The Current - Grey divorce: Why more Canadians are separating later in life

Episode Date: April 28, 2025

Marnie Wraith had a comfortable life with her husband, but as she got older she started to wonder if good enough was really good enough. Deciding she had more life to live, Wraith became one of an increasing number of Canadians getting a so-called grey divorce — and navigating all the social, personal and financial upheaval that came with it.

1942, Europe. Soldiers find a boy surviving alone in the woods. They make him a member of Hitler's army. But what no one would know for decades, he was Jewish. Could a story so unbelievable be true? I'm Dan Goldberg. I'm from CBC's personally, Toy Soldier. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is the current podcast. More Canadians are getting divorced later in life than ever before. While the stats show that the overall divorce rate

is going down in this country, it's actually going up for people over the age of 50. Today in our series, As We Age, we are looking at this rise in what is known as gray divorce and the issues that come up when people end a relationship later in life. Marnie Wraith has divorced twice.

Her second marriage ended a year and a half ago. She's retired. She lives in Meaford, Ontario. That's where we've reached her. Marnie, good morning. Good morning, Matt. We're talking to you because you wrote to us. You sent us a note saying, I would love to hear about gray divorce and how to navigate chapters two and three. And there were three exclamation marks at the end of your note. Why did you want to write us about this? Why were you so interested in what we call great divorce?

I was interested in other people's stories to get a sense of what people are going through and it's a little lonely at times to be divorced and single. So I just wanted to know if my route is kind of similar to other people's path in divorce and just to get some idea of what I will be facing. So let's talk a little bit about, if you don't mind what you have gone through, tell me a bit about your second marriage. We were common law partners.

We met two, three years after my first divorce and I was 50 at the time, just turning 50. We had eight good years. We moved to Meford. We bought an eight-acre property. We had a lot of adventures. He was semi-retired and traveled significantly. It was a good life. At the end of it, I kind of thought to myself,

this is good, but is good enough, good enough for me? And it was comfortable, but is comfortable what you want in your years to come? There was a sense that there was more life to live. How difficult was it to think about ending a relationship at that point in your life? There, it is scary because there is a feeling of more loneliness to come. You have to overcome the inertia and the status quo of a known life.

It feels like taking, ripping off the caution tape of a known life to go to an unknown life that you know really nothing in terms of how you're going to navigate that. At the time, I felt that with a lot of years behind me, with a lot of relationship, a lot of career, life was hectic. And being a woman, there's a tendency to meet everyone's needs and everyone's needs before your own. And it was kind of my time that I felt that what are my needs and what do I want out of life. Was that different than going through divorce earlier in life?

Yes. How so? I guess having kids in the house, there's a sense of belonging and a connection that's there. And now the kids are launched and my elderly parents are three hours away. And there's a sense that I'm navigating this alone. But you said something really interesting, which was good enough was where you were at,

but you wondered whether good enough was good enough and whether being comfortable was actually all that you deserved. Tell me more about that and how you assessed whether good enough was in fact good enough at that point in your life. That's a tough question. I think I wanted my own life. I was coasting and I felt that I wasn't growing personally. And being at the almost age of 60, there was still more meaningful connections and adventures in life that I wasn't going to get

in my present situation. And I felt that I needed to grow. I needed more challenge. I needed a recalibration of my life based just on my needs alone. Mm-hmm. That's really honest, I mean, in saying that. I mean, part of it is you wonder whether at that point in your life, having, you know,

accumulated a lot of experiences, whether you feel almost less obligated to stick around in something that is just good enough. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, there's less tethers there. Yeah, there is a feeling of liberation that I can do this just based on my own needs. You do feel a loss and you feel a lot of guilt and shame that you're letting your partner down and letting some of your friends and your kids down based on your decision. But it's your life and you have to be happy with your life. What did the kids say?

The kids were, they were hurt. It's a family unit and there's a lot of comfort for them. They've lost the first family and now they're getting some security again with a family unit. And so they, yeah, I think that there was a lot of hurt for them. What do you think you would have lost personally by staying in that second relationship? I mean, you could stay, and people will often do this.

It doesn't matter where they are in life. They'll stay because they worry about what they would be giving up. But what do you think you would have lost by staying in that relationship? I think that I would have lost an understanding of who I am. The one good things of facing a loss or an adversity in life is that it gives you time to really think about

who you are, what you want. And so, there's been a lot of moments of introspection and personal growth. And I don't think I would have had that. I would have been coasting in life thinking, this is good enough and just skimming the surface of kind of a superficial life in some regards. So I feel that I have more meaning in my life now. I feel that there's more space and time to understand the connections and the adventures and the life experiences that I wanna have in the next 10, 20 years.

I mean, do you mind, the whole thing is personal, everything that I'm asking you, but do you mind? It's like therapy, sorry. Do you mind me asking? That's okay. And I'm a private person. Oh, there you go. Welcome. But can I ask you about, I mean, there are practical things that you have to go through, right? And especially as you get older and maybe you're thinking about retirement, maybe retirement is nearby. I mean, there's money issues, there's cost of housing and what have you.

How did you navigate all of that? Yeah, I was very, very fortunate that I had the financial resources to do this. So you have to buy your former partner out, for example? That's correct, yeah. So I bought my partner out and so I could have the property on my own. And yeah, there are a lot of negatives. There is loneliness, you know, you're eating

dinner by yourself. There's a hit on your social life. The foundation of society and family are couples based and now you're navigating your social life alone. You may be forced to sit at a restaurant on your own or even do some solo travel on your own because you can't find a friend to go with you. How has that worked out for you? Again, as you say, in a society where, I mean, so much of it is based around people being with somebody else.

I feel that I had to face, I don't know if they're real or perceived judgments of others, but I wanted to face, I don't know if they're real or perceived judgments of others, but I wanted to go to Vermont to do a biking trip and I was going to face my fear of going out in the wilderness alone. And I wanted to do that and to see if I could do that. And I kind of felt when I was telling people, this is what I'm doing, they kind of looked at me like, oh, like kind of sad that here she goes.

She's, you know, she's alone. Again, I don't know if those are perceived judgments, but whenever I feel that way, that I get an inner voice of what will people think, I know that I'm limiting myself and that I have to push through that. So whether that's going alone to Vermont, I have to push through because that's what I want. and don't worry about what people think. And I did it. You know, I was gravel biking in the middle of nowhere and I was really proud of myself that I overcame my fear of that.

That's awesome. Do you think about one of the things, and this is still with the idea that people are paired up, do you worry or do you think about getting older on your own? Yes. Without a partner there to kind of age alongside you? Yeah, for sure. There is some fear of if I have an accident or I'm injured,

no one has my back. Yeah, there is a sense of life is now on my own and I have to seek connections and hopefully they'll fit my needs. But you know, it's harder when you're thinking of illness or any injury of who will have my back. When you wrote to us, you were talking about chapters two and three. What do you think chapters two and three look like for you?

I read once somewhere that there's phases of retirement. There's the go-go years where you have the financial resources, you have the health, you go out forward, you travel, you do all these adventures. And then there's the slow go years that you're kind of constrained and you're slowing down. And then there's the no-go years that you're just seeking comfort and that's probably in your own home.

Chapters two and three for me, the go-go years are really, really important to me. I love adventure travel and I'm very athletic. And also, I get a sense that my runway is getting shorter. I have to get going. So if the list is, okay, I want to travel to Newfoundland, I have to do it. Time is running out. So my go-go years are really important to me. And I'm interested in seeking new connections. And that's the kind of the beauty in all of this is that there is a constriction of your social life when you divorce, but there's also an expansion. And I'm really looking forward to meeting people in different

adventures. And, and I'm hoping that will expand my world. Would you want another partner? I want to really enjoy my life. And if it happens, that would be great, but I'm not seeking it. So I'm really looking forward to my life alone and connecting with others in different activities and adventures, but no, I'm not seeking a third partner quite yet. What would you do before I let you go? What would you say to somebody who perhaps is in the same situation and they're wondering, they're a little bit older and they're wondering whether good enough is good enough.

But they're also, they heard everything that you just said about some of the fears that you had, the stigma that might be around. What would you say to them? Well, be mindful. The runway is getting shorter. If you feel that you're missing out on life and that there's something greater that you want to attain in your life. Act like a teenager and you have more time on your hands and you have less responsibilities. So go out, act like a teenager and be mindful of any limiting beliefs of the stigma of divorce.

Try to take that warning tape off and proceed. Proceed with your dreams. This is the time of life where you can. Take the warning tape off, I like that. I'm really glad that you wrote to us. And again, I asked you a bunch of weird personal questions, but you answered them all. And I really appreciate you being willing

to talk about this. There are a lot of people perhaps who will hear themselves in what you're saying. Marnie, thank you answered them all. And I really appreciate you being willing to talk about this. There are a lot of people perhaps who will hear themselves in what you're saying. Marnie, thank you very much. Thank you, Matt. Marnie Rafe is in Meaford, Ontario. Now our change will honor the Supreme Court of Canada and its role in protecting the rights

and freedoms of all Canadians. Its guiding motto of justice and truth has defined its decisions since 1875. The new one dollar commemorative coin features a semicircle of laurels, symbolizing the nine judges and the court's enduring commitment to justice. Find the limited edition 150th anniversary

of the Supreme Court of Canada coin today. 50th anniversary of the Supreme Court of Canada coined today. A VP at HBO said no one would ever watch Yellowstone. Stephen King was rejected by 30 publishers. Charles Schultz was told he'd never make a living scribbling, and Missy Elliott was dropped by her label. The stories of famous names, their lesser-known rejections, and the insights those rejections provide. We regret to inform you the Rejection Podcast. Listen to Season 6 wherever you get your podcasts. Jared Grossman is a lawyer with Grossman Family Law in Toronto. He's been listening in. Jared, good morning to you.

Good morning, Matt. How are you? I'm well. As you listen to Marnie, does that sound familiar in terms of things that you have heard in your practice? I found listening to her actually quite fascinating, and I would say I was quite frankly very impressed with almost the maturity she had with her separation and really understanding what she wants in life and kind of be willing to take that risk to remove any blockade that would prevent her from doing what she wants. And to be quite frankly, that's awesome and good for her.

I said in the introduction to this conversation that more Canadians are getting divorced later in life than ever before. What do we know about this? This is your work. I mean, how much more common is that idea of gray divorce now than it used to be? I certainly think with people living a lot longer,

I think you have a lot more people in their 50s, 60s, 70s who are more than willing and capable of traveling and going on adventures. So, you know, once the kids live the house, it's not surprising to me as we live longer lives that you're gonna see a lot more divorces later in life as, you know, when the kids leave the house, you have the ability to be a little bit more selfish

and really have that look inside of you and see what you really wanna do with life. What, as you understand it, is different in terms of divorce later on in life compared to a divorce earlier on? Oh, so that's a big question. But I think from a legal perspective, I think one of the biggest hurdles we deal with as lawyers

and people kind of do these gray divorces is really spousal support Quite frankly, you're gonna have people separating who've been together 30 40 years and they've been relying on one's income and then when they separate that income may not be there specifically We're dealing with retirement age and if you retire that creates such a big issue, right? So how are you gonna deal with spousal support? So I would say that's probably the biggest hot topic dealing with a great divorce. There's also issues, and Marnie talked a bit about this

in terms of assets, right? That if you have been together with somebody, maybe you've been living in a house for 20, 30 years, you bought the house at what now seems like a very cheap price. For you to sell and get into another home could be really complicated. It could be really complicated

and without getting into too much of the legal boring stuff, one of the big issues dealing with a great divorce is there is, as lawyers, we have an obligation to identify specifically if they were married, what were their assets worth at the date of marriage and Can you imagine even for yourself or myself if I asked you right now the day you got married? How much did you have in your bank account? Well try asking that to someone who's in 60 to go to their bank and ask them to look at their bank account from

1970 or 1980 they'll never be able to find it So that that has a big effect on the property division and how much one partner would owe to the other partner. But yeah, it's very daunting and it's extremely scary. I was listening to Marnie and she used those words, scary, anxiety, fear, and I think that's what really would stamp a great divorce for me. How do you work, I mean, not even specifics, you don't have to talk about the specific clients,

but how do you work through those issues with the people that you represent? Well, I think the first thing I would advise any client quite frankly going through divorce But specifically people going through gray divorce is friends Therapy and talking and speaking understanding that you're not alone I think having a therapist be able to talk to you is a huge resource that not enough people utilize Because it is scary and it is daunting and I think you need a good support system around you. Having children that understand

and you can openly communicate with is another big tool that I would recommend to anyone, but the communication and being able to talk through your fears and your anxiety is huge. Do you think the stigma, as Marty described it, is as prominent as people might think? I mean, divorce has changed over time, but maybe for those later on in life,

the expectation from some is, you've toughed it out this far, why now? Yeah, I don't know if the stigma is necessarily different from an outsider, but I think someone going through a great divorce may feel that stigma more. For example, if you're younger and you're 30 years old and you have kids in grade one, grade two, grade three, and you're going through divorce, you're not focused on that stigma more. For example, if you're younger and you're 30 years old and you have

kids in grade one, grade two, grade three, and you're going through divorce, you're not focused on that stigma. You're focused on how am I going to pay for the kids' clothing next week and how are we going to pay for summer camp and all that stuff. Versus, if your kids are no longer dependents and you're older, you're really worried about how am I going to go on a date night with my friends. You've been going out for dinner, as Marnie suggested, for 30 years with couple after couple after couple. And so I think the stigma may be the same,

but the focus is much more highlighted in a great divorce. Because you are that single person in a world of older couples. Yeah, and you're much more concerned about your own personal wellbeing. As you talked about with Marnie, the runway's getting shorter, versus when you're doing it when you're 20, concerned about your own personal wellbeing. As you talked about with Marnie, the runway's getting shorter, versus when you're doing it when you're 20, 30 or 40,

your focus is survival the next day and making sure your kids are cared for. We're using this phrase gray divorce, and I mean, people get gray hair at all different ages. What's the age range for the clients that you work with? What are we talking about here? So it's interesting. I spoke to a bunch of colleagues

and kind of preparing myself for this discussion. And the general people would say to me was that a gray divorce would be defined as people getting divorced over the age of 50. But for me, I don't know if that's fair because specifically, today people are having children when they're a bit older. So you could easily be separating at 50

and still have children exiting you know, exiting high school and going to university. For me, a great divorce is really, when I think about it, is entering retirement, kids are no longer an issue in terms of the financial resources for the children. That to me is what really defines a great divorce. So I think you're looking at the issues more from healthcare concerns,

dealing with pensions and dealing with spousal support. Those are the kind of the things that make it different to me. So that might be early 60s. How far up would that go? I mean, how old would some of the people be that you would be talking to about divorce? You know, I've recently, in my office,

had a few different cases where I've actually had somebody who's entering the early 80s. And that one is particularly sad, of course, and as Marnie was talking about it, you can only imagine someone in the 80s, she's been with this gentleman since I think she was 17 or 18 years old, and this is all she's known.

And in that particular case, the issues that we're dealing with are a lot more mental health related to. You have one partner who wants to end the relationship, one party desperately wants to stay in the relationship, and frankly, the people are fragile when they get into that age, and it's heartbreaking. Can you talk a bit more about that,

why a couple would want to divorce when they're in their 80s? In a few examples, I could think about mental health as a big component, and you have one partner who says, I'm done, is making horrible allegations about the other partner. And the other one is denying those allegations, saying that never happened, and is madly in love with their spouse.

And they don't want the relationship to end. In Ontario, it only takes one person to end a divorce. It takes two people to get married, only one person can call a divorce. And so that particular circumstance, the emotional tolls taken on my clients and the hand holding that we have to do as lawyers is significantly deeper and different versus a young divorce.

Tell me about the hand holding. What do you do? I mean, part of it is you're dealing with a practical piece, but you're acting as a therapist in some ways too. And that is true. And of course, as a lawyer, we have to be very careful about that because my job is not to be a therapist. But you're there in this really vulnerable moment with people and that's exactly it. So, you know going

Leading up to for example one example I could think of where we're actually going through court in that particular case My my client is having The fear and the anxiety leading up to court dates is considerably higher than other clients I've had to dealt with so we take a lot of pride in making sure we meet with the client the day before. We almost practice with them what the judge is gonna say so try to reduce some of that fear and anxiety. But as Marnie said, the fear and the concerns

about being alone and the social stigma are, as you get older and older, I think those get more and more heightened. There are people, and Marnie hinted at this, who would think, you know what, good enough is not good enough and I deserve something different, I deserve more and I'm going to move on and end this relationship. But that can come with, we talked about financial consequences, emotional consequences. You as the person who is in the middle of this have to tell your clients what the

lay of the land really looks like. How do you go about telling them something maybe they don't want to hear? I've always had the policy in my office, be as blunt as possible, do it with kindness, but I don't think it helps a client to try to mislead them or tell them something that's really not a, you know, an accurate narrative. And so what are some of the blunt things that

you have to say to people who are going through this? Well, for example, spousal support is a big one. If you've been with someone, let's just use an example, someone's earning $100,000 a year and you've had a long-term marriage, there's an expectation of spousal support based on that $100,000, particularly if the other spouse, for example, is a homemaker and is staying at home and raising the children. But what happens if that couple divorces, let's say a year after the person earning $100,000 retires?

So the spousal support issues, that person's income is now gonna be zero dollars, and that is a huge concern and something that we really have to look into as family lawyers. And looking into, for example, if somebody has a pension, whether some of that would go as part of spousal support? And that's exactly it, but the problem with pensions is that if the person's pension is going to be divided, so

you're talking about property division, right? But if the pension's already divided, you can't then go after the pension from an income source perspective as well, because that would be considered double dipping, right? If you've already divided the pension, you can't then say, oh, he's also getting his half now, and I want to use that part as his income. So it's a very complex area of law, but we call it double-dipping, which is typically frowned upon.

There are, of course, exceptions to that, but that is where it becomes really tricky and really scary and dangerous for people doing these great divorces, where a pension has been divided and it's already in pay. How does one determine the other party's income? What would you, just finally, what would you say, this is the question that I asked Marnie

at the end of our conversation, what would you say to people who find themselves in this situation, they're wondering whether a relationship has run its course, and they are thinking that maybe it's time to move on, but the practicalities, as we've said, can be kind of scary and maybe unknown. What would you say to them?

Oh, that's a very difficult question to answer, but you know, Marnie seemed to have her desires and goals set. I wrote down the actual phrase, she said act like a teenager. I think if you get to that point and you've made that determination in your head, there's really no turning back.

I personally tell everyone life is short, be happy, enjoy yourself. It's never worth staying in a relationship where you're not happy, in my honest opinion. And I think as M life is short, be happy, enjoy yourself. It's never worth staying in a relationship where you're not happy, in my honest opinion. And I think as Marnie described, it can be eye-opening to her afterwards. She mentioned how she went biking and how she was proud of herself.

Those are the things that make me smile as a family lawyer. Letting people see the good on the other side and staying in a relationship where you're not happy is never worth it. Life is short, as you say. Life is short. Go enjoy yourself.

I really appreciate talking to you. Thank you very much. Thanks, Matt. Appreciate it. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Jerry Grossman is a lawyer with Grossman Family Law in Toronto.