The Current - Freeland resigns with ‘maximum chaos,’ ‘maximum damage’

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

Finance minister Chrystia Freeland’s shock resignation has heaped pressure on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to step down. The CBC’s Rosemary Barton and the Globe and Mail's Stephanie Levitz discuss Freeland’s blistering resignation letter, and why it seemed designed to inflict “maximum damage” on the prime minister. 

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. It's obviously been an eventful day. Well, that's one way to put it. The fall economic statement is usually the biggest political news on the day that it is released. Yesterday, not so much. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau ended the day with applause at a party fundraiser, but in the hours leading up to that, the criticism had been piling up, starting with the resignation of his finance minister, Christy Freeland. way more than the fall economic statement are Rosemary Barton, the CBC's chief political correspondent, fresh off of, what, 12 hours on live television, and Stephanie Levitt, senior reporter at the Globe and Mail's Parliamentary Bureau. Good morning to you both.

Morning, Matt. Good morning. Rosie, what is the word that you would use to describe yesterday? Stunning, devastating, shocking. I mean, all those words. I don't use those words actually very often as a journalist. I try not to exaggerate. But in this case, I think that they all apply. And they all apply because of the timing of what happened.

Obviously, the resignation being timed to happen just hours before the finance minister was set to deliver the update. Stunning because the prime minister's office and the prime minister had no idea this was coming. And also shocking because Chrystia Freeland had been such a loyal foot soldier for Justin Trudeau from the very beginning. One of the first star, the first star candidate he recruited back in 2013, winning in a by-election then. All of those factors make this such an incredible, incredible political moment, and also a really difficult, really difficult moment for Justin Trudeau. I would say the most difficult moment he's had so far. Stephanie, what about for you? I mean, maximum chaos, Matt.

It has been a long time in the political world, I would say, that you have seen the rug so thoroughly pulled out from underneath people on Parliament Hill and broader than it was yesterday. You know, again, as you alluded to off the top there, the fall economic statement. I mean, it was never going to be a good news day yesterday for the Justin Trudeau Liberal government. This fall economic statement was going to come in with a higher than projected deficit. There was going to be questions about that. There was no doubt, but it went from like bad to worse in the space of a nanosecond. And the, also the shift in opinion on Krista Freeland yesterday also was really striking, you know, like up until probably about 901 a.m yesterday there were a ton of people who thought she was very weak and that you know she was letting Trudeau

boss her around and how could she possibly take this and you know by like 907 when her letter was circulating around she was suddenly everybody's hero without a cape what do we know stuff about what led to her decision there There's talk that on Friday, she had a call with the prime minister. And then what do we know about that? So what we know is that the two offices, as is normal, had some tension between them, the offices being the prime minister's office and the finance office, right? And that the tension was, of course, that, you know, Ms. Freeland was trying to sort of prudently steward through the nation's finances, making choices that she felt would align with the fiscal guardrails, she called them, that she would put around to keep things on track. Mr. Trudeau had a more political view of things and wanting to spend in such a way that aligned with the liberals' ideologies, but also that he felt was politically beneficial.

in such a way that aligned with the liberals' ideologies, but also that he felt was politically beneficial. These two things really came to a head after Donald Trump and his 25% tariff threat. The government was promising billions in a GST holiday, new checks for Canadians. Christopher Feeland is saying, whoa, whoa, whoa. If he goes in with this threat, our economy is going to be devastated. We need to hold on to our cash. This all came to a head with a call between them over Zoom. Zoom on Friday, where Mr. Trudeau, as we've reported and elsewhere, said to Ms. Freeland, listen, I'd still like you to do the finance statement on Monday, but after that, I'm moving you along from the job. In The Globe, you suggested that she had been offered this position that would

allow her to deal with the crisis coming from south of the border and deal with the United States. But this was a position, as you say, with no money, no authority, no staff, and she said no thanks. Pretty much. I mean, you know, think about that. Think she's gone, she was the prime minister's number two finance minister, the most powerful cabinet position in the country, absent the prime ministers. And suddenly she's being told effectively she's becoming minister without portfolio. And I should add this also, when she wasn't even invited to Mar-a-Lago for dinner with Donald Trump, you know, two and a half weeks ago with the prime minister. Rosie, it's not just that she left. It's not just that she left hours before she was set to deliver the fall economic statement.

It's that she left with this letter that was, you know, people poured over line by line, a letter that says Canadians know when we are working for them and they equally know when we are focused on ourselves. How much damage does something like that, wrapped all together, do to the Prime Minister but also to the party? Yeah, I mean, I think it was written and delivered in a way, as Steph points out, at 9.07 to exact maximum damage on the Prime Minister. It wasn't just you were going to – I perceive what you offered me as a demotion and I don't want to do it. It was, we've had policy problems. Oh, and by the way, I'm not interested in your costly political gimmicks, is what she called those affordability measures. And if someone was serious about taking on Donald Trump, they would keep their powder dry. That is a full thrthrottled attack on

Justin Trudeau's credibility. It's a vote of non-confidence. It absolutely is. In him and the direction that he's taking the country, it is also, and I'm sure we'll get there, it is also an attempt by Chrystia Freeland to very decisively separate herself from the prime minister to show what she would do differently in case we do find ourselves in the midst of a leadership race. Because that is sort of job number one for someone, right, who was in his government, was in his cabinet, is to find a way to differentiate herself.

And that was done in a very purposeful way. I should say, just back to the call on Friday that Steph described there so well, I will say that from what I understand, the offer that was made to Christopher Freeland was not seen as a demotion by the Prime Minister's office. It was seen as something that she could figure out herself, take on as much or as little as she wanted. And there was no sense in that phone call that they had upset her or that she was going to leave. That to me is a striking bit of information because it shows that the breakdown that Steph described there, the breakdown in their relationship, was so intense that he couldn't even read the possibility that this would be unacceptable to her. So what happens now?

To get to a leadership race that may or may not happen, the leader has to leave. We're going to speak with a couple of the MPs who have been calling for him to leave. They'll join us later on in the program. The editorial in the Toronto Star this morning says the same thing, that he has to leave for the benefit of the country, but also to salvage his reputation and perhaps the legacy of some of the things that he put into place. You said yesterday, hours into the broadcast, Rosie, that your views on what might happen had changed over the course of the day. Yeah. Well, because I think things changed for the Prime Minister and in the office. I was told that he was shaken, like really shaken by this when he headed into that cabinet meeting that was already planned and then sort of went into lockdown mode with his senior staff and his

trusted advisors. What Justin Trudeau has done, though, time and again, particularly over the past six months, is acknowledge the problem, not acknowledge that the problem is in any way him, and then just sort of coast along until he's past the moment. And I felt that that happened a little bit yesterday when he went into that caucus meeting where we got those incredible TV shots. Through the blinds that were open? Through the blinds that no one realized were open until, you know, 10 minutes into the meeting. And there was some support in caucus for him. It wasn't just a whole room of people saying, you've got to go. And I think he left that meeting feeling a little bit differently about things.

And then he went on to that fundraiser where Matt, he not only gave a speech, he stood there for a long time taking photos with some of the biggest fundraisers. So I think he's going to take a minute. I think he's going to go away over the holidays and think about it. I mean, the House is rising today, and that is hugely helpful for him and for the government's timing. So I'm not sure what he's going to do, because this is not a guy who likes to give up. But I don't honestly know how he continues. It is, to me, baffling. It would be incredibly challenging for him to continue now. Steph, do you think he can survive as leader of the party? And why would he think that he

could survive as leader? He would think he could survive as leader for the same reason he could call Christopher Freeland on Zoom and fire her, but then tell her that she still needs to deliver the fall economic statement on Monday. His conception of things does not necessarily align with how people perceive his own actions. What's interesting, I suppose, about that caucus meeting that happened yesterday, and we'll see where things go, this is a very fast-moving story in its own way, right, is even with the tension with Christopher Phelan, there did not appear to be a critical mass of members of parliament standing up and saying, boss, you have to go.

And you have to wonder why that is, Matt. I mean, we could go out in the weeds. They don't have a procedural mechanism to vote him out, yada, yada, yada. But if the pressure internally was that intense, he would go. Back in October when this happened, you know, the MPs were believing themselves to, if they could get Trudeau to go, if they could get a, the housing minister, his decision not to run again, which was supposed to be another big political story yesterday, you know, sort of signaled a bit of canary in the coal mine, like someone reading the tea leaves, who is a popular minister in the Trudeau cabinet, who is a good communicator, well-liked by a lot of people, and saying that he wasn't going to run again, you know, that's an acknowledgement he's going to lose his seat. And so I thought we were seeing a turning point yesterday where maybe liberals were seeing the writing on the wall, realizing maybe they're just not going to win no matter what. And the caucus meeting yesterday had a frisson of that as well.

Are they just giving up in there and are going to all go down with the ship? In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts.

you get your podcasts. The Conservatives, as you could imagine, have seized on this chaos and are calling, they've been calling for an election for some time, but say now, now is the time. Have a listen to Pierre Polyeth. Now is the time for a carbon tax election to turn the decision away from me or Mr. Trudeau or Mr. Singh or Mr. Carney and put it in the hands of the people. I know that they will make the right decision. Rosie, you mentioned Mark Carney there. I wonder what Mark Carney thinks of all of this. What did you make of the tone of Pierre Pallet of yesterday? You know, he smartly took a moment to react because he was supposed to come

out earlier in the day. He smartly took a moment to sort of see where things landed. This to him is exactly sort of the case that he's been building against the prime minister. And in fact, he used Chrystia Freeland's words against the prime minister to make that case yesterday directly to Canadians. The worst thing that could happen, I think, for Pierre Poiliev is that there is a leadership race. That is part of what he did yesterday. He wants the election to happen. The worst thing because it would change the target in some ways? It would change, yeah, it would change the leader.

It would delay the outcome. He would miss this moment of chaos as an opportunity. This could take months and months and months. You know, if he ends up with a different opponent, who knows what will happen. So, yeah, that's why they're calling and calling and calling for an election. You know, yesterday was also remarkable because Jagmeet Singh, for the first time, said the prime minister had to resign, but did not go on to say exactly what that would mean, although his house leader later told David Cochran that they would vote non-confidence later in the spring. So things are lining up in that way. And we'll see whether Justin Trudeau wants to fight that

election and whether he can hang on or whether it's someone else. All eyes on Jagmeet Singh as the party that's been propping up the Liberals. Have a listen to what Mr. Singh had to say. All options are on the table. People are hurting. People are struggling. And so all options are on the table. Just to clarify, you're calling for him to resign,

but you are not willing to vote no confidence in his government. How do those two things connect? All options are on the table. That's not an answer. All options. That's not an answer. All options. It's not an answer, says the reporter to Jagmeet Singh. Steph, what did you make of that response from the leader of the NB? Yeah, that response.

I heard somebody describe it later in the day as an element of political malpractice, which is to say that it was a moment in time. You know, political leaders, Matt, when they go into these moments before microphones, before cameras, generally speaking, when it's organized like that was, they prep for things, right? They've got someone saying, all right, the reporter's going to ask you this. What's your answer? And that answer that he couldn't clearly articulate how he could have zero confidence in Justin Trudeau, but not be prepared to bring down the government made no sense. And it's something, you know, I understand a house leader, you know, trying to do a bit of damage control saying, no, no, like, you know, we might bring them down later. It just, you look at that and you think, okay, Mr. Singh and the New Democrats, what? Is there the sense, Steph, that if Justin Trudeau were to leave, that would, you know, blow some air into the embers of the Liberal Party, that it would revive the fortunes of the party? There is a sense of that, for sure, because there is a sense, I think, among even, you know, I think some conservatives will acknowledge this, that the desire for change exists throughout the country. People are very frustrated with the government. They're frustrated at the status quo, but they also personally dislike Justin Trudeau at this point in the game. And putting a new leader in charge of the Liberal

Party, if it was someone that these people liked, it could be the thing that I don't think moves votes away from Pierre Polyev and towards the liberals. What it will do is motivate liberals to actually vote in the first place. And that's a problem I think the liberals are going to have going into the election, whereby, you know, a significant portion of their base doesn't love Mr. Polyev and isn't interested in voting for him, but they don't want to vote for Justin Trudeau anymore. Therefore, they just sit on their hands and stay home. Rosie, the turmoil, chaos, whatever you want to call it, happens against the backdrop of these tariff threats from Donald Trump. Premiers are meeting just outside of Toronto.

There's this photo of Doug Ford, Premier of Ontario, surrounded by microphones in the media. He's kind of the center of attention as he's saying that Canada needs to project strength and unity. What happens to Team Canada in the face of yesterday? Yeah, I mean, I think that is the other biggest factor here for Justin Trudeau. I'm not sure if we weren't facing these tariffs that he couldn't just sort of skate along and everything would be fine. I think it is the moment in time that is also demanding something to happen. Donald Trump saw what happened yesterday. He doesn't like Chrystia Freeland. He didn't like her all the way back in 2019 while they were negotiating NAFTA. And he called her behavior

toxic in a social media post last night. That is not helpful to a country that is trying to kind of stay on his good side, frankly, and make sure these tariffs don't go into place. What you saw yesterday was a vacuum of leadership because of the chaos in Ottawa, and the premier is trying to fill it, which is fine for a moment. And Daniel Smith told you that, right? Yes, that's right. And that's fine for that day. But that's not going to work long term. We need to have a federal government that has a clear mandate

on how they're going to move forward with Donald Trump. And that is sort of what Christa Freeland's point was in her letter. We are staring down, like, you know, economic disaster, potentially. And if the liberal government can't get its stuff together, We are staring down, like, you know, economic disaster potentially. And if the Liberal government can't get its stuff together, that's going to be awfully hard to stave off. That is an incredibly difficult moment if we don't have a prime minister who has the authority needed in order to face these things. We have 90 seconds left. Steph, what's one thing you are watching that will give us a sense as to where this goes from here? Does Mr. Trudeau intend to continue

with the current parliamentary session or does he prorogue and try and come up with some kind of reset to do what Rosie said, give the liberals some time to try and get their stuff together to bolster the confidence of Canadians and take on Donald Trump? Rosie, one thing that you're looking for? Yeah, does he go away for a holiday to bolster the confidence of Canadians and take on Donald Trump.

Rosie, one thing that you're looking for? Yeah, does he go away for a holiday and come back with a different point of view after some reflection? How does he think he can hang on? You have a year-end interview with the Prime Minister scheduled for tomorrow? Well, we'll see. Events may unfold. I'm changing the queue line, as you can imagine. We will be watching and listening for that. In the meantime, it was quite a day yesterday. I appreciate you both walking us through what we know and where we may go from here. Thank you

very much. Thank you, Matt. Stephanie Levitz is a senior reporter with the Global Mail's Parliamentary Bureau. Rosemary Barton is the CBC's chief political correspondent. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.