The Current - Concerns for Gaza aid as Israel bans UN agency

Episode Date: October 31, 2024

Israel’s government passed a law on Monday to ban the UN’s Palestinian relief agency (UNRWA), the main source of aid for Palestinians. A spokesperson for the organization says it will cause deadly consequences for Palestinians who are already suffering.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. This strike is yet another in a deadly series of recent mass casualty incidents in the northern part of the Gaza Strip. We are witnessing not only a horrific humanitarian nightmare, but a rapidly accelerating and unraveling of the prospects for a sustainable resolution to this conflict. That was UN Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process, Tor Venesland. This week, an airstrike on a residential building in Gaza killed at least 93 people, including 25 children. The day before, Israel's government

passed legislation to ban the operations in Israel of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, commonly known as UNRWA. Juliet Tuma is the Director of Communications for UNRWA. She's in Jordan. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Update us on the state of the northern Gaza area right now and the dire need for humanitarian aid. The Israeli Air Force's military operation continues. It's been three weeks now of very heavy bombardment and also a tight siege on that area.

By siege, we mean for the UN, we're not able to send in any humanitarian supplies or any personnel to that part of Gaza. That also includes northern Gaza and Gaza City. Juliet, how do you understand this new legislation passed by the Israeli government banning in the future UNRWA in Israel? It is a very serious development. It is a bill that was passed in the Israeli parliament just this week. And if it would be implemented, the consequences on people in both the Gaza Strip and the occupied West Bank will be more severe. You see, UNRWA is the backbone of the humanitarian operation. It delivers humanitarian assistance in Gaza to around 2 million people, including food. We also provide shelter in our buildings. We provide primary health care. And until the war began, we used to also provide learning for boys

and girls who used to go to UNRWA schools in Gaza. The fate of another 40,000 children in the West Bank is also in limbo if this bill would be implemented. Outside of the West Bank, for example, can UNRWA operate without crossing Israeli territory, meaning could it get humanitarian aid into Gaza without going through Israel? without going through Israel? At present time, the route to bring in humanitarian supplies is only via an Israeli-controlled crossing point. So the Israeli authorities must facilitate and authorize any supplies going into Gaza. There's no way in currently through the Egyptian border? That's right. What do you think Israel is trying to achieve by passing this legislation?

It's a very good question that I'm not entirely sure I can answer. What I do know is that if this bill is implemented, the consequences will be very harsh. be very harsh. And look, I mean, what needs to happen right now is to focus the efforts on reaching an end to the horror that people in Gaza have been going through for the past 13 months. There needs to be a ceasefire for some respite for the people of Gaza and also across Israel, also in Lebanon, where I've just been this week. So there must be respite for civilians. There also must be an immediate release of the hostages held in Gaza. There must be an easy flow of humanitarian assistance going into Gaza administrated by UNRWA. I want you to have a listen to Danny Danon,

the permanent representative of Israel to the United Nations. He was speaking at the Security Council this week. The international community and the entire UN must accept the reality that UNRWA Gaza is beyond redemption, beyond saving, beyond reform. We must turn a new page now. He's speaking about Israel. It has accused UNRWA of becoming an arm of Hamas.

That's in quotes. And in August, nine UNRWA members were fired after a UN internal investigation found they may have been involved in the Hamas-led October 7th attack. How do you respond to those claims that UNRWA staff are part of this problem? So when we got those allegations, we've started an investigation through the United Nations in New York independent to UNRWA. And the outcomes of these investigations was that if the evidence that was brought to the investigation,

if that evidence would be corroborated or authenticated, then there might be the possibility that nine UNRWA staff have taken part in the horrific attack on southern Israel on 7th of October. Despite that, the Commissioner General of UNRWA, decided to terminate the contracts of these staff members due to the risk that this has on the reputation of the agency and also to ensure that our humanitarian operation in Gaza continues to function, to function, continues to provide relief to the people who depend on this organization for their survival. But there has been tension between some people in Israel believing that UNRWA is not an innocent aid organization. Did you see this coming?

Look, we have taken all the allegations against the agency very seriously. There has been an independent review that conquered that UNRWA has the most robust systems in place when it comes to the adherence of the neutrality humanitarian principle with regards to our staff and our programs and response. Clearly, though, this, if it's implemented, as you say, after 90 days from now, would very much complicate aid getting into Gaza at all. How tough would it be to replace what your organization is doing right now? It's impossible to replace UNRWA. We do know from the past months that attempts to deliver humanitarian aid by passing UNRWA have failed, and they have failed miserably. And so really the focus right now is instead of banning UNRWA is to reach a ceasefire,

to release the hostages and to bring in more humanitarian supplies into Gaza. This legislation gives a 90-day window until the ban on UNRWA in Israel comes into effect. Do you expect to operate the same until then? That would take us to the after the inauguration of a new U.S. president. As far as today, this morning is concerned, our operations continue in Gaza, in the West Bank, across the region. Business as usual, we continue to provide humanitarian assistance. Our schools are open. Our clinics are open. And so what is really critical is for member states to work with the state of Israel to not implement this bill that got endorsed earlier this week. We are hearing that food aid and polio vaccines are limited or non-existent. Winter is coming to your region. What concerns you

most about the coming weeks inside Gaza? What really concerns us is for us to be allowed and able to continue working as we have been and to limit the restrictions imposed on the agency. You see, you mentioned polio campaign. This was one of the very few rays of light over the past year. UNRWA doctors, nurses, medical workers were the ones who implemented the vaccination campaign. UNICEF brought in the vaccines. WHO brought in the cool campaign. UNICEF brought in the vaccines. WHO brought in the cool chain.

It was our medical teams who went from one shelter to another, opened our clinics and provided that very precious polio vaccine to 600,000 boys and girls in the Gaza Strip. Juliette, you've said several times in our talk this morning, if this goes into effect, do you think there's a window that it won't? Oh, absolutely. I think this is precisely why there needs to be work by the member states with the state of Israel not to implement this bill and to allow UNRWA to continue to do its work. And hopefully, when the ceasefire is reached, UNRWA will be allowed to play a pivotal role, including

by providing learning in UNRWA schools and other settings for this generation of children in Gaza that is on the verge of being lost because they go, you see, into a second year of being out of school, deprived of learning. Thank you very much, Juliette, for speaking with us this morning. Thank you. Juliette Tuma is the Director of Communications for UNRWA. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs.

We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Both allies and critics of Israel have expressed concerns about the UNRWA ban,

with some warning that the decision could complicate Israel's defense against allegations of war crimes. Amir Tuban is a journalist in Israel for the news publication Haratz. He's also the author of The Gates of Gaza, a story of betrayal, survival and hope in Israel's borderlands. He's in Tel Aviv. Hello. Hi, thank you for having me. The Israeli parliament, as we've heard, voted to ban UNRWA from Israel within 90 days and declare the relief agency a terror group. It has been a majority vote.

Who pushed for this ban? This is coming from members mostly of the governing coalition, but it also won support by some of the opposition. And it's coming on the basis of complaints and some evidence we've seen about the participation of people who work for UNRWA in Gaza in the atrocities of the October 7 massacre. This is what started this process in the Israeli parliament. And as you said earlier this week, this legislation was approved despite the fact that many of Israel's close allies in the world have expressed their concerns about the implications of it. Was it long in the planning? I mean, there has been tension. Well, again,

ever since the October 7 massacre by Hamas, we have seen these complaints by the Israeli government and the military about the participation of UNRWA employees in some of the acts of terrorism that were committed on that day. And this was the basis for this entire move against UNRWA by Israel. And I think the biggest argument we're hearing from countries like the US, the UK, Germany, and other allies of Israel is that while Israel has some valid complaints against UNRWA, these other governments don't believe that the step the Israeli parliament just took is the right way to address the problem. In fact, you've recently written about how this ban could complicate Israel's defense at the International Court of Justice over its conduct in this war. Remind us briefly of the allegations

Israel is facing there. So there are currently two ongoing legal processes regarding the Israeli war in Gaza. One of them is that the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, and over there there's been a complaint by South Africa, joined by other countries, that is accusing Israel of committing genocide in Gaza. And one of the main questions that are being investigated by that court is whether or not there is an Israeli policy of starvation in Gaza. Now, what the Israeli government and governments that support Israel, like, for example, Germany, have been saying is that Israel is definitely not starving the population of Gaza because it's allowing aid to come in and allow it to reach the civilian population that needs the humanitarian assistance.

The second process is the International Criminal Court, ICC, where there is an open request by the prosecutor of that court to put out arrest warrants against Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Galant, again, accusing them of a policy of starvation. Now, how does all of that connect to UNRWA and this legislation? Several governments that are supportive of Israel have warned the Israeli side that if UNRWA's operations in Gaza were to stop, there wouldn't be any alternative organization to distribute the aid to the population. And then the case against Israel, both in the ICJ and the ICC, could perhaps, again, this is hypothetical, but that's the warning that Israel received, it could perhaps be strengthened because the aid would not be reaching the population. And then those making

the claims that Israel is starving people in Gaza could perhaps point to that reality. This is a warning that has been provided to the Israeli government, but it did not affect the passage of the legislation. Now, Prime Minister Netanyahu has said after the laws passed that humanitarian assistance must continue to reach Gaza now and in the future, in quotes. Is there a viable Israeli plan for other international relief agencies? Israel has said they would support that to deliver aid to Gaza. Well, this is a complicated issue where any alternative that will be presented is easier said than done.

It will have to be built over time and it will require resources. It's not impossible to create an alternative to UNRWA in Gaza, but it takes time and effort and determination that I have to say, honestly, I have not really seen convincing evidence of it so far. But at least theoretically, yes, you could do that. You could create some kind of

an alternative mechanism for distributing the aid. There have been calls from within the Israeli government to have the Israeli military distribute the aid. But we know that the military leadership is against that solution. The chief of the military has said in some of the cabinet discussions, he doesn't want our soldiers being shot at by Hamas terrorists while they are trying to deliver food to Palestinian families. And so I don't see the alternative solution right now. Maybe it's in the works behind the scenes, but for now, I haven't seen it. We heard just a few minutes ago from the UNRWA spokesperson warning about the deadly consequences a ban like this would have on the people in Gaza. How are Israelis reacting to the humanitarian crisis and

the laws passed this week? I think the law that passed enjoys a lot of popularity in Israel because of what we have heard and seen regarding UNRWA in October 7. This is seen as an Israeli response. This is seen as an Israeli response. And I have to say, frankly, that so far, as someone who does understand the complexity of this issue and has also reported about some of these warnings that Israel has received about the consequences, I have not heard yet something convincing from UNRWA about that root problem of the participation of some of the staff, according to the Israeli complaints, in October 7. Regarding the humanitarian situation at large, it is dismal. It is very concerning. And again, this is something that is also impacting Israel in the international judicial situation the country is facing. And for me personally, I think it only stresses the urgency of reaching some kind of an agreement

to end the war and release all the Israeli hostages held by Hamas, who are also there in Gaza under terrible conditions, and time is running out for them. And the most important thing that can be done right now is to reach some kind of an agreement that will bring them back and end the war. Amir, timing is everything in so many conflicts, and we're approaching a U.S. election. If Donald Trump gets back in the White House, last time he was president, he banned all funding from the United States for

UNRWA. Is there talk that this could happen again and that UNRWA would be sanctioned after the election if Trump got in again? It wouldn't surprise me. It wouldn't surprise me. Although with Trump, everything is a wild guess. He's unexpected. Some would say unstable, and you never really know what he's going to do. But there is a record from his past administration that you could look at. And by the way, back then, we just had other countries try to fill the gap and increase funding for UNRWA. I'm not sure that would be possible today, because some of those countries are already invested in supporting Ukraine and have also other global priorities. One last thing. Do you think this ban will happen? It's got a 90-day window. Yeah, the law has been passed. Now there is an effort by some of these countries to convince the Israeli government to slow walk it or not implement it.

And I could definitely see that happen only for a lack of a better alternative. You could have a situation where the government says, you know, we need more time to implement this law because there isn't an alternative. The Hague situation complicates it further and could lead to some kind of a slowdown like that. And like you implied in your previous question, it could also be impacted by the U.S. election results. Thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you for having me. Amir Tibon is a journalist with Haratz and the author of The Gates of Gaza, a story of betrayal, survival and hope in Israel's borderlands.

We reached him in Tel Aviv. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.