The Current - Former ICE lawyer says the point of Trump’s ICE is to “engender fear”

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

There are calls for accountability after men in Florida, Texas and Maine were killed during incidents with Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agents. Peter Mina, a former lawyer at ICE and a former deputy officer for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties at the Department of Homeland Security, discusses concerns about ICE becoming the highest law enforcement agency in the country.

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This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. Hundreds of people in Biddeford, Maine, taking to the streets after immigration and customs enforcement agents fatally shot a man there on Monday. The Department of Homeland Security says the officers were fearing for public safety when a vehicle attempted to flee. But Maine's Democratic Congresswoman, Shelley Pingree, says it was a botched operation. By all accounts, he was the wrong man, not the person that ICE had been targeting. He was headed off to work, lived very close nearby, and there was a nice operation going on looking for someone else, but he was in the car. And by all accounts, certainly after the shooting, his wife and three-year-old daughter in her bluey pajamas with a pink backpack were also on the scene.

So they witnessed seeing their father's dead body. Three people have died in the past week after encounters with ICE. A 28-year-old man died on Tuesday morning after he fled from agents and was hit by a truck. And in Houston, Texas, a 52-year-old Mexican man was fatally shot by agents at a traffic stop. The CBC's Washington correspondent, Katie Nicholson, joins us now. Katie, good morning. Good morning. We heard a little bit there from the Congresswoman about what happened in May, but what more do we know? It appears to be an intersection of two paths here.

It's just somebody trying to go to work and an ice office. operation that went wrong. So we know that ICE was conducting. This operation was around 7 a.m. And this small town is about 30 kilometers south of Portland. This was just as John Sebastian Guerrero was leaving for work. He's a Colombian man, 26 years old. What we've heard is that he has a social security number, that he was just pulling away in his white Kia slowly. then there are videos that have emerged of ice agents alongside that car reaching for the door. And there's verified video of ice opening fire that has not yet emerged. But there are other videos that sort of capture the sound of those shots, five in total. There are multiple bullet holes you can see in the windshield of the car.

The Bangor Daily News, they have a video of Mr. Guerrero, his body being pulled from the car by agents. You can see that his body is limp and they handcuff him. And witnesses in the neighborhood, they expressed horror to reporters in the immediate aftermath. They described Guerrero's wife at the scene, absolutely gutted and traumatized with their three-year-old still in her bluey pajamas there as well. Now, as you noted, DHS, they said that they were conducting this targeted surveillance, as they put it, that they were going after, and this is their words, an illegal alien with a final removal order. and they were, they thought, at the last known address of this individual, and they say that an illegal alien departed the residence in a vehicle, so they are characterizing him as an illegal alien. Ice, they say, then attempted to conduct a vehicle stop, and then they say that the vehicle attempted to flee and that the officer was fearing for public safety, and that's why he discharged his weapon. But the response, that response, Pia, that has what's, it's what's fuel the outrage in the community in particular for what that statement did not say, which was that the officer's life was in immediate danger, which could justify use of deadly force.

And so that has also kicked off all of this protest that we have seen in Maine. Okay. And so, Katie, there are, seem to be conflicting reports, Homeland Security describing Joanne Sebastian Guerrero as an illegal alien. He is from Colombia, but he was. authorized to work in the United States. Yes? Yeah. So this is what immigration advocates immediately stepped up with information that he was on his way to work. He had a social security number. He was allowed to work. And what we heard from Senator Angus King, who was trying to get to the bottom of this, going directly to the Secretary of Homeland Security, Mark Wayne Mullen, he says he was told this man was not the target of this operation. He worked as a food delivery driver. Local restaurants knew him. They

described Guerrero as the kind of person who always asked how you were doing. and if you needed anything. And he was, interestingly enough, also so deeply affected by the killing of Renee Good last January in Minneapolis. You remember, she was shot by ICE agents as she was in her car. And basically, Guerrero had posted a response to this on his personal Facebook page at the time and saying, sadly, here you get paid for killing a person. And Katie, as I mentioned, he was not the only person killed by ICE agents.

this week. There are reports since those killings that ICE agents have been directed for the most part to halt all traffic stops and there are plans to equip each ICE team with an agent wearing a body camera. Tell us more about that. Right. So look, body worn cameras, this is a Biden era thing. They were supposed to be worn by all federal employees or federal officers. This was something they brought in for police reform. When Trump came into office by executive order, he got rid of that rule. But then, after what we, saw in Minneapolis, the killings of Alex Prattie and Renee Good, back in February, DHS said, okay, everybody's going to wear body-worn cameras from now on. But that has been slow. The uptake has been slow. Currently, only half of people have these cameras. And the two shootings that we have seen this week, right, the one in Houston and the one in Maine, the officers were not wearing body-worn cameras. So what has happened is now DHS, it says, in the next 60 days, everybody's going to have to wear these body-worn cameras.

Except to say, Katie, that the American president spoke out this morning at social media, and he has something to say about this. Yeah, he also has something to say about the traffic stops as well. So this process of having a traffic stop, we heard from DHS yesterday. They were going to temporarily suspend this because this is what happened in these two incidents. And we also heard from, I guess, Tom Holman, the czar that this is just going to be a very temporary measure. But Trump came out today on Truth Social, kind of refuting this and saying essentially that the people of ICE, you know, the traffic stop. This is one of our important fighting tools.

We cannot get rid of it. Once we do, we're playing right into the criminal's hands, he wrote. It goes on about radical left Democrats would like to see this done. It won't happen on my watch. She says, ice, be judicious, fair and smart, and go back and do your very important job. He said, keep those crime stats records coming, which also speaks to why this is such a, why we're seeing these numbers jump right now, right now. This is about statistics to him right now. And Katie, we are just a few months before U.S. midterm elections, and we know sometimes politics intersect with these kinds of issues.

We're seeing what seems like sort of a wrapping up of ice, but where do the politics intersect with? the timing of all this. Yeah, so think about all the bad PR they got after what happened in Minneapolis. And you see Secretary Nome sort of is done away with. She leaves. She wears it. You see Greg Bevino, the guy who was walking around his military pico, the border guy. He gets, they get rid of him. These are the people that were the face of that initial crackdown. But that crackdown never went away. It was kind of quiet under the surface. But this is something that is still very important to the administration. It's just been quieter. DHS is one of of the most well-funded parts of the government right now. They have resources. And there's still

this push within the administration. So just in the last month, over five days in June, there were about 10,000 arrests in a series of sweeps. This is something that is still very important to the Trump administration. And if you look at their feed on X today, they're not backing down here. They are touting a lot of their arrests of people, they say, are very serious offenders with illegal status as opposed to sort of addressing some of the larger questions here about the incident in Florida, the incident in Houston, the incident in Maine, where you're hearing the DA in Houston complaining because he's not getting information that he wants from federal authorities to conduct an investigation as to what happened there at that traffic stop shooting.

Okay, Katie, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Katie Nicholson is the CBC's Washington correspondent. With Google AI, Destination Canada is giving local. businesses the insights they need to grow. Together, we're helping boost tourism from coast to coast to coast. Innovation is Canada's story. Let's tell it together. Find out more at g.com slash Canadian Innovation. Hi, everybody. I'm Jamie Poisson and I host Front Burner. How many podcasts have you heard where people are searching out facts on the fly? Or where they just talk in circles and two hours later,

you're not really sure what you just learned. Well, Front Burner is not that. Five days a week, you get one story a day. It's deeply researched about 20 minutes long and hopefully we answer all the questions that you want asked. We do lots of Canadian news, but a wide range of topics too. Find and follow Front Burner wherever you get your podcasts. Peter Mina is an attorney who spent nearly a decade working at ICE followed by another six years as a deputy officer for civil rights and civil liberties at the Department of Homeland Security. He is now a civil rights lawyer and the founder and principal of the Mina firm in Washington, D.C. Peter, good morning to you. Good morning, Pia. Given your vast experience at both ICE and the DHS, what stands out to you

about these two deadly shootings in Houston and Maine? Well, I think, Pia, unfortunately, this is just a yet another indicator of how this administration has really devalued the human life of people attempting to enter this country. And I think what we see is, you know, you see, you, you, you, heard about the push for higher arrest numbers, you know, that's been the administration's signature issue almost from the beginning prior to his first term. And so that is going to be the overriding, you know, goal and mission almost above all else. I mean, even in the wake of, you know, these killings, you're seeing, you know, the president come out and say, no, no, no, we need to keep doing it because they're trying to send a very clear message, I think.

Angus King of Maine said he'd spoken with Homeland Security Secretary who confirmed to him that the 26-year-old Colombian man Guerrero, who was shot in Maine, was not the person ICE officers were targeting. There's similar reporting coming out of Houston. What does this suggest to your tell you, Peter, about how people are being profiled in the United States? Well, I think, you know, this goes back to, there's a couple factors at play. One, this goes back to the opinion from the Supreme Court last year by Justice Kavanaugh. that basically says, you know, if you're brown at home and at Home Depot, and I'm certainly oversimplifying a little bit, but, you know, you could be, you know, stopped by ICE in question about your status. And, you know, that has been, you know, very inconsistent with not only,

you know, constitutional principles, but even the department's own, you know, policies. And so I think now what you're also seeing is, and this is not, you know, new necessarily, you know, it's kind of gone back and forth, this idea that, you know, okay, if I'm pursuing a target and I happen to encounter someone that is also without status, I can certainly go ahead and, you know, detain or question that person. But what's happening here, it seems, is there is, you know, again, this push for thousands and thousands of arrest numbers per day. And I think, you know, one, I think that may be driving, you know, maybe a less rigorous, you know, process. of determining who actually the target is.

And then I think the other thing, too, is I understand the reporting, you know, this was a new recruit. And so, you know, what we've seen is that there's been a gutting of the, you know, standards for hiring as well as a gutting of training. And unfortunately, it's not all, it's not just putting the public at risk, but it's also putting ice officers at risk. You know, they're being, they're being set up to fail. And of course, they are, you know, they're making decisions that, you know, we look back and we say, look, it's costing lives. Can I ask you when you worked at ICE? What was your training like? Sure. So just to be clear, I was not a law enforcement officer, nor was I, you know, necessarily operational. I was actually the employment lawyer for ICE or that I ran their labor and employment law division.

And so, you know, where I, you know, sort of intersected with this was, you know, I advised my clients on the personnel issues. You know, that may include misconduct. It may include selection processes. And so you get to learn the business. But I think, you know, getting back to questions of accountability, you know, even with body-worn cameras, the question is going to be, okay, how are you going to use that footage? Is there going to be a full and fair investigation? You know, either way we shouldn't be making assumptions. You know, we should get to the facts.

But the question is, and it seems very apparent over the last two years, That's not the point here. The point is deterrence and intimidation and fear. I'm glad you brought up investigation because officials in both states are calling for independent investigations into what happened in these individual cases. How likely do you think that is? I mean, I think it all gets to the definition of the word independence. And this strikes, you know, a very direct chord for me because I, you know, helped I oversaw the Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties at the very end before our office was eliminated. And we would have been investigating, you know, these, these incidences. And, you know, and now, you know, there's a, there's a shell, but we basically don't exist. And then, you know, so you're left with offices of professional responsibility or as other people might, you know, refer to them offices of internal affairs at ICE or, you know, and CBP to the extent that there's a CBP officer agent involved.

doing these investigations. And look, there are a lot of good people there. But I really wonder, you know, whether they have the freedom to do their job. And so it really gets into this question of, you know, how independent is independent. Even if you were to go to DOJ, I don't have confidence anymore. And they seem very reticent up until, I think recently I saw a report where, you know, federal law enforcement was actually starting to share some information, you know, with with state and locals. But, you know, again, they're trying to keep the information close so they can maintain a narrative. So how do you understand the response to these killings in terms of they now say that at least one agent will be wearing a body camera, that the traffic

stops should be halted for the most part? What is that telling you about agency accountability and what we might see going forward? Well, I mean, again, I think this gets back to, you know, consistency and application of that policy. I mean, I can tell you when I was at the the Office of Civil Rights and Civil Liberties, we did investigations of vehicular pursuits all the time, and these traffic stops, because they can be very dangerous, again, for all people involved. And as I think, you know, people have reported,

and there was discussion earlier in the program, look, there are absolutely times where unfortunately deadly force has to be used, but the force has to be objectively reasonable. And, you know, based on what we're seeing, you know, absent more facts, I just don't see how you get there. And so, you know, even with the body cam footage, the, you know, the question becomes, are you going to use those to use that footage to conduct a real investigation?

And based on those findings, have some measure of accountability, discipline. I mean, there's all, there are people involved that have to make those decisions. It's not just a matter of saying, well, John Doe has a body, had a body camera on. And I think the other thing, too, that even with the criticisms of, oh, we don't need to do this or what have you, it's actually a tool to protect officers as well. Because if you're doing it, things the right way, that footage should back you up. Peter, as Katie was saying, the ICE enforcement over the last number of years, it's been pretty consistent. You know, there have been ramping up at certain points in times and it becomes news when there are these tragic deaths. But we know that there has been a lot of fear in immigrant communities in black and brown communities.

Talk to me about where that is now, some, you know, a couple of years into this real big push by ice. Well, I mean, I think it probably hasn't been higher. I mean, to me, it seems as though that, you know, that's the point. The point is to engender fear in black and brown communities. It's to engender, you know, the belief that you shouldn't come here. And so we're going to make it as difficult and, you know, and terror-filled as we can. So whether that is on the streets or it's in detention facilities or, you know, through these processes of, you know, just deporting people to, you know, third countries where there are no ties and where there continues to be great danger. It is a presumption that anyone, especially anyone that's black and brown that's attempting to enter this country is either, you know, perpetuating some kind of fraud because they're not, they couldn't possibly be actually seeking asylum.

Or, you know, they're, they're stealing our jobs. There's some, there's a threat. I mean, that, that is the whole ethos around this immigration enforcement regime, unfortunately. I only have about a minute left with you, but I want to ask you. this to end our conversation. Mexico says it will file legal complaints against the U.S. because of the number of deaths of Mexicans in ICE custody, including the deadly shooting in Houston last week. What impact might an action like this, that sort of international pressure, have on both the agency and the White House? Unfortunately, I don't think much. I mean, because, again, it seems as though

this administration is, you know, not particularly concerned about its reputation in the world. And it seems as though this is, again, the signature issue. It's the whole reason, I think, why, you know, many folks are there. And I think what is unfortunate in the long term is I think it makes this nation less secure. And, you know, it is devastated public trust. And so, you know, while, again, the Homeland Security mission is an important one, it's going to take years to, you know, to rebuild it and to rebuild the public's confidence if it can be rebuilt.

Peter, it's been good to get your perspective this morning. Thank you very much. Thank you, Pia. Peter Mina is a civil rights attorney who spent nearly a decade working at ICE. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon.

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