The Current - Electing a pope is like The Traitors, says Conclave author Robert Harris

Episode Date: May 7, 2025

Robert Harris got rare access to the Vatican as he was writing Conclave, the novel that inspired the 2024 film starring Ralph Fiennes. He joins Matt Galloway to dig into what will happen behind closed doors as cardinals convene today to elect the next pope — and explains why the group dynamics aren't that different from a reality TV show.

1942, Europe. Soldiers find a boy surviving alone in the woods. They make him a member of Hitler's army. But what no one would know for decades, he was Jewish. Could a story so unbelievable be true? I'm Dan Goldberg. I'm from CBC's personally, Toy Soldier. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. Just over two weeks after the death of Pope Francis, the Catholic Church is set to select a new Bishop of Rome. That person

is also known as the Pope. Cardinals from around the world have gathered in Vatican City for the conclave which begins today. Robert Harris's novel Conclave unfolds after a Pope's death as Cardinals convene to elect his successor. It explores the inner workings of the Vatican and paints a portrait of power, corruption, and devotion. That novel inspired last year's movie of the same

name, which took home the Oscar for best adapted screenplay. Robert Harris joins me now. Robert, good morning. Good morning. I think there are many of us who think we know what's going to happen over the next few days because of your novel and the film that followed. How closely do you think what you depict mirrors what will unfold in this conclave? Well, in terms of procedure,

I think it's pretty accurate. I tried to make it as accurate as I could. The Vatican publishes the rules for a conclave and I spoke to a cardinal who'd been involved in one. And so the things that happen in the movie, once the doors are closed and everyone has been forced to leave apart from the cardinals, I think all that is pretty accurate. The process of voting, the precision of the ballots, how often they're held and so on. They'll have a first ballot this afternoon and that won't produce a pope unless there's some kind of miracle. There will be a lot of votes for a lot of unknown cardinals. It's said that

sometimes people vote for themselves or they vote for their best friend. And then the real business starts when they get back to the hostel tonight and then tomorrow morning when they have the second ballot. As a journalist and a writer, what was it, you were inspired to write this in part by the last conclave that produced Francis. What was it that you saw in that moment

that got you thinking, there's more to this story that I want to unpack? Well, I was watching the live TV coverage and the world was waiting for whoever had been elected to appear on the balcony overlooking St. Peter's Square. And just before the new pope appears, the windows on either side, high windows, filled with the faces of the cardinal electors who've come along to watch the new pope show himself And the camera panned along and showed the faces

And there were all these elderly men Crafty, benign, cunning, tired, exultant And I was writing novels about Cicero, and I thought that is the Roman Senate. That's what it would have looked like. And it made me think this had been a political process. It would be fascinating to find out how it operated, which is what I then set out to do.

I mean, one of the things, and it's obvious, but one of the things that's so interesting is that we live in this hyper ultra connected world and you have these men who are sealed into the space and they are unable to connect. What strikes you about that? Well, that's really part of the fascination, undoubtedly. The Cardinals will have had their mobile phones and laptops taken off them. They go into bedrooms where the windows are sealed.

Communication with the outside world is impossible. And so it has a kind of mystery to begin with. I can't think of any other political process which proceeds like this. You're also locked into one of the jewels of the Renaissance beneath the Sistine Chapel ceiling, looking at Michelangelo's Day of Judgment above the altar. It was built for this purpose. It has an intensity of experience, both spiritual and political, that is unmatched anywhere on Earth. You said something strange happens, these are your words,

something strange happens when you put 130 men together in a room and force them to make a decision. What is that strange thing? Well, I think it's to do with the psychology of a crowd. There's a very good book by Elias kinetic about about crowds and how different differently they react and the conclave is a small crowd and An emotion can seize a crowd a group of men, especially if they're locked away That can move them one way or another quite quickly a rather facetiously compared it to the

another quite quickly. I rather facetiously compared it to the television reality show Traitors. I don't know whether you have that in Canada. I've seen that, yeah. Yeah, you know the way in which everyone gathers around the table and then quite suddenly someone is picked on and suddenly everyone else follows the lead. It's a sort of human psychology. And this is I think what happens in the in the conclave it In a secular world and secular politics, we would call it momentum In the religious world, they call it the action of the Holy Spirit Either way, it's a sudden feeling of consensus Of course to a degree because everyone's quite anxious to get out of being locked up. I think it's interesting. I mean, we're talking about the men, but in your book, anybody who's

read it knows that the nuns who cook can clean and take care of these men are also incredibly important. What should we remember about them? Well, when I set out to write the book, I read the Gospels all the way through for the first time and was powerfully overwhelmed by the Christian message, by the radicalism of Christ message, the pacifism, the anti-wealth, the welcoming of strangers. And when you compare it to the to the church you think that this is completely opposite. There are no Cardinals anywhere in the Bible. And it got me thinking, and I thought how weird it is that half the world's population are excluded from any meaningful role in the church. Would Christ really have wanted that?

I wanted to put female characters in the novel, but the only ones plausibly who are present during a conclave are the women, the nuns who are serving the food, cleaning the rooms, and running the hostel where the cardinals stay. So I really wanted to make them, one in particular, who is played by Isabella Rossellini in the film, actors in the whole drama. This is, and you've hinted at this, I mean, it's an election, but it's not an election. And you've said that in some ways this is sacred and profane. What did you mean by that?

And in thinking about the fact that ultimately this is an election. It is an election, and the Ramacaffek Church has 1.4 million, a billion followers. It's immensely wealthy, it has huge global reach. The pope is the supreme ruler of the church, is God's representative on earth. This is a contested election. It centers any disputes that may arise in the conclave or settle, center around doctrine. Well, some of the doctrines of the Catholic Church on abortion, birth control, the role of women, a place of homosexuals in society, assisted dying, these are highly political, live issues. So to say that somehow this isn't a political event seems to me crazy.

Of course it is, it affects people who aren't even members of the Catholic faith. And you know, some people genuinely don't want to be Pope, but there are some who do, and they have their supporters, and it's an election. That can lead to, I mean, as with any election, a lot of scheming, a lot of deceit, backstabbing, injury. How much of that, maybe not the backstabbing, but how much of that scheming and deceit do you think actually happens in the conclave? Well, I started to research the book, wondering what on earth happened, because I didn't know anything about it. Most people still don't.

And the election that I studied was the election that brought Cardinal Ransinger into the paper seat, who became Pope Benedict. Benedict was the Dean of the College of Cardinals, like the hero of the novel. He was the Arch-conservative. For many years it had been thought that the Archbishop of Milan, a man named Martini, would be the next Pope. But on the first ballot and then the second ballot his votes were not good and his supporters, the liberals, switched to this unknown Argentinian cardinal Bergoglio who got up to about 30 or 40 votes, sufficient

to block potentially the conclave, and he said, I don't want this anymore. I don't want it, and I don't want to split the church. And Benedict was elected on the next ballot. The moment I read that, it gave me three characters immediately. And I simply went on and expanded from there. So whether one calls it backstabbing or perhaps more politely maneuvering, it certainly goes on. We live in a world of wagering, where you can bet on just about anything. Do you think it's better to put a flutter on a complete unknown

or a frontrunner in a situation like this? Well, it is very rare that the media spots who's going to win. And indeed, being tipped in the media as a favorite is often, puts a target on your back and is counterproductive. I mean, it's an interesting question in part because, and this is a spoiler alert, but in your novel, a complete unknown becomes Pope. Yes, defeating a Canadian Cardinal. Yeah, it is possible.

I mean, John Paul I, no one expected him to be elected Pope, least of all himself. Nobody really expected John Paul II, Cardinal Wojtyla, except possibly Cardinal Wojtyla, who is one of the few men I think you can look at and say, yes, he really wanted it. So, you'll be better to put your money on a horse race than on the conclave. Pete You'll be watching, I'm sure. Do you expect, just before I let you go, I mean, the last couple of conclaves have been very short, just a couple of days for Benedict and Francis.

Are you expecting this to be over quickly or will those discussions and negotiations and maneuverings continue for days on end? Well, this is where I think the wisdom of the church and psychology is so interesting. There's a vote this afternoon, the first ballot, then two ballots tomorrow morning and two tomorrow afternoon.

It will be surprising if we don't have a result tomorrow afternoon after four or five ballots. If it goes into Friday, then I think that people could legitimately start to say there's a real dispute in the church here. If they don't reach a verdict by Friday evening, then they spend Saturday in prayer not voting and don't resume voting till Sunday. Well, a lot of them have been in Rome a long time now after the funeral. Friday would be a very nice day for them to get out and go home and I think that that will concentrate minds.

I don't want to be cynical, but I think it will. What a great pleasure to talk to you. Robert Harris, thank you very much. Thank you. Robert Harris is the author of the 2016 novel, Conclave. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.