The Current - Has Trump chosen Russia over Europe?

Episode Date: March 3, 2025

U.S. President Donald Trump and his vice-president J.D. Vance publicly berated Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at the Oval Office on Friday in an exchange that shocked the world. We look at how global alliances are shifting under Trump, and what it all means for Ukraine’s fight against Russia’s invasion.

You're an entrepreneur. Growth is essential for your business. At BDC, we get that, and we're here to help you stay two steps ahead. With our flexible financing and advisory services, we help you adapt, growing your business in the face of today's challenges and tomorrow's opportunities. Stepping up for entrepreneurs. We're on it. BDC.

Financing. Advising. know-how. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, it's Matt here. Thanks for listening to The Current, wherever you're getting this podcast. Before we get to today's show, wonder if I might ask a favor of you

if you could hit the follow button on whatever app you're using There is a lot of news that's out there these days We're trying to help you make sense of it all and give you a bit of a break from some of that news, too So if you already follow the program, thank you And if you have done that maybe you could leave us a rating or review as well The whole point of this is to let more listeners find our show and perhaps find some of that information That's so important in these really tricky times. So thanks for all of that. Appreciate it and on to today's show

After the meeting heard around the world, supporters of Ukraine gathered in New York City's Times Square on Saturday, singing Ukraine's national anthem. Ukraine's president Volodymyr Zelensky's disastrous meeting at the White House on Friday ended prematurely with no deal on Ukraine's critical minerals and no US guarantee of safety for that country. In a fiery exchange, US president Donald Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance accused President Zelensky of gambling with World War III and scolded him for not being grateful enough. What you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country, that's backed you

far more than a lot of people said they should have. Have you said thank you once, this entire meeting? No, in this entire meeting have you said thank you? You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October. Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country. That exchange shocked much of the world and is raising questions about a fundamental reordering of the global order. Yesterday the UK held a summit on the war in Ukraine attended by key European leaders Vladimir Zelensky and Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. We're going to continue to be there to support Ukraine as necessary with whatever it takes for as long as it takes because Ukraine is not just

defending its own territories, defending the very principles and values that underpin all of our democracies. So as we look at what's going to be necessary in the coming years, I can assure you that Canada and Canadians will be there. Inna Sovson is a member of Ukraine's parliament. She's in Kyiv. Inna Sovson, hello. Hello there. As you were watching that exchange between President Donald Trump, the Vice President JD Vance and President Zelensky, what went through your mind? Well, I think it's fair to say that we were all in shock. We didn't expect anything like that to happen. We knew that the conversation between the two presidents

is not going to be easy based on the previous communication from the sea in particular. But we surely didn't expect that level of attack on the Ukrainian president, which is particularly striking given that I remember the talks between the American delegation and the Russian delegation in El Riyadh, and that went much more smoothly, and that was the conversation with the representatives of the country that have caused all of that, who have killed thousands of Ukrainians and actually are the main reason why this whole situation is taking place to begin with. So there was this very strong

feeling of injustice of what is happening over there. And it was emotionally difficult moment for all of us here that we are trying to move from right now. You said on social media, and I'm assuming you're speaking to Ukrainians, keep calm. How worried do you think Ukrainians were by what they saw, by the berating from the president and the vice president? Well, I'll say this. My partner is on the front lines from day one

of this invasion, and he's been there for over three years now. So it's not just me speaking as a politician, it's me speaking as a citizen of the country, it's me, someone who's loved one, is risking his own life in order for us to have a better future. So of course, the first things that were running through my head at that moment was how will that affect the security of our soldiers on the frontline, because that is indeed the most critical question over there. And of course we still hope that the US will not turn to the option of switching of all

military aid to Ukraine, but if that is the reality that we have to deal with, then of course the biggest question then would be is will our European partners and other partners say Canada, Australia, Japan, will they be willing to step in and to aid Ukraine with what we are we might lose from the United States? Do you think that's possible? I mean there was this summit yesterday in the United Kingdom, the British Prime Minister was there, Zelensky was there, leaders from across Europe and the Prime Minister from Canada were there. What do you want to see coming out of a summit like that?

Well, a list of weapons that they are willing to provide to Ukraine would be the best response to everything that was happening. And there was some commitment being made in terms of military aid to Ukraine. And I think it's also important to remember that, of course, we rely very strongly on US aid, but it's for sure that President Trump did overestimate the level of the American aid, claiming that without American aid,

Ukraine wouldn't be able to save itself to stand against that aggression, because the truth is that American aid started coming in relatively late in the conflict and the first couple of months we had to to to manage with what we had at stock and as of right now yes we do rely on American aid but but let's say 40% of what we are using in this war is being produced in Ukraine right now. So it is important, but it's not like we would have to give up without American aid. It's going to be difficult, but we can continue the fight. And can Europe do you think, can Europe actually replace the United States as a guarantor of

Ukraine security? Maybe Europe in itself, no, but there are other countries that are in coalition. Again, Canada, Japan, Australia, Norway, United Kingdom. If all those countries get together, if they develop a plan of short-term and mid-term, then we can manage to at least if not Get all of our territory back But at least to approach any sort of peace negotiations from the position of strength Rather than from position of weakness as as we are now being forced to do. What do you make of this?

Accusation and this was directed at President Zelensky that Ukraine has not been Thankful enough and grateful enough for the support of the United States. Lindsey Graham, who's a longtime friend of Ukraine, but also a Republican senator, said he'd never have been more proud of Donald Trump after he tore into Vladimir Zelensky. What do you make of that? Well, first of all, of course, we are extremely grateful to the American people, to the American politicians who have been standing against the terrifying Russian aggression

and help in Ukraine. So it's definitely unfair to say that we have never said thank you, because that's just merely not the fact. But I do think that there is lots of internal politics at play over there as well, which we understand. And we understand why the position of Lindsey Graham has been slightly, would it mildly changed compared to the way it has been a week ago. He even met Zelensky before that meeting. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed, he did. But then him calling for Zelensky to resign,

it's definitely stuck too far. If the US is calling for democratic elections in Ukraine, that is what its position should be that the leader of the democratic country is to be elected according to the procedures set up in that country and by the people of that country. So that's for Ukrainians to decide after all. Do you think Donald Trump in the United States wants Zelensky out? Well, we certainly have that impression that it has become a bit of a personal thing for the two leaders. I hope it will not come to that.

And I speak here as a member of opposition political party, but I recognize the legitimacy of President Zelensky and the legitimacy of him staying in office. That is in line with our constitution that we can't do elections under the martial law. I'm not even talking about the technical aspects of conducting elections under bombs. So we will probably need to find someone else to speak on behalf of Ukraine in DC, but we're definitely not going for elections just because the Americans want us to do so. Pete Slauson Coming out of the meeting yesterday, France proposed a one-month truce in the air and at sea.

This has been questioned by the UK and others as to whether something like this would be possible, but it seems to be one of the first steps that is being put into place to try to figure out how to create a ceasefire. What do you think it will take for the fighting to stop? Well, last night, and that's many nights in a row, there were over 100 drones flying from Russia into Ukrainian territory, bombing Ukrainian cities. So if, say, we agree to the ceasefire,

and Russians attack us with yet another drone attack, do we let them attack us, or do we fight back? So you see, it's always the Russians who are the first offender. It's unfair to ask the victim of the attack to stop defending itself. It's the conversation that needs to be held with Putin. Is he willing to oppose his fight? Is he willing to stop killing Ukrainians every day and every night? And we are not aware of any conversation with him. So I think it's a very vague discussion and we are not sure what are the terms of the Setsis 5 and if there is any sign of willingness from the Russian side to agree to that.

It doesn't sound like you have much hope for peace on the horizon. Look, nobody wants peace more than us. An hour ago we had yet another air raid alert in Kiev because fighter jets that might be carrying ballistic missiles took off in Russia. That meant that my son had to rush to the shelter at his school interrupting his classes and all of that. We don't want to live in that reality any longer, but we have to make sure that any

peace we get will not erupt in another war in a month or a year from that moment, and we would be not prepared to defend ourselves. I don't want my son to fight in this war five years from now, so that is why we need to come to those negotiations from a position of strength, and that is what we hope to show up with the Allies' help right now. Ina Solvstin, it's good to speak with you again. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Ina Solvstin is a member of Ukraine's parliament. She was in Kyiv. At BDC, we get that, and we're here to help you stay two steps ahead. With our flexible financing and advisory services, we help you adapt, growing your business in the face of today's challenges and tomorrow's opportunities. Stepping up for entrepreneurs, we're on it. BDC, financing, advising, know-how. There's no playbook for this type of fraud. Many couples dream of adopting a child. But what if that dream became a nightmare? She kept telling us, forget about Serena's baby.

Now Tara has a problem because there's no baby. And we all became investigators. From Sony Music Entertainment and Perfect Cadence, this is Baby Broker. Available now on The Binge. Search for Baby Broker wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Daniel Fried is a Weiser Family Distinguished Fellow at the Atlantic Council. He was formerly the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Europe and before that the U.S. Ambassador to Poland. He's in Washington, D.C that, the US Ambassador to Poland. He's in Washington, D.C.

Dan, good morning to you. Good morning. You're a diplomat for a long time. Have you ever seen anything like what unfolded on Friday? Nope, at least not in front of the cameras. I've seen, I've witnessed difficult and even heated discussions between leaders, but not in public, not like that.

What do you think was going on there? I mean, Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, was on television yesterday and was unbowed in what he was saying. He defended the president, defended the vice president, said that Ukraine had been ungrateful, Zelensky had been ungrateful. What sort of appetite in the United States right now is there for that? I think Secretary Rubio had to say what he said given the administration he's working in. I think what was going on was a display of

unnecessary aggression on the part of the president and the vice president, which helped no U.S. interests that I can identify. I think that President Zelensky did not handle himself as skillfully as he might have. I think there was a way to answer the questions that would make it harder, not easier for the president and vice president to follow up with a tax. But nevertheless, there was no good reason for the president and vice president to beat

up on Zelensky the way they did. There's no US interest served, especially ironic because the sketch, it's a rather ill-defined US peace plan, but as far as I can tell, it was beginning to get traction. The Europeans were stepping up. The Ukrainians had essentially agreed to a ceasefire if it were linked to security. The Europeans were talking about security guarantees with themselves in the lead. So this was a time when the US was making progress and it was no time to set things back and hopefully they can be made right now. The belief from some people is that it's the interests

of Russia that have been served by this. The Kremlin said this morning, the fragmentation of the West has begun. Yesterday, spokesperson for the Kremlin said that Washington's vision now aligns with Russia. Do you have any doubt?, well go ahead, sorry. I think the Russians are having a grand time, laughing at us, enjoying themselves.

I don't think the situation is, as Kremlin propagandists would put it. We've had a bad setback and for no good reason, but this is not necessarily a strategic catastrophe. It can be fixed. And if the Russians are as arrogant as those remarks you cited suggest, they may yet alienate Trump and he may decide that it is in his own best interests to allow the Ukrainians

to try to come back and to work with the Europeans on a plan which will advantage the United States, Ukraine and Europe. We're not there yet, but it's not a hopeless situation. Do you believe Donald Trump has chosen Russia over Europe? Not yet. I think there are parts of the administration and certainly parts of the Trump world which are favorable to Putin for all the wrong reasons. They like authoritarianism. They like his claim to be basically a right-wing nationalist. They identify with this.

They don't have to identify with the free world. But this is not all of Trump world and it certainly is not all of the Trump administration. There are other people in the Trump coalition who are more Reaganite, who do believe in the free world, who support Ukraine. They're not willing or feel themselves able to speak up. But I think what you were also seeing in the Oval Office on Friday was a display of some of the tensions inside the administration. And it's not hard to guess at some of the different arguments going on. I think that the Russians are, they're exaggerating the depth of this problem, partly because they want to and partly because they're egging on Trump to make this break permanent. I don't think we

have to be there yet. And what Prime Minister Stammer did over the weekend was helpful. And I think the Europeans could put themselves in a position to patch things up and get us back on the right track. Not saying it'll happen, I'm just saying that it could. Keir Starmer welcomed Vladimir Zelensky to London. The sense, and this is not just from Inna Sovson, but from others as well, is that the United States

is looking to get rid of Vladimir Zelensky. The National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz, said, we need a leader that can deal with us and eventually deal with the Russians and end this war. Lindsey Graham, the senator, said, I don't know if we can ever do business with Zelensky again. Is there a sense that they want Zelensky out? There have been other signs from the administration and other people inside the administration who have suggested they would like to see Zelensky apologize and then deal with him. There is no Ukrainian political leader

who could win an election in Ukraine who will be pro-Russian. That doesn't exist. Your previous guest was from the opposition. But if you listen to her, there's no difference on these key issues between her and Zelensky. There is no universe in which the Ukrainians elect a pro-Russian. So the US asking for a different leader is playing Russia's game because Russia wants to stall and avoid the pressure and avoid a ceasefire on anything except their own terms. We should not play Putin's game. The Europeans have taken a major step forward by offering to lead a force inside Ukraine without American boots on the ground.

This is the idea of the coalition of the willing. Yeah, that is a very big idea. A few months ago, I was talking to Europeans about doing just that because it was pretty clear this was coming, or this demand from the US was coming. And people looked at me like I had two heads. Macron was talking about it, but not seriously. Now they're serious. This could be a big win for Trump if he wants to claim it. The US has for decades said that Europe has to do more for its own security. Now the Europeans appear willing to try.

Their big ask is that the United States not put boots on the ground, but give them backup, including air power. This is a reasonable request. We should agree to it. United States not put boots on the ground, but give them backup, including air power. This is a reasonable request. We should agree to it. If that's the case, then the United States could push for a ceasefire. Zelensky, backed up by these military assurances, could agree to it with enthusiasm.

The Russians would be on the back foot. The mineral deal that wasn't signed but could be, actually turned out to be not too bad. Now, what you hear me doing is putting together the possibilities of a best case scenario from where we are. Not saying this will happen, but it could happen. And we'd be damn fools not to press for it. I just wonder what it would take,

we're almost out of time, but what it would take to get Zelensky back in that office. He was essentially escorted out of the White House on Friday. Yeah, that was a nasty piece of business. I think Zelensky is going to have to apologize. This is, politics is not for the purest. The point is not to be right,

the point is to get where you need to go. And I think Zelensky, who, as I said, didn't handle himself as well as I wish he would have, can try to make things right. Then the administration could accept it. Trump loves a drama, maybe the drama of a break, and then a makeup is what suits him. I'm looking for the way ahead

rather than admiring the problem. So optimism is a survival trait. It sounds like we're talking about a television show, not negotiations for peace. Well, you're talking about Donald Trump's worldview. We have to deal with the president of the United States that we've got. I'm not saying that with approval.

I'm saying that we have to recognize reality, deal with it, and get the best outcome we can given that reality. I was 40 years a diplomat. Being a diplomat means figuring out a way to move forward and play the cards you have, not the cards you wish you had. Dan Fried, good to speak with you. Thank you very much. My pleasure, Slavo Ucraini.

Daniel Fried is a Weiser Family Distinguished Fellow at the Atlantic Council, formerly the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Europe and the U.S. Ambassador to Poland.