The Current - Do you worry that your job is meaningless?

Episode Date: June 3, 2026

Is your job all about meetings? And emails? And meetings that should have been an email? Some corporate workers say the pandemic pulled back the curtain on “bullshit jobs.” And now with a worsening economy and the threat of AI disruption, they’re left wondering what value and meaning there is beyond the paycheque.

Imagine you've been charged with a crime, and the only witness pointing the finger at you isn't even human. I remember thinking, are you serious? What is this thing? It's something artificial, created by a mysterious Canadian. And it's coming for all of us. A life-defining technology. Crime as we know it will never be the same. I'm like, oh my God, he's lying.

From CBC's Uncover, The Expert Witness. available now on CBC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is the current podcast. Are you on your way to work right now? Do you work in a corporate job with meetings and emails and meetings that should have been emails? Do you ever sit at your desk and wonder, does my job really mean anything? The current's intern Alexa Mackay

talked to people in Toronto's downtown business district about their work and how they find meaning. So I'm a data steward at TD Bank, so pretty much I work with data all the time. I try to find meaning in my job. Honestly, I like to think it's important because I'm supporting different teams, but it's not really that impactful,

as opposed to someone who's like a doctor. So I work for a consulting company owned by Microsoft and Accenture. So I run our apps and infra business for Canada. Basically what that means is anything that we do regarding software engineering. I help the sales team in solutioning and helping sometimes deliver it as well. I went to UFT for computer engineering, and I went into engineering because I really enjoyed building things. For me, the meaning in my job is when I actually see the results of something that we solution. So it's challenging, and obviously there's good days and there's bad days.

I'm a civil engineer, so I work for a consulting firm and mainly on kind of mega, large civil infrastructure projects. Crunching data and then also just dealing with kind of like bureaucratic stuff that arises on these like major projects. You end up being like one of thousands of people on the project. And so like your day-to-day work becomes very detached from like the actual output of of what's being done. I don't think that everyone's job is like that meaningful and like we've become so much more

efficient with computing tools and all that kind of stuff. So like in theory we should be working less. but in practice that hasn't really happened. So I think we're just filling the time gap with work that maybe doesn't need to be done or is unnecessary. The pandemic changed how a lot of us think about work. And now with artificial intelligence and an uncertain economy, some Canadians in the corporate world are thinking about the value and meaning of what they do for a living. People are quiet quitting.

That's when employees do exactly what's in their job description and nothing more. They're taking soft days, working from home and doing the bare minimum, and wondering if the work they do could just be done by AI. In a moment, we'll hear from a career coach who helps people find meaningful work, but first I'm joined by Alex McCann. He's a writer, entrepreneur, and founder of the career coaching platform Rumba. He's in London, England. Alex, good morning.

I'm up. You wrote a piece last year that went viral called The Death of the Corporate Job. And in it, you wrote about meeting an old friend for coffee. And she tried to tell you about her job at a big consultancy. firm. How did that go? Yeah, so I was catching up with an old friend and she'd started this new job after training for a few years post-graduation. And I was asking her how it was going and, you know, what she thought of the new company and so on. And about 10 minutes into the conversation, I kind of asked her, you know, well, what's your title? What do you do day to day? And she comes out

with this kind of nonsense title. I kind of remember what it was, to be honest, and gives me essentially her job description word for word and and I remember asking her you know what okay in simple terms because I don't really understand what what is it you actually do and she kind of stopped herself and said you know actually to tell the truth not a whole lot you know the title sounds impressive but you know actually in terms of my day-to-day role yeah it's really hard to point to any kind of meaningful progress or or impact I'm having so so yeah that was a bit of an eye-open experience for me and then I had various conversations with people like that afterwards. And yeah, it just kind of opened my as to something that I was fairly unaware of having

not worked a corporate job. Yeah. Opened your eyes to what? What were you learning in the process here? I was learning that a lot of what can be done in organizations or a lot of what should be done in organizations could be done in a fraction of the time. I think that obviously COVID in the pandemic shone a light on that dynamic. And I think also just the kind of underlying frustration that people were experiencing having to pretend that their jobs actually meant something.

You wrote about something you called the great pretending. So tell me more about that. What is that great pretending? There's this pressure to kind of keep appearances up, especially in these large organizations where so much of the hierarchical structures are dictated on the manager's ability to kind of just keep an eye on what everybody. he's doing. And so I think that these, you know, as I say, there's a huge incentive for people to basically just pretend, keep up appearances, make sure everything looks fine. And when you're doing that, you're not working. You're not really contributing to anything meaningful. You're, you know, you're acting and it becomes a different thing. And I think that that inauthenticity grates on people

over time. And it seems to have reached ahead. And I think, you know, particularly with AI coming about, you know, so much of this type of work has been exposed. And, and yeah, it's a really interesting time for these organizations now. The anthropologist, David Graber, wrote a book about this called Bullshit Jobs. So what exactly is a bullshit job? Yeah, so, I mean, he categorizes them. I think he has five types. I can't remember all of them word for word. But, you know, essentially, you know, these roles where you say you're doing something and actually you're not doing, you know, what it says in the job description. And I think that so much of, you know, responsibilities for employees within these large corporate organizations has kind of ended up being something other. And he talks

about, you know, these roles like the duct taper or, you know, the micromanager or people that are employed, you know, when a company hires like three or four receptionists to make it look like it's a certain level, you know, that essentially these jobs don't really need to be there, but they serve a purpose other than the completion of the work. And yeah, I mean, he goes into how society has allowed these jobs to perpetuate. But I think what I've tried to explore a little bit more in my work is the impact that that has on the individual, spending so much time, you know, working on things that they know deep down to be futile. Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted to ask you next. I mean, what is that impact on people who feel that they're in a dead end or a BS job? I think a couple of the callers

talked about it. There's a few things that I think really, really kind of get to people at a pretty existential level. I think the first thing is that, you know, we spend so much of our time at work and so much of our identity is tied into what we do. That when you can't see any direct impact from your efforts, I think people can really think that they're, you know, they're wasting their time and, you know, time is precious, time is limited. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and for people that that can be a really big strain. I think the other thing is in these jobs, people I've spoken to often find the disconnect from who they are.

This is a kind of post-industrial system that has been designed for predictability, interchangeability, all of these things, and all of these things suppress individuality. And so you're talking about people that for years and years have been suppressing what makes them unique, what makes them who they are. And that's a really hard thing for people to deal with.

You're in your 20s, correct? Yeah. Yeah, I'm just wondering as someone who's a little older than you. Is this new? I mean, you know, I grew up with this same idea as well, people who felt that they were in dead-end jobs and people were just going through the motions. Is there a new sort of framework to it now, do you feel?

So I don't know about a framework. I think that the generational difference that I'm seeing is for, my parents and grandparents' generation, the deal was fairly clear. You knew what you were getting from an employer. The trappings of success at a corporate organisations were fairly clear you had a pension and because house prices and most developed economies were, you know, reasonable relative to wages. Your sacrifice was clear. The trade-off was clear, is that you would sacrifice some meaning you would work in this, you know, this organisation, but you would be able to provide for your family. you could afford a house, you get a nice pension.

I think the other thing as well is that work provided a kind of a third space that it doesn't anymore in that most people stayed at a job for much longer and there were places to go in person. And so your work became your community and that offered a slightly different thing. Whereas now I think it's really unclear because it seems to be the way to get to move up the ladder in a corporate culture is to jump ship and go to another organization. And it's also, you know, it's not clear that you're making meaningful progression towards these goals and the sacrifice that young people are making is, I think, just, yeah, fundamentally different to what it was a generation before. Yeah. And the pandemic must have had an impact on this as well for all the

people who ended up working from home. And suddenly their workday was dramatically different from when they were in the office. What impact do you feel that it has had on people and maybe feeling that their work has become less meaningful? Yeah, I mean, I think that people have a way of tricking themselves. And there's quite a lot you can do in an office, I suppose, that isn't the work. You know, you're catching people up and you're talking to people. You're going to the water cooler, you're going to the kitchen, all of these things.

And then I think then when people were forced, to work from home, they really, like, they were confronted with the realization that actually I could probably do my job in, you know, just a fraction of the time. And for some people, I mean, you know, I know, I know, I know I can just do my hobbies the rest of the time. But for a lot of people who's, as I say, their identity is so tied into what they do for a living, I think that they thought, wow, oh my God, have I really been wasting this much time? And they felt this enormous pressure to do something else with the rest of their time and think about, you know, their career more broadly and what they were going to do in the future when things returned to

normal. You wrote that the death of the corporate role doesn't need to be seen as a crisis. It can be freedom. So what does that freedom look like? I think there's a couple of ways to look at this. I think that I talked about using the corporate job as a kind of launch pad for, you know, a side project or trying other things out. I think that there's something really interesting is once you realize that actually the job that you do could be done in a fraction of the time and you've got all of this time spare if you're being truly efficient, I think that that leaves space for experimentation, gathering data on what you should be doing long term.

And I think that that's what, you know, this project of the last year has really been focused on is helping people go through the process of gathering data as they go into the you know, one of the biggest decisions of their life, which is what to do with their career. And so you can use a corporate job essentially as a way to kind of almost like a safety barrier so that you can continue earning. You know, you still have a bit of purpose and then in your spare time go out and explore and try to better understand yourself, better understand the opportunities that are available to you. But of course we know with the economic downturn, a lot of people just want any job,

never mind meaning they just they just want a job and a paycheck so how does that factor in yeah it's a really good point i think um this is this is a big part of it and what risk looks like to different people is is is hugely significant i think that understanding your own capability for risk your your financial circumstances is really important and that's why you know i've tried to be careful not to give people advice like a kind of one-size-fits-all approach i think that in this process, it's up to the individual to have an honest conversation with themselves and say, you know, actually, I'm on a position where I can just kind of jump ship and leave this job and try out this new thing. Do I have enough information to go and do that? But I think this process

really also is about minimising the risks. If you have more information, if you've, if you've properly tested, you know, the market opportunities and you really fully understand yourself, I think that the risks are massively diminished. I think it's it's when people, you know, they leave their jobs because they hate it, but actually they don't really have an idea of what they're going to do next, particularly under financial stress is where things tend to go wrong. So I think that taking this approach could actually be quite helpful to a lot of people that are, you know, that are struggling or, you know, worried about job security or finances. Well, there's plenty of people who fit that bill out there.

Alex, good to talk to you. Thank you. Alex McCann, as a writer and founder of the career coaching platform, RUMBO. We reached him in London. To some, AI chatbots are helpful tools. To others, an existential threat. But what happens when someone falls in love with one? I can't believe I'm doing this with somebody that's not a human.

What if a chatbot makes you lose your grip on reality? She said that her life work was advocating for AI rights because they're sentient and they're enslaved. Understood. Artificial Intimacy. Available now on CBC Listen or wherever you get your podcasts. England. Listening in Stephanie Koonar, she's the co-founder of Peerspectives Consulting, which offers career coaching and team building workshops. She joins me now from Halifax. Stephanie, good morning. Good morning, Mark.

Give me your thoughts as you're listening into my conversation with Alex and really sort of painting that portrait of a lot of disaffected, perhaps younger people who are in the workforce right now. What have you seen and how do we address this? It's a big question really and especially around meaning and getting meaning in your work, especially if you are, you know, like you said, trying to make ends meet and you do need to just get any job to pay the rent or pay your expenses. But I do think it's worth exploring like what is meaning. When I was doing research for my book, I work a lot with young people and I really made a distinction or found in the research between happiness and meaning. And happiness is fleeting, but meaning is more enduring.

And when people come to the end of their life, they want to know if they've had a meaningful life and impact. And meaning doesn't mean that you're happy the whole time, actually, because it could be hard, but you're working towards something that's meaningful. So I do think it's challenging to have all your meaning wrapped up in your job. It's the ideal. But I think there's ways to kind of find meaning in other places as well. But just meaningful that the whole concept for finding meaning is so subjective as to what it is that that provides that for you. It could be dramatically different for somebody else.

So how do you help people find meaning when meaning could be so different between two different people? Yeah, 100% it is different for people. So I use the model, the Ikigai model. If you heard that term before. I have never heard that. Fill me in. I didn't invent it. It's a Japanese term.

and it's for, you know, they found in the zones where people have longevity that people have an icky guy have purpose or meaning. And there's a framework that says if you answer a few questions for yourself, and it's a lot about what Alex was saying about understanding who you are. So the four questions are, you know, what do you love, what you are good at, what does the world need and what can you get paid for? because we also want to have this financial independence piece. And it's through exercises, and I don't even think we do this enough. Even at grade 9 and 10, we should be starting to do this kind of reflection on really getting a sense of what am I all about and what's important to me. And we've done workshops even with the big sisters organization with the little sisters. And we've asked them, you know, is there something in the world that's happening that you think nobody's addressing?

It's a challenge that nobody's addressing what you would like to work on. And instantly they're like, oh, I want to work on homelessness, or I'd like to work on mental health for young people. Or people have different issues and causes that they would like to work on. And what is happening in the world is there's plenty of organizations and companies that are working on these issues. You don't have to do it alone, you know? So it is that self-reflection and then matching it up.

similar to what Alex was saying with what's happening in the market. I think that's a great idea in trying to see what will make people feel happy. But what do people tell you about why they're unhappy at their job? I think there's a lot of things. And I was reading some of Alex's articles too about why do people feel disconnected. And in the Gallup world, I'm a Gallup Strengths coach. We call it not engaged, right? We wanted to be an engaged employee where we feel connected.

We're thriving at work. We're highly involved. Those type of employees are enthusiastic. But the quiet quitting ones are they're not engaged people and they're not attached to their work. And a lot of it is because they're not seeing the impact or they're not connected to the output using their own strengths. The whole idea of understanding your strengths is that you can kind of seek out opportunities where they need your strengths. and a lot of times managers don't even know what the strengths are of their team members, right? So what I really like about the Gallup strengths work that I do is that if you can articulate

your strengths to your manager, maybe you can actually start connecting on finding projects or tasks or committees that actually tie into your strengths. And when you're using your strengths, you're actually in the flow. You're actually doing something you're naturally good at. and that is what gives people a real sense of engagement and meaning. Yeah, and it also gives the employer value for their dollar that they are investing in your wages. Because that's what I'm wondering, as Alex was talking about, you know, the BS jobs or the great pretending, is people going through the motions and they're not really doing much and they're just sort of hanging around and going to the water cooler or the kitchen.

I mean, that doesn't sound like a bad job. That sounds like a bad employer in my opinion. So I'm not sure if this is a job thing or how people are being handled in the workplace. I think that's a great observation. And we do know through a lot of the research like Allop does on the workplace that the manager makes a big difference. 70% of the level of engagement is derived from what the manager does. And they actually have a book called It's the manager because that's the reason why people leave. It's not the job.

It's not the money. It's the manager. And we ask people a lot of times to think back, you know, when you've worked for somebody who was awesome, And what was that like, right? Or when you worked with somebody who wasn't, sometimes you learn a lot from manager that wasn't a good manager. But I agree with you. I think that when I first did the Strengths Assessment,

when my co-founder who was a friend gave me an assessment, I couldn't believe how much it explained about me and the career that I was in. And, you know, I started being able to articulate to my colleagues. And even I had a department chair at one time, a faculty member at a post-second institution. And she didn't want to go to this. networking event and I said, I'll go for you. And she goes, you will, you will. And she was so happy.

And I have woo and communication. It's right in my wheelhouse and it was something. So we've done that with teams where people can kind of share what they naturally bring and what people can count on them for and also but what they need. To me, that is such a heartwarming thing to know that you don't have to have all the answers. And if a team, you know, leave can kind of orchestrate or conduct, you know, and pull this guy in when they need this and pull this person in when they need that, that's going to be just playing to everybody's strengths. Have you ever found yourself unhappy in a job that you were doing?

Yeah. Yeah, I have. I found myself in that position. And, you know, when we coach people, we say to see if you can look for opportunities and speak to your manager or, you know, maybe it's a lateral promotion or something like that. But sometimes you might have to look outside of. your company. Or start your own company, as you have done. You know, Alex was talking, he's in his 20s, he's talking about a generation just starting out in their careers. But if you're at a later

stage in your career and you're feeling disillusioned, is it too late to do anything about that? No, definitely not. And I think you have to listen to your gut and listen to those feelings of dissatisfaction because they can grow. Like there is a category of people called actively disengaged and those people are not just unhappy they're resentful and they undermine other people and you might have worked with people like that sometimes in your past right and they really bring the whole place down so you don't want to get to that point so if you are feeling a little bit disengaged and you want to you know kind of get that light inside of you going and that energy and people have gifts and we we need those gifts so sometimes it might be you know I had one

coaching client and she had strategic thinking talents and she said to her manager, I'd really like to be on more strategic programs initiatives and he said, no, I'm sorry. And she so she didn't know what to do and we talked and I said, what about joining a nonprofit board? They would love your strategic talents. And so that was something that she thought, I'm going to pursue that and kind of fulfill that more meaningful piece, but also, you know, tied to contributing back to society in a way that she wanted to and she's naturally good at. We're in graduation season right now, whether it's high school, universities, and a lot of new grads are trying to figure out their careers at a tricky economic time.

So what's your advice to young people who are trying to find not only just work, but meaningful work? Yeah, well, I do think that this Iki guy kind of model where you do some deep reflection, and there's exercises to do that, to kind of tap in, to look back, to see something you did that you were proud of in the past. If you think of an example of that, and sometimes it comes up right away, sometimes it takes a minute, but you capture that situation and you look at that situation, and what were you doing? What was it about that accomplishment that you enjoyed it? And you can start to uncover what it is that you really uniquely bring to the world. Like it could be,

say it was running of 10K. Some people, it might be the actual running of it. Other person, might be the planning, the training, the diet. And that tells you something that, oh, that person likes planning, that person likes the data, then research, you know. And if you look at even a couple examples, that can help you. So there's the piece about yourself, but then there's obviously the market piece and looking at what is happening, what industries are growing. Where is the federal government putting more initiatives, you know, or money into?

These are all areas that you've got to kind of. to see where is the future going. So using Wayne Gretzky, you know, where's the puck going? You want to be there, right, and position yourself. So it is a little bit more research than people think, I guess I would say. Well, I really hope this conversation has helped a few listeners out there who may be feeling a little stuck or wondering what their meaning is to know that you can find it.

You just got to look a little harder. Stephanie, thanks so much for your time. Thank you, Mark. Stephanie Kuhner is a careers coach and the co-founder of peer spectator. consulting she was in Halifax. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening.

I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca slash podcasts.