The Current - Comics face backlash for performing in Saudi Arabia

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

Comedians playing at a festival in Riyadh are being skewered by fellow comics for ignoring the country's human rights abuses. But former Canadian ambassador Dennis Horak says this isn't simply Saudi whitewashing. It's part of a move towards limited reforms — and that's good for both Saudis and regional stability.

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Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. Have you heard about the big comedy festival that's on right now? Some of the world's biggest names in comedy on that bill. Dave Chappelle, Louis C.K., Pete Davidson, Kevin Hart, Whitney Cummings, all performing. If you like your comedy with a little bit of maple, you have Canadians, Russell Peters, and Sugar Sammy also performing. The wear for this festival is key in this conversation. festival is happening in Riyadh, capital of Saudi Arabia.

Not everyone, it turns out, is laughing about this event. Mark Maren, who is not invited to perform, is among the comics who are unimpressed. I mean, how do you even promote that? You know, like, from the folks that brought you to 9-11, two weeks of laughter in the desert, don't miss it! I mean, the same guy that's going to pay them It's the same guy that paid that guy to Bonsar Jamal Khashoggi, but don't let that stop the yucks.

It's going to be a good time. Human rights and free speech advocates are also criticizing the comedians who took the Saudi gig, saying it helps the Saudi Arabia regime whitewash its image. Some of those who signed on are defending their choice. Here is comedian Tim Dillon speaking a few weeks ago on his own podcast. A lot of people are doing it. They bought comedy. So what?

Do I have issues with some of the policies towards women, towards the gays, yeah, towards the freedom of speech? Well, of course I do. But I believe in my own financial well-being. Tim Dillon's appearance has since been canceled following comments that he made about Saudi Arabia's use of forced labor. Dennis Horac spent several years in Saudi Arabia as a diplomat. He was Canada's ambassador from 2015 through 2018. He's in Toronto. Dennis, good morning.

Good morning. These comedians that are at this festival are taking a pounding from some of their fellow comedians, but also more broadly. Are you among those who are outraged that they would take on this high-paying gig from the Saudis? Not at all. Quite the contrary. I think it's an important – it's important to understand the context. I do understand that there would be criticism, and yes, it's not a democracy. free speech is, it doesn't exist. The scope for political dialogue is very, very narrow. Human rights issues are a problem.

But there's a broader context to the entertainment side of things that we have to remember 10 years ago, there was no entertainment allowed whatsoever, no movie theater is nothing. As part of a much broader social and economic reform program, they started to allow entertainment to happen. It sounds frivolous. It sounds okay, you know, so what? They can go to the movies. They started opening movie theaters.

They had things like Comic-Con. But in Saudi Arabia, as I said, there was no entertainment allowed. That was largely the result of the objections of the religious conservative establishment. And part of the reforms were like, we're saying basically, okay, well, you know what? That doesn't matter anymore. That we want to do things in a different way. And entertainment became very much a part of the sort of the vanguard of some of these social changes. That, for example, one of the earliest things they did was Comic-Con.

And it was really one of the first events where you had gender mixing aloud in public. And there was a bit of a backlash. And what happened was, I was actually speaking coincidentally that day with the head of the Entertainment Authority. And I asked him about the backlash. And he said, you know what, if they don't like it, they don't have to come. And that was such a key sort of shift in the approach to religious conservative establishment and the veto they had over so many aspects of Saudi society that it marked a change. And entertainment has been part of this process to say, you know, what, we're going to be a little bit more of a normal society,

not a democracy, but more normal society where genders can mix where people can go and have fun. Right. There's a couple of reasons why people are outraged about this. One is that many of these entertainers claim to be free speech advocates, but then signed on to a festival where, I mean, the contractors leaked out, just said no jokes about the kingdom. Certainly don't mention Jamal Khashoggi, who went into a consulate and was hacked up with a bone saw. What do you make of that? Again, not surprised. I mean, it's, I think it's fairly, we have to remember, it's not a democracy, it's a metocracy. And yes, they have to make moral compromises. terms of limiting what they can talk to talk about. I think we could probably say the same thing about 80% of the countries in the world. If they went to China, there are no things, there are things that can't talk about. If they went to Russia, there are things they probably couldn't talk about, perhaps not sign on to it. But there are compromises that have to make it. If comedians want to, or any entertainer wants to restrict themselves to basically just the democratic world, that's fine.

The other part of it is that if you take the bag of money, that you are, you are, you are helping whatever regime it is. I mean, there's the phrase sports washing. Maybe it's, it's culture washing. When you have live golf, you have the Formula One race there, you have tennis, you have the World Cup of Soccer coming, that you are, you are helping the regime burnish its image despite its human rights record. How do you square that? That's absolutely right. There is, that is part of the bargain. It's the same actually with if Canada with the World Cup, France, getting the Olympics, these are done as not to whitewash, but to promote the country.

It's very much the same issue for the Chinas and the Russia's and the Saudis. Obviously, they have a much more difficult record to try and hide or defend or to burnish than we do, but that's the purpose of these high-profile events in any case. But it's, again, I come back to this issue of the domestic impact that enter. Again, it sounds frivolous. Okay, so what? They have a comedy festival. But the fact that they have been able to use this as a wedge to get the religious conservative religious establishment, which is the cause of so many problems in Saudi Arabia, that they've been able to use entertainment as a way to sort of push them off to the side. It's an important part of social reforms that are part of a broader package of educational changes and things like that. Again, it sounds frivolous from the outside, but it has been such an important part in sort of changing the inside of Saudi Arabia. And I think that's what's a little bit different from the Chinas and the Russia is that entertainment has been used to serve a purpose that I think all of us would support. You know, what's surprising to some people is that Saudi is in this position at all.

I mean, after Khashoggi, you had Joe Biden calling the country a pariah. it seemed as though that act and other acts as well were to some leaders around the world beyond the pale. And then Joe Biden meets with Muhammad bin Salman, the crown prince, fist bumps him. You have Donald Trump as the U.S. President making his first foreign trip this term to Saudi Arabia. Does the world need Saudi Arabia? Yes. Both from a regional perspective and an angle, obviously there are big players on the oil market

and that has an impact on all of us in the economy. But also regionally, they're important players in trying to stabilize the broader Middle East. They have influence, and it's important for us to engage with them to become a productive and positive influence. It could go very much the other way. So it's important to get, you can't ignore them, you can't isolate them. And yes, there are huge challenges. There are still human rights problems.

And as you mentioned, Khashoggi and all of that. horrific, horrific activities. But you don't change or try and moderate a society by standing on the sidelines and wagging your finger at them. You do it by engaging them. And whether it's engaging them at the political level or whether it's engaging them on a cultural level, an isolated country is going to be a much more challenging country than one that's engaged and one that is integrated into the broader world. And your senses, I mean, you'd know this more than, certainly than me and many others,

is your senses that engagement has worked again, that they've had, you use the word horrific, a series of horrific events, but they have some of the biggest cultural events happening there in the world. Is that engagement working in the country, or have they just won in terms of being able to get those events because they have money? the latter point is very i mean they have money and that's certainly helpful uh in sort of attracting these events um has it have has it been successful i think it's a process

certainly from my understanding the reform process that was launched when i was there it has continued that the society itself is changing very much and part of that is it's again it's a broader economic and social reform program So I think on those aspects internally, I think it is working. Now, is it turning Saudi Arabia into a democracy? No. Is it making a less repressive society, at least at the political level? No.

Do they have strict limits on LGBTQ community activities? 100%. But the thing is, as you more and more open up the society to influences from beyond what had been even just 10 years ago a very insular cultural reality you open this up it will have changes down the road as will they you know they've completely reformed their their educational system k through 12 as part of these reforms that will play in as we go forward too so it's it's all of the it's a process it's your I have to let you go but is your sense in they ask you this to somebody in some ways you were sent out of that country because of what you call that finger wagging

perhaps from a previous government is your sense the Canada should strengthen that relationship with Saudi Arabia now? Well, I think we already have. We've reestablished the black relations at the ambassadorial level. There is engagement. We have engagement with them on so many different things, trade, but also medical cooperation, medical community cooperation, all those things. It's important.

And anything that makes Saudi Arabia much more integrated society with the rest of the world at a time when many countries in the world are also going the other way, I think it's important. I'm really glad to talk to you about this. Dennis, thank you very much. Thank you. Dennis Horac was Canada's ambassador to Saudi Arabia from 2015 through 2018. You've been listening to the current podcast.

My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.