The Current - Family pleads for missing siblings Lilly and Jack Sullivan

Episode Date: July 18, 2025

Two young siblings, Lilly and Jack Sullivan, went missing in rural Nova Scotia in May, and the case has shaken the country. Two months later, police are still looking for answers — and the siblings. CBC’s Kayla Hounsell brings us updates from their family members’ retelling of what happened that day, and the police.

There are two kinds of Canadians. Those who feel something when they hear this music. And those who've been missing out so far. I'm Chris Howden. And I'm Nile Coxall. We are the co-hosts of As It Happens. And every day we speak with people at the center of the day's most hard hitting, heartbreaking, and sometimes hilarious news stories.

Also, we have puns. Here Why As It Happens is one of Canada's longest running and most beloved shows. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. Search teams going to the Garelock location while we try and locate a G-SAR commander. It has been two and a half months since that search began for two young children who disappeared in rural Nova Scotia and there is still no trace of them.

Six-year-old Lily and four-year-old Jack Sullivan were reported missing from their home by their mother and stepfather. A massive search ensued. A lot of area to cover. We're out in the sticks here. You're very familiar. search ensued. Crews scoured dense woods for 10 days. They found what they believed to be a child's boot print and a piece of a blanket, but nothing else. At least, not that the police will say publicly. It's a mystery that is gripping the country and beyond. I know that everybody basically in the world at this point is always wanting to know what happened.

Now, for the first time, we're hearing from the children's step-grandmother, who lives on the property where the children went missing, and who was there that day. My bedroom is right there. I heard the kids. After that, I heard nothing. The next thing I know, or the next thing I heard, is I heard Daniel yelling. Her son Daniel, the children's stepfather, is the subject of murderous accusations. Well, a lot of speculation is you killed the kids.

It was come out and say it straight as it is. His mother is showing us around their property to dispel rumors as conspiracy theories run wild online with TikTok and YouTube videos garnering millions of views. These are everybody's grandchildren. They're not just mine now. It does seem like the whole world cares. Kayla Hansel is the CBC's national reporter from the maritime provinces. She's done a series of in-depth interviews on the case.

Good morning. Good morning, Megan. Kayla, first of all, what can you tell us about where this happened? Set the scene for us. So the children were reported missing from a mobile home in Lansdowne Station where they were living with their mother and stepfather. There's an RV parked next to it and that's where the children's step-grandmother lives. There are some toys in the yard, a tipped over red wagon in the front, handmade wooden

swing set in the back. And this is an extremely rural part of the province in Pictou County, around 140 kilometers northeast of Halifax. And I can tell you, I've been a reporter in Nova Scotia for 16 years now, so you can imagine, I've been to a lot of small communities, and I don't think I've seen anything quite this rural. There are no close neighbors,

there are not many neighbors at all, and the home is surrounded by very dense woods. Now, for people who have not been following this closely, can you remind us how this all started? It was on May 2nd, right? That's right. It's the morning of Friday, May 2nd, so exactly 11 weeks ago today.

And most of the information that we have about those first hours comes from the children's stepfather, Daniel Martel. I spoke with him in a recorded interview for nearly an hour and he says he and the children's mother, Malaya Brooks Murray, were in bed with their other child, a baby, and they were sort of dozing in and out of sleep and Lily and Jack were playing in the kitchen, but Lily came into the bedroom multiple times and woke him up. And here's what he says happened next.

And then about 20 minutes passed. And then when I woke up, Malia was right beside me. She was still asleep. And I said, I don't hear Lily and Jack so I jumped straight up out of bed. Silence is never a good thing when you have kids because you know they're getting into something and then we noticed the boots were gone we went outside made our way into the backyard we didn't see them anywhere and Malaya said should I call 911 and I said said, well, just wait one second. I ran up in the woods to the kids, they have cabins up in the woods,

it's about, I don't know, 100 feet up in the woods. Ran up there, ran right back down, so it only took me like 30 seconds. And I was screaming for Lily and Jack, you know, all the way out when I was running up to the cabins. And my mother heard me, so she came out and said, you know, what's going on? And I said, you know, Lily and Jack are missing. And so the RCMP says it was around 10 a.m. when they received the 911 call. They won't

say exactly what time. Now, we just heard Martel mentioning his mother. What have we learned from her? Well, as you mentioned earlier, she was there the day Lily and Jack went missing. She's never spoken publicly until this interview with my colleague. Her name is Janie McKenzie, and she had basically given Martel and his young family the mobile home and was living in the RV parked next to the house. She says she very much thought of Lily and Jack as her grandchildren, says they called her granny, and have been part of her family for two years.

She describes them as two very different children. Janie McKenzie Jack's the one that if he didn't want to do something, he didn't do it. And he was a curious boy. He stayed out here and that's all he did was look for bugs and worms. And Lily, she was always running around screaming and hollering. I observed those kids for two years. They were part of my life for two years.

What does Janie say about what happened that day? JANIE – Well, she says that morning her brother called her at 848 local time. She has the timestamp on her phone. She says she spoke with him and then went back to bed. But then she heard her dog barking and she heard Lily and Jack. She didn't see them but says she heard them. And she says it was around 10 minutes after that call with her brother, so around 9 a.m. now, that she heard her son yelling for Lily and Jack. Now she didn't go outside immediately, but when she did a short time later, she saw Malaya, the children's mother, standing there with the baby. And it was her who told Janie that Lily and Jack

were missing and had been for about 20 minutes. And she says ever since then, baseless stories have been swirling about her family. All the rumors and accusations about us murdering the kids and burying them on the property, this place has been searched thoroughly, thoroughly. The well has been checked, the septic tank has been sucked out. All the barns were searched. My RV was searched three times. The trailer was searched. This whole place was searched. If they want to come back and search again, they're more than welcome. So, it sounds like a significant search of the property. What else can you tell us about that?

Well, yes, it has certainly been significant. The initial search was six days. The six-year-old is the girl I believe and she's wearing pink. The four-year-old is wearing some blue dinosaur boots. So yeah, I think that's all we kind of have right now. Then on May 7th, the police announced that they're scaling back the search, taking into account the probability of survival. But search crews returned for two more weekends after that, up account the probability of survival. But search crews returned for two more weekends after that, up until the end of May. They searched wells, mineshafts, septic systems, as we heard, and they even flew a drone beneath the home. No sign of Lily and Jack. Police say they did find a boot print that they believe to be child-sized.

And there's something else. Have a listen to this. Family has brought us to a location there not far away that there's a piece of a blanket which the mother says she believes it belongs to her daughter. It's just off the road here. And just this week, police told us they are now conducting a forensic examination of that blanket. And what kind of conditions were the searchers dealing with as they're trying to locate traces of the children? It's a good question, Megan, because you may remember three years ago there was a really damaging storm that crashed through the Atlantic provinces. Post-tropical storm Fiona. And this area where Lily and Jack lived was among the

hardest hit areas of Nova Scotia, so there is still a lot of debris, down trees, massive trees, and just overall very thick brush throughout this search area. So they're literally pushing through all of this stuff just to get in. So I asked the search manager Amy Hansen to take me into the woods so I could really get a sense of it. Um this is actually fairly mild compared to some of the areas. It does look like a mess and you got the thorn bushes and the dead falls but there's places that are actually a lot worse. Hey I'm Jill Deacon and I'm excited to share my new podcast with you. A Love Affair with the Unknown is conversations with smart, funny people navigating life's unknowns with courage and candor, something we could all use during these wildly uncertain

times. Me and I started to cry and I realized I haven't dealt with anything. My family's motto was, I'm not going to be able to handle that. KS – Listen and subscribe to A Love Affair with the Unknown wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Tuesday. In total, crews searched through all of that for 10 days and 12,000 hours. 12,000. Hansen says that's basically unheard of in this province. She's been involved with Search and Rescue for 22 years and says it's the biggest search she's ever been involved in. A lot of the commentary online about this case is that the kids, is that kids don't just disappear, that if the children were in the woods they would have been found. What does Amy Hanson think?

Yes, I have heard that so often. So I did ask her what she thinks, especially given her experience. And she says she does believe they're in the woods. From everything I've seen, yes, I have not been told anything to lead me to any other conclusion at this point. Why can't you find them? They're small. They'd be hiding. they would have crawled underneath something probably when they got tired, they could have gone further than what we searched. There's all kinds of scenarios unfortunately. Okay so the search manager thinks they're in the woods which at this advanced point would be a terrible outcome but I gather not everybody agrees. Certainly not. In fact, many people we've spoken with have a different theory about what happened to these children.

In some cases, that's based on information they have, and in some cases, just a feeling. But their step-grandmother, Janie Mackenzie, says she is sure those kids are not in those woods. I've observed those kids for two years. We went for walks in those woods. I've observed those kids for two years. We went for walks in the woods. I had to practically drag Carey Jack through the woods because there was no way that he was walking through all that tree falls and bushes. So, assuming they're not in the woods, what are the other theories of what happened to them?

Megan, I have heard so many ideas about that, and, you know, we're not going to wade into all the other theories of what happened to them? Megyn, I have heard so many ideas about that and you know we're not going to wade into all the conspiracy theories here, but this is part of why various family members have been dealing with accusations. Martel, the children's stepfather, certainly acknowledges this is all very mysterious and just sounds kind of odd to a lot of people. He says he knows the public suspects him. He says the police did too at the start, but he doesn't think they do anymore. He says he immediately handed over his phone, showed them his banking info, his GPS history, and offered to take a polygraph test. And the RCMP took him up on that.

I was extremely nervous. Especially with the first question I asked you, did you kill Lillian Jag? That was the first question I asked you, did you kill Lillian Jack? That was the first question I asked you. Yeah. And Martel says the police told him he did pass the polygraph. Now he also acknowledges that Child Protective Services did visit the house prior to the disappearance. He says the visit was prompted by teachers who were concerned about the children's

behaviour at school and social workers wanted to meet them to see if they could get them in to be tested for autism. He says that testing was supposed to take place in May, the month they disappeared. Now we know polygraphs are not considered reliable, so what are the police saying about the case? Well they're being pretty tight-lipped. We know they have now interviewed more than 60 people in relation to this case. They have maintained since the very early days that they have no evidence to suggest the children were abducted. There was no amber alert, which some have been critical of, but the RCMP maintains this

case does not meet the criteria. Hello. Hi, Kayla. How are you doing? Good. Nice to see you. Nice to meet you. Thanks for making the time. Hello. Hi, Kayla. How are you doing? Good. Nice to see you. Nice to meet you.

Thanks for making the time. Thank you. I had a chance to speak with Corporal Guillaume Trombley. He's not an investigating officer, but he speaks for the force in Nova Scotia, and he did acknowledge how unique this case is. You know, it's quite rare that in my career I've never seen two missing children go at the same time. Was anything found in any of these searches that was deemed to be of significance?

Even if you can't tell me what it was, anything of significance? So I can tell you that the investigation is ongoing and that we haven't found any evidence to show that there was an adoption of the children. So you don't think they were abducted, but you can't find them. How do two young children just vanish? That's a great question, Kayla. And we are asking for the public for tips and information. And the police did release a short update

just a couple of days ago to say they're reviewing 5,000 video files. The force has received more than 600 tips, some that have taken them elsewhere in the country. The Nova Scotia Major Crime Unit is now being assisted by RCMP in New Brunswick and Ontario. But the RCMP says the only confirmed sighting of Jack and Lily was the day before they disappeared in Nova Scotia.

Lylea Kinn And I understand the Nova Scotia government is also offering a reward for information. Carly Larkin That's right. The government is offering a reward for up to $150,000 for information leading to Lily and Jack being found. The province announced the award about a month and a half after the children disappeared. It's a bit unusual insofar as this is a reward typically used to bring to light information that can lead to arrests and convictions in specific unsolved major crimes, mostly homicides. And of course, we don't know if a crime has even been committed here. With the police maintaining, there is no evidence to suggest the children have been abducted. But the Justice Minister says the program can include missing people and also cited the global

attention on this case when she announced that reward money. Danielle Pletka So quite unusual. We've heard from the children's stepfather and his mother. What can you tell us about what the children's mother is saying? Well, not much we have not been able to speak with her at all during the past two and a half months Which of course is her choice We do know she left the home in Lansdowne Station the day after Lily and Jack Disappeared to be with her mother in another part of the province But Martel says she is no longer with her mother in another part of the province. But Martel says she is no longer with her mother.

Her mother has told CBC News the RCMP told them not to speak with news reporters. The RCMP said it just advised people to be mindful of the information they share. And Janie Mackenzie is pleading with the children's mother to speak publicly. I can't make it come open. Please, if you have a heart for these kids, please come out and tell us what happened or what you think happened. Shed some light on this. Well, so that's a pretty emotional plea. What about the children's biological father? Have you been able to speak with him? I haven't been able to speak with him directly, but we have learned his story because we've

been able to speak with his mother, Belinda Gray, the children's grandmother. And this is my favorite picture, the first day of school. Why is that one your favorite? Because they both look so, so happy. And I got to spend a bit of time with her. We sat in her yard, a beautiful yard with hummingbird feeders all around. She spends quite a bit of time there. It's how she's been managing this terrible situation.

And she was happy to show me photos of Lily and Jack and share her memories. She'd always dress up in my hat and my glasses when she comes. She was a little mini-me. She wanted to be just like you. Wanted to be just like me. Jack is a very sober little boy, very intent. And while we were there sitting in the yard, she also talked about how there have been all kinds of rumors circulating about how her son is supposedly out west and in jail.

And she says he's never been out west. He's never been in jail. CBC News has confirmed he has no criminal record and he's currently living with her. Now she acknowledges that he hasn't seen the children in three years. She maintained a relationship for some time, seeing the children a couple of times a month. But she says that changed when their mother met Martel. And she hadn't seen them for nearly two years before they went missing. Hmm. Kayla, did Belinda Gray say how she found out Lily and Jack went missing? Yes. She says she was out and about when she got a call from another family member asking if she had heard the news. And then in the middle of the night a couple of police cars pulled into her driveway, the lights waking her up. She knew why they were there of course. And they first wanted to make sure the kids weren't at her house.

The officers then came back a few days later to take pictures of the vehicles in their yard and then they went back a third time and formally questioned both Gray and her son which she says she was fine with but her son was a bit upset. But she says the police have since had contact again to tell her son they aren't looking his way anymore and that everything is fine there. So now she says she just has a message for the public. Just bring them home or let us know where to find them.

I just want them, I just want them to be found. At this point, I don't even care who did what. I just want to know that they're home. Kala, you've been a reporter for almost 20 years and I know you've covered a lot of court cases and crime. What stands out for you about this case? Well, I think there is more public interest in this story than almost any other story I've covered to be honest. It's the kind of story where everywhere I go, even socially, this is what everyone wants to talk to me about.

Family members from outside of Nova Scotia are texting me asking if I have any updates and I think that's because of course people are invested in the well-being of these two children and continue to hope for the best, but also because of the mysterious nature of the case. There are so many unanswered questions and as this stretches on two and a half months now, at least some of the people I've spoken with are considering the possibility that the mystery may never be solved, that we just may never get to find out what happened to Lily and Jack. Kayla, thanks for bringing us this story. Kayla Hanzel is the CBC's national reporter for the maritime provinces.

You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon.