The Current - Does Canada's future lie with the US or Europe?

Episode Date: September 15, 2026

Canada's relationship with the United States is rocky right now. Is it a glitch or a new feature? Former U.S. ambassador to Canada Bruce Heyman argues the ties that bind the two neighbours will endure. But Prime Minister Mark Carney is heading to Europe hoping to deepen ties to the EU. Former Quebec premier Jean Charest says that's in Canada's interest.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled. After all the awkwardness, disasters, and family drama, Mark Critch, is finally graduating. Maybe it's about not settling for the way things are, but making your own way. No, it's both jobs. And to move forward, he must hold on to what matters most. Don't give up on your dreams. Say goodbye to a Canadian comedy we've grown up with. Son of a Critch, the final season.

Stream now on CBC Jam. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. With a like-minded partner like Europe, where we have very strong complementarities, Canada and Europe, there's a huge opportunity for both of us to build our sovereignty, build our prosperity. The Prime Minister has had a busy week. As the trade war with the United States continues, Mark Carney is pushing for Canada to have closer ties to Europe. He will take that pitch for what he calls a unique alliance,

to the European Parliament later this week. But first, he's hosting day two of the Canada Investment Summit in Toronto, pitching hundreds of the world's biggest investors on major Canadian projects. This is all, as you know, part of his attempt to diversify away from a reliance on the United States. As Canada looks to build closer ties to Europe, what does this mean for Canada's relationship with the U.S. And how should Canada align itself in an evolving global order? To talk about that, I'm joined in our Toronto studio by Bruce Heyman, Former U.S. Ambassador to Canada under President Barack Obama.

He is also the CEO of Power Sustainable. It's a Montreal company that is at the Investment Summit. He's with me now. Good morning. Good morning. Nice to see you. Good to be back. Let me start with something I saw on social media. You have a new hat.

Your hat says something about... Oh, my new hat. That's correct. Tell me about your hat, which is about a lake not so far away from where we sit right now. Sure, Lake Ontario, which I have grown to enjoy and love and experience. You know, look, it is a statement in and of itself. And the statement in and of itself is I always viewed this as Lake Ontario, and I always will view it as like Ontario.

And look, the idiosyncrasies of what we're experiencing in Washington are, let's call it, unique. For many, it's unsettling. for those in the United States experiencing all of this, you know, some days we look for this, when will this pass? And so I just am looking for ways without going, you know, directly at any one individual or any one thing is to show my support for Canada in every way, shape, and form. And, you know, I spent a lifetime working in Canada, both in the business community

and running a business in Chicago with Goldman Sachs and working directly with Canada. I then was U.S. ambassador, as you know, wrote a book about our Canada relationship and now run a business out of Montreal, power sustainable. And all of that leads me in an incredible fondness for Canada, but it's not just fondness. I believe the U.S. is stronger with Canada, and I think Canada is stronger with the U.S. And so we're going to have to get through this moment. And these are just quiet ways of my standing up. That's an argument.

The idea that the U.S. is stronger with Canada that does not seem to square with what you hear out of the current administration. What do you make of the argument from the Trump administration? The protectionism is necessary to shore up America manufacturing. Bring those jobs back to the United States. So it's a complicated issue. And there's some aspects to that that ring true with a lot of Americans, especially those that have lost. their job or are struggling. And the complications of international trade aren't, you know, easily understood by many Americans or Canadians, for that matter. As I've told people up here in

Canada is, do you know most Americans, if they close their eyes and say, what do you buy from Canada? And they might say, oh, a Molson beer. They might say a Canada, Canada goose jacket or buy something online. But for the most part, it's hard for the understand. And here you are the number one, two or three trading partner in any given year. And so what Canada makes and supplies are the components and the inputs for almost everything Americans have. But it's not readily visible or understandable by the average American. But to your point, some of that protectionism is embraced by people who feel like their jobs were taken away by globalization, that they wonder why cars are being made in Canada or in Mexico

and not perhaps in the United States. Do you really believe that after, for example, the midterms or after Donald Trump leaves office, that things will go back to normal when it comes to that trading relationship? So we're in a new normal now? So whatever normal was that we experienced before, it's not going back to the same. We all don't go back to where we were.

I ask in part, pardon my interruption, but I ask in part because you have people like Gavin Newsom who could very well be running for the Democrats in the presidential election saying that he can't guarantee. that there will be no tariffs in terms of the economic relationship between our two countries. I think to a lot of Canadians that suggests that maybe this isn't about Donald Trump, it's about the United States, right? So we have another problem in the United States, and that problem is that we have a lot of debt

and we have a budget deficit that is growing out of control. Any new president, whoever he or she is, will be faced with those same budgetary problems. And they'll probably have made a lot of promises in their campaign to deliver all kinds of goodies to the American public. To do that, they're going to sit down and walk into the Oval Office and say, I don't believe in tariffs. Let's get rid of them. And they'll say, Mr. President, or Madam President, whoever it is, they'll say, you know,

that's a $500 billion hole that if we stop the tariffs around the world. And we've got to fill that. And you want to fulfill all these other needs. So I do think tariffs are going to be sticky and be very difficult for whatever future president to unwind. Do you understand in the face of that why? why Canada would look abroad, that it would look to Europe and other nations as well, to say we need to figure out, as I said, a new dance partner,

that maybe this old relationship isn't working and we need to figure out other people that we can work with. I think the strength of Canada is it isn't a new dance partner, but Canada has been able to dance with multiple partners around the world. And so it isn't just a substitution because even while I was ambassador, Canada was entering into trade agreements with multiple countries all around the world. But this is a different moment it feels like. When the prime minister says that the old relationship, in his words, is over, that suggests that it's a different moment. It is a, I totally agree with him on that.

It is a different moment. And that's why we're here today with all of these investors coming in. When I traveled around the world talking about investing in Canada, I would say prior to this moment, it used to be, I invest in North America, I'm good. U.S., Canada is kind of all the same. And now it's changed. And there's definitely an interest around the world to invest in Canada as a separate entity from the United States and unique. And this is a moment that the prime minister is galvanizing all these investors together and where we have power sustainable, have raised our hand and said, we'll commit to this because I do think it's one of the most incredible investment moments that I've

seen in my professional career, 30 plus years of Goldman Sachs, running an investment firm here in Canada. Look, we can allocate assets anywhere in the world. But I think the moment is a Canada moment. I think it's going to be incredible. If the prime minister is pledging to build closer ties with Europe, for example, what damage do you think that could do with an already tense relationship with the United States? You have a president who is posting memes of him as a hockey player pounding on the prime minister on the ground calling him governor, saying get up, governor. Do you think that the prime minister taking these moves could exacerbate that already tense relationship? So look, I don't know what triggers the president and makes him behave the way he does.

But I will tell you this. I think a strong Canada economically is in the United States' best interest. And of course, we're next door neighbors. And supply chains and ability to move goods, you know, I think is so easy relative to other places in the world that the lift for the prime minister and others is to develop diversification for the country and develop new infrastructure that allow him to do that. I still think that that's good for the United States long term, and I don't think that that's bad.

And developing more relationships, this isn't, I think diversification doesn't mean substitution. And, you know, I've been in the investment world. I always believe in diversification of one's portfolio. And so I don't think anything he's doing should be a threat to the United States. Let me just ask you finally. You spent a lot of time here in Canada. Canadians, I think it's fair to say. We did a call in across this country six hours talking to Canadians last week.

They're angry. They're bewildered. They're resilient. They want to stand up for their country. And they don't trust the United States in some ways. What is the way back to building some sort of relationship with your country? where this country can trust the United States. First of all, let me say this.

As this former ambassador sitting across from you, I completely understand how Canadians feel, and I think it's completely appropriate given the situation that they're in. Trust, as they say, comes in footsteps and leaves on horseback. But trust rebuilt is a really hard thing to do, and it's going to take a lot of effort

for a lot of Americans like myself who care about this relationship. relationship so deeply to work hard on the repair of some of these feelings and some of the emotions and some of the way that we, the way that we get along. And real economic damage as well. Real. People's jobs. Yes. And it's a serious, it's a very serious moment. And I'm doing everything I can of power sustainable to create jobs, to make investments to do things that are beneficial to Canada, but also beneficial to our investors. But at the same time, I'm also, when we started this conversation about my wearing a lake ontario hat i'm doing everything that i can in every way

to express my care and love for this country i'm an american uh but there are americans living all throughout canada there there are more than a million dual citizens we're family together this isn't just um a relationship of trade and yes we are next door neighbors but we are family and everybody who's listening to this broadcast knows somebody who is related to an american and and in the United States, somebody who's related to a Canadian. In fact, I married a woman whose family was originally from, came through Canada and immigration. I care about this country deeply,

and it's going to take a lot of work to rebuild that trust, and I recognize that. It's good to have you here. Thank you very much. It's good to be here. Bruce Heyman is the former U.S. ambassador to Canada. He's with me in our Toronto studio. Two roads diverged in a wood,

and I took the road less traveled. After all the awkwardness, disasters, and family drama, Mark Critch, is finally graduating. Maybe it's about not settling for the way things are, but making your own way. No, it's both jobs. And to move forward, he must hold on to what matters most. Don't give up on your dreams. Say goodbye to a Canadian comedy we've grown up with.

Son of a Critch, the final season. Stream now on CBC Jam. Jean Charette is a partner at Terien Couture Jolikour, and a member of the Advisory Committee on Canada, U.S. Economic, relations. He, of course, is the former Premier of Quebec as well. Jean-Shaire, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt, and good morning to the investor. It's good to have you here. What do you make just of Bruce Heyman's comments about the future of this relationship between Canada and the United States? Can we get back to where we were, or are we

looking at some sort of new normal? Well, first of all, I mean, Bruce represents what the United States has in terms of our relationship, or the best of what we've had. And that's an important point because as we deal with this situation, it's very important that we distinguish between the administration and the American people. And we're very lucky to live next door to each other and to live in this neighborhood of the world. And so Bruce represents the best of what we know about the United States. Now, in terms of the relationship, he's right. We're not going to return to what it was before. but we and we need to evolve and move in now a new direction for the country.

And I'm among those, Matt, who believe that if we get this right in regards to President Trump, we are going to thank him in 20 years from now for having shaken us from our lethargy and forced us to have a hard look at ourselves, our country, how we're going to build Canada. And part of that story is moving into the direction of more, more intensively. a better and stronger relationship with other partners, and the first among them would be Europe. The Wall Street Journal reported this weekend the idea of Canada becoming an associate member of the European Union has been floated. The Prime Minister says that isn't on the table. But would you want to see that relationship between Canada and Europe formalized? Would you want to see that step to become an associate member?

Well, I just don't know what it means if we become an associate member, and that would be new and it would be something that would be created. We do not want to seed sovereignty, but we do have a lot in common, more than what people see at first glance. And I'll give you an example. The Greenland episode really, really talked to, was concerned Canada. Greenland physically, Matt, is right next door to Canada physically and geographically. And so whether it's Greenland, defense, and part of the European Safe program, which is a new program they put forward to develop their defense industry. And whether it's labor mobility, for example. I did an agreement with France in 208 about labor mobility. It's the most advanced

in the world. The idea, Matt, was that a doctor in France is a doctor in Quebec, an engineer in France, and to make it as seamless as possible for people to move from one place to the other. Now, let's look into the future. We need talent. We need people to come to this country to help us build Canada. We have an aging population. We're not making as many children as before. These are all the things that we need to look at into the future and with which we could partner with Europe so that we can build a country that's going to be more competitive. Geography is an impediment many people will say to this. We are an ocean away from Europe in many ways. And so you can have philosophical ties and look at some issues of labor mobility. But the suggestion is that the Prime Minister

is looking at something much deeper, particularly when it comes to resources. How do you think about that in terms of the geographical impediments? Well, here, you know, the reality is we have a lot that Europe needs, whether it's energy, critical minerals, which they need a lot. And there's cooperation in areas because Canada, even if we're blessed with natural resources, we tend to forget we are a knowledge-based economy. So there's sectors like aerospace or satellites, AI, or quantum computing where we're cooperating, or digital policies, for example, where we need to find partners with whom we can design policies

that make sense for our own people and have a common policy initiative that will counterbalance what the United States wants to do. So geography is important, but it should not be an impediment. to us intensifying your relationships with Europe. You raise the issue of sovereignty. There are many Canadians. Most Canadians, I think, right now, they're feeling pretty protective

of this country's sovereignty right now. Do you worry about deepening ties to Europe impacting our sovereignty? I'm not concerned. I think Europe and Canada have a similar outlook on what it is to be a sovereign country. And they have created a unique market

so that they could be a more, that they could, way more in the world. What they've created in the European Union is quite unique. And bear in mind, this is, it's 450 million people. This is the richest consumer market in the world. Europe is the most taken as a block is the most important trading partner of the United States. And so in our case, this is an opportunity of deepening ties while protecting our sovereignty. And we're not facing a partner who's trying to overrun our sovereignty. They don't see us as a vassal.

They rather they see us as a real partner who have things that they need and we have things that they have to offer that we also need. This is a part of the Prime Minister's message about the changing world order and he advocates for middle-sized countries like ours to ban together.

How do you see this country's place in the world? Well, Canada has a unique opportunity to lead on this. And this is what the Prime Minister is doing, you know, what we call middle powers. And by the way, it's a very large definition. You could throw in India for that, for that matter. But what are the middle powers we're talking about? It's all those who are not superpowers, Matt. Actually, it's not the United States. It's not China. And what we have to create, which is new and never been done before, is a new architecture of

trade and relationships among these countries that does not allow or does not, is not in reaction or is not dominated by a superpower. And so Canada's role in the world, which the Prime Minister has chosen to take on, is to lead this conversation, to bring it about. I'll give you a concrete example. I know the Prime Minister thinks or anticipates there could be a trade agreement between the European bloc

and CPPPP, the Asian countries. That would be new. That would be unprecedented. And here is where Canada has an opportunity to lead because we're trusted and we have a record of being a country that respects its agreements, that can offer the world things that they need. And in that respect, this is a new role for Canada.

If we choose to take that up, if we choose to lead, and that's what I'm hoping, and that's what I see the prime minister doing. We just have a minute or so left. Let's end with where we started. And part of it is where I started with Bruce Heyman, his Lake Ontario hat. You talked about countries that want to dominate. us, countries that threaten our sovereignty. What do you envision our relationship will look like with the United States and future? They will always be our most important trading partner.

That will not change. This administration will pass, though they will leave behind them, a legacy that is going to change the relationship. What about that issue of trust? Well, that's going to be a difficult one into the future. But we're, as Bruce Heyman has just mention, I will rebuild it. My faith lies in the fact that the American people are great. Their friends, their allies, we're very lucky to live next to each other. And at the end of the day, no matter who is in government, they are not going to change that relationship we have of the American people. So we're going to have to be patient and rebuild. And I'm confident that we'll be able to do that, Matt. That patience is going to take some fortitude, though, right?

I mean, there's a lot to get over, I think, for a lot of Canadians. Yes, and very honest conversations. We are not a vassal state of the United States. And when we talk about alignment, it doesn't mean doing everything the United States wants us to do. It's about us agreeing on common objectives and a common vision. So we have to return to that conversation. Really glad to have you here as part of this conversation. Jean Chalet, thank you very much.

Thank you, Matt. Jean Choréryry is a partner at Terry and Couture Jolikour, member of the Advisory Committee on Canada, U.S. economic relations, and of course, a former Premier of Quebec. He was in Montreal. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name's Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca slash podcasts.