The Current - Critical minerals: Canada has them, Trump wants them. What happens next?

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Critical minerals are essential in making everything from car batteries to cell phones — and Canada has plenty of them in the North. We look at what that might mean for this country’s economy in the increasing global scramble to secure these resources.

What does a mummified Egyptian child, the Parthenon marbles of Greece and an Irish giant all have in common? They are all stuff the British stole. Maybe. Join me, Mark Fennell, as I travel around the globe uncovering the shocking stories of how some, let's call them ill-gotten, artifacts made it to faraway institutions. Spoiler, it was probably the British. Don't miss a brand new season of Stuff the British Style. Watch it free on CBC Gem. if I might ask a favor of you, if you could hit the follow button on whatever app you're using. There is a lot of news that's out there these days. We're trying to help you make sense of it all and give you a bit of a break from some of that news too. So if you already follow the program,

thank you. And if you have done that, maybe you could leave us a rating or review as well. The whole point of this is to let more listeners find our show and perhaps find some of that information that's so important in these really tricky times. So thanks for all of that. Appreciate it. And on to today's show. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy will be in Washington, DC tomorrow to make a deal. At this point in the war with Russia, he wants security guarantees from US President Donald

Trump and in return, he is offering up a stake in that country's critical minerals, the kind that increasingly make this world go around. The ones in your cell phone, in your laptop, in your new electric car. China is already ahead of the game when it comes to controlling these resources, but the United States is hot on China's trail and with a trade war looming, Canada's valuables are caught in their crosshairs.

We'll talk more about that coming up in a few minutes, but first, what is a critical mineral? Vince Beiser is the author of Power Metal, the race for the resources that will shape the future. Vince, good morning. Morning, Matt. How are you doing? Really well.

Let's start with a definition. What is a critical mineral? So a critical mineral, I mean, there's, they're basically the list of the metals that we need to, as you said, to build all the machinery of the world that we're moving into. So it's just this list of, it's this basket of metals, things that folks have probably heard of like lithium, cobalt, nickel, copper, that we need to manufacture solar panels, wind turbines, electric vehicles, batteries, the batteries that are in EVs and the batteries that are in all of our digital gadgets.

Basically the same basket of metals goes into all of those things. And as a result of that, there's a massive scramble all over the world for folks trying to get their hands on more and more of them and produce more and more of those metals. I mean, they really are ubiquitous, right?

I was thinking, people are listening to us now, they might be listening to us through their phone and that phone is powered by a battery that may be using critical minerals. They might be in an electric vehicle that has those batteries. I mean, they are increasingly necessary for our world. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, and it's not only electric vehicles, it's not only your digital gadgets, it's pretty much anything that runs without a plug these days, your cordless drill, your electric toothbrush, pretty much anything that has a battery, uses these metals. So yeah, they're absolutely the central thing for what I call the electro digital age, this era that

we're moving into, that's going to be defined by, by renewably generated electricity and digital technology can't make that stuff without critical metals. So we know that Canada has some Ukraine, obviously as well. Where are these things found? So they're found, you know, there's, there's a long list of them, and they're found in many, many places all over the world, but there is this huge, because there's such a huge demand for

them, countries and companies are scrambling to find them and produce more and more of them wherever they are. So for instance, Indonesia has probably the world's biggest nickel deposits and nickel is a critical ingredient in batteries. And they've gone from almost nothing to becoming the world's biggest producer of nickel just in the last 20 years or so. And along the way, there's this terrible paradox

because while we need these things, we need these, you know, we need renewable energy and we need our digital tech in order to stave off climate change to save the planet. But at the same time, they're exacting a terrible cost on the planet. So in Indonesia, for instance, hundreds of miles of rainforest have been bulldozed

to get at the nickel that's under the ground there. China, as I said in the introduction, seems to have a lead in terms of its control over these critical minerals, is that fair to say? Oh, that's an understatement, if anything. Basically, every single one of these metals that we're talking about, China has a dominating position in the entire supply chain. How did it get the edge? Well, it was sort of a combination of a couple of things. One is the United States and Canada,

which both used to be, I mean, the United States used to be the world's number one mining power for a long time, but long about the 70s and 80s, they basically got tired of all the environmental damage that came along with that. I mean, mining is very destructive. It generates a lot of pollution and so on. And so as part of the whole shift to shift heavy industries to offshore heavy industries, they basically said, you know what, we don't want to do this stuff in our own backyard anymore. Let's let somebody else do it. And there was China, which was just opening up its economy at that time, which said, fine, we'll do it. We're happy to dig this stuff up on our own land and build the refineries here in China. And also they were just very foresighted.

They have a lot, China has a lot of a particular subset of critical metals, this group of very obscure elements called rare earths. And as far back as the 90s, Chinese leaders were saying, the Middle East has oil, we have rare earths and we're going to make sure that we are the ones who hold the dominant. We can see that these are going to be very important and we we're gonna make sure that we are the ones who hold a dominant we can see that these are going To be very important and we're gonna make sure that we're we're the ones who control the supply of this this new resource So we're not only just having the supply but in in controlling it in flexing and weaponizing it How has China been able to do that? What is trying to be able to do in terms of I guess?

Push ahead in a way that other countries wouldn't be able to. Yeah, so it's really not, it's not only the mining of this stuff. So China mines a lot of this stuff within their own borders. They've also bought up mines or pieces of mines all over the world, including here in Canada that produce these metals. And no matter where this stuff comes up,

comes out of the ground, most of it goes to China for processing, right? To take that raw material and turn it into pure copper, nickel, whatever it is. Then Chinese factories take those metals and turn them into most of the world's solar panels, wind turbines, electric vehicles, and batteries. So again, this is all, you know, they saw this coming and they were very deliberately built out these industries to dominate these industries of the future. So that gives them enormous geopolitical leverage, which is a big, big concern.

Cause basically they can, you know, they can cut off supplies of these things at any time. And they've already done that a couple of times. Speaks to why the US president Donald Trump would say in his words, I want security of the rare earth. He's making this deal with Ukraine. He's trying to buy Greenland, which also has these, these minerals. What do you make of what the United States is doing in terms of it trying to

get its mitts on the, on these minerals now? Yeah, well, this has been, I mean, the United States has been doing this in all Western countries, again, including Canada have really been, uh, this has been, I mean, the United States has been doing this in all Western countries, again, including Canada, have really been trying to build up their own supplies of these metals especially since 2010, which is the first time that China cut off supply of rare earths to Japan just for a few days, but it was enough to really freak out the Western world's leaders and make them realize that China really has us over a barrel with this stuff. So in that sense, Trump is doing,

he's sort of continuing what was US policy. He's just doing it, surprise, surprise, in a much cruder and sort of more blatantly transactional and exploitative and bullying kind of way. How much of a factor do you think those minerals are and what he's saying about, about Canada talking about making Canada the 51st state, for example? I think it's definitely significant. I mean, you know, Canada has, you know, we're, we've got all kinds of resources,

but, but critical minerals are definitely high on the list. Um, we do mine a lot of these things here in Canada. We have great big, uh, reserves of, of lot of these things here in Canada. We have great big reserves of many of these metals that haven't been tapped yet. Also, Canada is a huge mining power all around the world. Canadian companies are some of the biggest involved in some of the biggest mines all over the world. So, it's not surprising that that uh, you know, that that would attract it, you know, put a, put a, put a greedy little gleam in his eye. Is it possible to get these things out of the earth without destroying the planet?

I mean, you've talked about the, the fact that nothing comes out of the ground without a cost and whether it's in Ukraine, whether it's in China, whether it's the Chinese companies that are operating in Africa, whether it is in the north of Canada, there will be an impact on local population in getting these out. Particularly if the little local population is not the one that's benefiting from, from the resources itself. Is there a way to do it in a more, in a

less destructive way? Yeah, there is. I mean, so there's mining is always causes some damage, no matter how hard you try. The whole objective, of course, is to literally tear up the earth and dig out something that's underground. So you can mitigate that damage, you can try to lessen it, but there's always going to be some harm. One thing is, obviously, we can do everything we can to try to limit that damage with environmental rules, labor standards, which are much higher here in Canada

than they are in a lot of places overseas, like the Philippines and Indonesia and other places where we're getting a lot of this stuff now. But more important than that, there's already a lot of these metals above ground, right? We've already dug up billions of tons of all of these metals that are in our gadgets, that are in our EVs. So we really need to be looking also at doing

everything we can to recycle those things, which we're doing some of, but not nearly enough. And also to reuse, even better than recycling, is figuring out ways to extend the lives of those products, to be able to repair them or resell them, refurbish them so that we don't have to be constantly, so that folks aren't just in the habit of throwing out the new iPhone every year and getting a new one just because the new one's got 27 bazillion more megapixels in its camera or whatever. Just before I let you, well, just before I let you go to that point, um, I mean, this is about control in some ways.

You've said, you used this phrase earlier, the electro digital age that we're moving into and that these things are going to be, even if they're ubiquitous, not they're going to be even more so, um, in future. What's at stake for all of us if the management and the control of these minerals isn't done correctly? Well, I think, you know, there's two real dangers, right?

There's one is damage to the environment and to human beings. Like I said, all around the world, because of the scramble for these metals, rainforests are being cut to the ground, rivers are being poisoned, children are being put to work in mines in some places. There's all kinds of real horror stories that are coming along with that. And the second is the enormous geopolitical leverage that it gives China. So, if you think

about what happened in the 70s when the biggest oil producers all got together and said, you know what? We're going to cut off oil to the Western world. all got together and said, you know what, we're gonna cut off oil to the Western world. We're gonna use that leverage to squeeze them. Something very similar could happen with these critical metals. So it is really important. We've got to get our hands on more of them,

but we've also got to figure out how to do it in ways that are more sustainable and more humane. Vince, this is really helpful in understanding a phrase that people just keep saying perhaps and not knowing what they're actually talking about. Thank you very much for this. Well, thanks for having me on. It was great being here.

Vince Vizer is the author of a new book, Power Metal, the race for the resources that will shape the future. He also writes the Power Metal substack. He was in Vancouver. Tansi, hello, I am Shayla Stonechild. I'm an advocate for indigenous wellness and the founder of the matriarch movement. This year, the great Canadian book debate is

looking for one book to change the narrative. The books on this year's show all have the power to change how we see, share, and experience the world around us. I am defending a two-spirit journey by Mané Chacabé and Mary Louisa Plummer in this year's Canada Reads, one book to change the narrative. For more on Canada Reads, go to cbcbooks.ca.

Canada has a lot of these critical minerals. Getting them out of the ground is not easy. Last week, I spoke with the premier of Yukon, Ranj Palai, and he shared his concerns about what's next for this country's mineral management. They don't have the critical mineral wealth that Canada has and they know they need it. And you've seen the way they've asserted it

in their negotiations, even with, I think, rare earth metals in Ukraine. Why are we not having a discussion about what we can do together? And when we talk about critical minerals, um, Canadian and US companies work very well together, we have a good mining ecosystem. Canada does this well. And when we think about this, why are we not trying to onshore all

of the processing that's happening for all these critical minerals, not let countries control the supply chain and turn it off at their whim, which we've seen over and over again now coming from China? And why are we not creating new parts of our economy that we did not have together instead of trying to go into an economic battle? Werner Antweiler is an associate professor at the UBC Sauter School of Business, has written extensively about Canada's critical mineral resources. Werner, good morning to you. Good morning.

What do we have in this country? Well, we have pretty much everything that we need. There are 31 critical minerals that Canada has identified in its critical mineral strategy. And when I look at a map, it's everywhere. It's really literally from coast to coast to coast. We have copper and aluminum here in BC and molybdenum. We have copper and tungsten in the Yukon. We have, of course, uranium in Saskatchewan.

And if you go to the east coast all the way to Newfoundland we have minerals there too. Lithium which is very critical in many applications for electric vehicles we have in in Quebec. So if you go down the list we've got it all. Can I just ask you about the north because in the conversation that I had with the premiers of the three northern territories last, we talked a lot about sovereignty and the control of resources and particularly the critical minerals that would rest, for example, under ice. What do we know about what's in Canada's north, especially in those areas that are under ice?

Well, the Geological Survey has conducted so many studies on what's where. Much of it is not necessarily easily accessible. What is the reason why we don't actually see many more mines already is that it's actually difficult to get to. It is expensive to get to. And instead we have seen many more mining activities elsewhere in the world because it's cheaper,

standards are lower, and that is in part the reason why what we see that is, for example, buried under the ice up north, it's just not readily accessible. What is the state of our critical mineral industry when it comes to not just the extraction, but understanding where the minerals are, getting them out and then refining and producing them? Yes, and here is a big gap. And as a previous speaker actually already pointed to, there's a lot of concentration.

What is coming out of the ground is often shipped for processing to places in particular China, which has a concentration in copper and lithium, in nickel, in cobalt, in graphite, and almost a monopoly in rare earth. So this is a continuing problem where we just don't have the processing and refining capacity that we need to satisfy the demand

in the Northern Hemisphere here.- that is something where Canada has also opportunities. The problem has been that countries like China. Have been engaging in what is in. To some extent environmental dumping they are able to produce at a lower cost because they have lower environmental standards. They have a label also that are less protective. And they also have received state subsidies and cheap loans that have bootstrapped that industry. Is there a way for us to scale up the industry at speed,

but not destroy the environment at the same time? That is going to be exceedingly difficult, because there is no such thing as fast mining. To open up a new mine takes about 10, 12, even 15 years because there is a long process even for the investors. They want to make sure that the resources are there, the ore grade is really up to the level that they can exploit economically. They need to go through a regulatory process of environmental impact assessment. And increasingly also we have

to acknowledge that we're operating on land that is essentially indigenous land where we need to have extensive conversations and consultations and buy in from those communities. That takes time that cannot be short-circuited. That is something that we absolutely should not compromise on because essentially we would create new problems down the road if we are fast-tracking approval without looking at the long-term consequences.

If you do this right, what do you think the impact could be on our economy? Very significant. We have a huge potential and if the energy transition continues on the track as the International Energy Agency forecasts, we're going to need a lot more of these minerals. Under mainstream scenarios, cobalt 21 more times, nickel 19 more times. So there is a very significant demand that can be addressed by producing in Canada, but we have to do so responsibly. We cannot fast track it,

but we also need to create a level playing field with other countries that are engaging in these practices that create labor problems, that create environmental problems, and significant human rights issues. And we're in some instances, we are also trampling on the rights of indigenous communities, because they weren't consulted when certain mines were opened up in foreign countries. So we need to develop a strategy to track and trace where minerals are coming from, and then actually create regulations that level the playing field that put essentially a price on these negative externalities that

happen elsewhere but not here because we have better standards. Just very briefly before I let you go given the fact that the United States we keep hearing these threats coming from the Oval Office turning us into the 51st state and what have you. If we have, if you look at that map in your mind of across the country, we have all of these, these minerals, is there the opportunity for Canada to play a bit of hardball with the U.S. here? Say we have what you need.

Well, this is kind of strange because on one hand, Trump seems to be very interested in critical minerals, but at the same time, he's pushing back hard against the energy transition. Everything where these minerals are needed, electric vehicles, wind turbines, all of those applications where we need these minerals, they are related to the energy transition. Yet Trump seems to be very, very keen on securing those minerals. But that said, we do have a strategy here. Now, if they want these minerals and some are super critical even

for the US military, we can push back. We have a very strong card to play when it comes to natural resources and energy. Werner, we'll leave it there. It's good to speak with you. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Werner Antweiler is an associate professor at the UBC Sauter School of Business, also the chair of the Strategy and Business Economics Division, and the Research Chair in International Trade Policy.