form. And in that room, we loved each other for who we were and who we are. And no one in the women's hockey world cares about it now, that's for sure. Like, it's just, it's not even something you talk about. One summer evening when she was 20 years old, something terrible happened to Vienna, Luke. I can't figure it out, but I do know that it was a violation.

Then people started asking questions. What a creep. Who else knows about this? From CBC's personally, this is Agent Leila, the story of how a victim went undercover. So bring it on. Let's go. Let's get a confession. Available now on CBC Listen, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tell me about one of the reasons why this team was so tight in Salt Lake City was what was happening in your dressing room, but also what was happening across the hall. How would you describe the relationship with the United States?

Is it hatred? Yeah, it was. It was. I think deep down there was a mutual respect, but you had to look deep down to find it. I had a great deal of respect for their captain, Cammy Granado, among others. And we have, you know, since become friends. And AJ Malesco, who, you know, we weren't friends. And then we were covering the NHL playoffs together and we go for a beer and we're buddies now, you know.

And it was definitely a hatred back then, for sure. How did you end up at the center of an international incident? Yeah, it was, you know, it was a story, I'll be honest with you, that I had heard throughout the week. And I knew that we lost eight times in a row to the United States. And so I knew if we were going to beat them in that ninth time. We needed to be angry. And so I learned about the story. And the story is that the story was that the Americans had the Canadian flag on the floor of their dressing.

Yes. And someone, a rink attendant told me that. And so I asked Andre Brin, our media attache, to go get me a Canadian flag. and I kind of tucked it in my, my, you know, the stall underneath me and, you know, thought maybe there might be a time where I tell the story and maybe not. So anyway, sure enough, I think it was the semi-final game, actually. I told the story. And we went out in that third period and I think we were down three, two, and we ended up winning seven, three or so.

I don't even know the score. We won. And then after the gold medal game, you know, one of my teammates, Taley Wignizer was, you know, fired up. And she was emotional and jacked. And she decided to tell the story publicly. And, you know, I kind of wish it never left the dressing room. I'm a big believer in what happens in the dress room stays in the dressing room. And I do now know that it wasn't true.

But in the moment and at that time, we felt it was true. And so with that, you know, the U.S.O.C. and the C.O.C. and Hockey Canada and USA Hockey. You know, obviously this became an international incident. And as the captain, I was the one. that had to kind of get up the next day and go and help Bob Nicholson try and fix it. It just took away from us winning, you know. It took away from that moment. It's just about us, you know, and it's just about our gold.

And again, I don't blame her. She's an emotional player and I love it. But everything that came with it doesn't make that story a great story to me. I do believe now, though, that the flag was not there. I fully believe it. Let me ask you about the success of the women's team because there was this kind of conversation around when the women's team would hammer another team. People would say, oh, you know, the game isn't ready for prime time. Don Cherry during the turn Olympics said that the team was killing the sport with lopsided games.

And there was a columnist who you don't name in the book, but I'm sure you know the columnist's name, who said that women's hockey is what, a tiny mulling universe. Yeah. Well, that would have been Sean who dug that up. So it's Sean Fitzgerald, the author. But yeah, I mean, we just got inundated. You know, the good thing in turn is Sweden upset the U.S. in the semifinals. You know, that was a great moment for our sport. And, you know, we've seen it happen again.

You know, Canada in a world's, I think, 2019 was upset by Finland in Finland at a world championship. So we're seeing the game grow. The scores are not. as lopsided as they once were, but they definitely were never as lopsided as the men's game originally. And people seemed to forget that. They seem to forget to go back in history and recognize that the men's team was beating other countries 30-0-40-0, you know. And it was an easy story to write for me. And I think it was a lazy story to write. You know, they didn't have to actually show up to the games. You know, they could just write this story from afar. But that's the way

women's hockey was covered. Now it's covered like it's hockey. And that's what the PWHL is brought, you know, it's covered like they're critiquing the players for their hockey. Is it different now? I mean, you say in the book that as an industry, women's hockey has a great history of great intentions undone by questionable execution. Is it different now with the PWHL? Definitely. I think because we get to see these women on a regular basis on television. So, you know, you look at the international level, like these other countries are coming. You know, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland. I know it still remains Canada, U.S., but you look at the semifinal games and it's definitely a lot closer.

And it's growing quicker than the men's game ever did. You know, the PWHL does a tremendous job. You're starting to learn about more personalities in the female game. People know who these players are. When you retired, you got into broadcasting. And one of the things that happened when you were in broadcasting, you're trying to kind of establish your career. You were also trying to start a family.

And you write in this book about a really difficult point in your life as you go through what is, you know, that's described to you as unexplained infertility. And I just wonder why you wanted to write about that in as raw of a way as you did. Yeah, I think because I since learned after going through it and wearing my baseball hat and, you know, walking into the fertility clinic and trying to be anonymous that so many people have gone through this process. And friends of mine who I, you know, have one or two kids or three, they went through the process. And like, and they didn't say anything.

things. And I know of other athletes that have gone through this. And, you know, I was so fortunate. I never had any miscarriages. I can't even imagine going through something like that. But we just couldn't get pregnant. And so you go through all the clomid and in vitro fertilization and all those types of things. And then lo and behold, it's ironically, we get pregnant naturally. So, and we got a good one. You know, she's awesome. But I wanted to, that was something I wanted to be part of the book. And, you know, even when I was reading the audiobook, Matt, I couldn't even get through the dedication. Like my first day reading the audiobook, I was, I started reading the dedication and it was emotional. I started reading the prologue and it was emotional.

Definitely reading this chapter was emotional. But I'm proud that I put it out there because I've had friends read it and they have had the exact reaction that I've wanted. I've wanted people to laugh. I've wanted people to cry and be emotional. I've wanted people to feel like they were there in the moment. And that goes to Sean's writing. I give a lot of credit to him for listening to me go through those stories and those chapters in particular and then sensitively capturing it perfectly.

Let me just ask you a few things before I let you go. One is just about, I said earlier, that the game has given you everything, but it's also taken some things from you. You write about concussions in this book. You had doctors who told you to stop playing. You say that you have more concussions than you can count on one hand. And you're going to donate your brain when you're long gone, which hopefully isn't for a long time. Yeah, exactly.

But you're going to donate your brain to be studied. How are you doing? Because in the book you say that you're fine, but that's not the same as being symptom-free. What have those concussions meant for you? Well, I have a long-term neck injury that, you know, crops up from time to time too. And it'll never go away. it's a bruise on my spinal cord, so just things come with that. And I think so many hockey players, athletes, you know, we've had concussions.

And we didn't have the medical staff around us like the men's side did. You know, when we were playing with our club teams, it just wasn't sophisticated at that point enough as a program, I guess. But yeah, I think every time you get a concussion, there's a little piece of you that goes missing. And you can't quite put your finger on it, but you're just, there's something a little off. And so now I'm mostly deal with the neck injury versus the concussions. But, you know, I have two friends, and I know I can put them in the book, Karen Lee Gardner,

who's a great Canadian skier, Goldmel's, Jen Kish, who's the great captain of our rugby team. And I knew they struggled with concussions too. So I asked them, when I was asked to do this, you know, we're the first Canadian women to donate to Canadian research. So the three of us have donated our brain. And we just need more science, more medical information about women, specific to women. And, you know, we see that in so many aspects of life, whether it's menopause or just, you know, women in sport, knee injuries, all this kind of stuff.

My only caveat in my contract, because you have to write a contract for this, is that if whatever reason science changes and my daughter needs a piece of my brain to save her life or whatever, you know, that would be the only caveat for me. Does your daughter play? She does. She totally plays and she's having a blast. Do you think about that? I mean, there's a whole generation of us who have girls who have played hockey

who don't have to think about their place in the game because of what you did. That's a hell of a legacy. Do you think about that at all? Well, not in those terms, but I, you know, I remember five years ago my daughter was trying out for a team and there was like 190 girls trying out for U-15 or U-13 or whatever it was. and I remember sitting there in the stands just watching the games and being like, wow. And those moments get me. You know, she played this weekend.

She got to play in the best part of the arena. You know, when I played, there was always the nice arena within the arena that the boys got to play in. And then you play in the little back practice facility. She got to play in the big fancy arena with the clock and the music and the stands. And I think about those things. And I sometimes just pinch myself. in the moment. But I, the proudest thing I am from her is that, you know, both her dad and her and I are in hockey, and we were overly cautious about pressuring her to play, and we just didn't

go that way at all. And the fact that she's found her own path, and she's made the top team, and she was on the lowest team five years ago, and she loves it, and she has so many friends that play, and she has so many opportunities now because she plays hockey. I think there's no question I do reflect back when I watch her, and it's a pretty cool. feeling. No one's going to laugh at her when she carries the bag through the hotel lobby. No. Yeah. And it's funny because they ask her, you know, how come your last name's not Campbell? And her answer's the best. She's like, because I have a father. So it's, she just handles the whole hockey parent pressure just so well and makes fun of us at the same time. So it's great. She's a great

kid. What an amazing story you have. And it's really great to talk to you about it. Cassie, thank you so much. Thanks, Matt. Cassie Campbell, Pascal. As a Canadian hockey legend, her new book is called Just a Girl, a memoir, and it was written with Sean Fitzgerald. For more CBC podcasts, go to cBC.ca.ca slash podcasts.