The Current - Hospital network pledges millions to attract U.S. talent

Episode Date: April 9, 2025

A Toronto hospital network has a plan to recruit the best and brightest medical scientists from the U.S. and around the world, as funding cuts and layoffs put a chill on research south of the border. Matt Galloway discusses what Canada stands to gain with Kevin Smith, president and CEO of University Health Network; and Brad Wouters, UHN’s executive vice-president of science and research.

When they predict we'll fall, we rise to the challenge. When they say we're not a country, we stand on guard. This land taught us to be brave and caring, to protect our values, to leave no one behind. Canada is on the line, and it's time to vote as though our country depends on it, because like never before, it does. I'm Jonathan Pedneau, co-leader of the Green Party of Canada.

This election, each vote makes a difference. Authorized by the Registeredleader of the Green Party of Canada. This election, each vote makes a difference. Authorized by the registered agent of the Green Party of Canada. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. There is uncertainty, confusion and worry in the world of medical science in the United States. President Donald Trump's cuts to the National Institutes of Health, the world's largest source of research funding, mean that the future of research into things like cancer, Alzheimer's and

HIV is in many ways up in the air. Not to mention the future of the people actually doing that work. A recent survey in the journal Nature found that 75% of the scientists who responded are considering leaving the United States following Trump's cuts. Carol Labonne is a professor of molecular biosciences at Northwestern University. One place where you're seeing the most immediate effect is on the trainees who are the future of science in this country. Many are right now questioning the viability of being a scientist in the US going forward and who knows how many will end up abandoning their scientific careers moving to another country which could lead to further brain-dain from the US going forward. And who knows how many will end up abandoning their scientific careers, moving to another country, which could lead to further brain-dain from the US.

While all of this is not particularly great news for the pursuit of science south of the border, it is something that is attracting attention to the possibilities here in Canada. A network of hospitals in Toronto is launching a new program trying to attract the best and the brightest. That program is called Canada Leads. Kevin Smith is the president and CEO of UHN, the university health network in Toronto. And Brad Waters is executive vice president of science and research at UHN. And they're both with me here in our studio.

Good morning to you both. Morning, Matt. Good morning, Matt. Kevin, what has been your reaction as you watch what is happening to science and medical research in the United States? A bit of shock, to be honest, Matt. If you think about by far the country that has funded research in a way that no one else

has even considered around our globe. It's been the United States since World War II and it's turned into the economic superpower it is because they've translated that research into economic gain. So it has been surprising. It's been particularly surprising when we see some of the very best places like NIH and the world's great universities, many of which are located in the United States, turning into, to ask us and folks like us, what opportunities might be available in Toronto. You did some of your education down in the States, right?

I did, yeah, early on. Brad did much later, but in his postdoc. And I think all of us collaborate so intensively. It'd be impossible to be in science and not work with leading minds from the US. It is a, it's a beacon in science around the world. So what do you make, Brad, of what's going on? There used to be a bipartisan understanding

that science was something, um, that would be respected, that it would be believed in. That seems to have changed. What do you make of what's happening down there? It is a shock. We used to look with envy at the United States for a couple of reasons. One, the level of support and the investment in basic research that has fueled innovation, has fueled discovery, and has created opportunities for commercialization

and economic development is the envy of the world. And we used to wonder how in a country that often has a lot of political divide, they manage to have complete consensus on the need to fund research. And the committees that make up the decision for funding the NIH every year contain both Democrats and Republicans. And it was really the only space where they came together and every year continued to raise funding

and raise their ambition. And I think it really was because of the very tangible benefits that the elected officials see in their own districts across the entire United States. So I want to get to this project, but I mean, how do you understand what's happening there? It's hard to understand. As you know, we're watching and the media outlets from the United States, we're talking with scientists, we get regular calls from scientists and clinicians who are saying,

I'm thinking about what my future holds. But 10,000 plus people, some of the best and brightest have been laid off. Absolutely. When you take a look at that, I mean, as somebody who is involved in health care and in trying to further what we know, can you make any sense of why those 10,000 people would be sent out the door? I can't make sense of that. I don't have the lens that obviously the people who are making those decisions do.

But I think the other opportunity this offers us is not one of we're taking advantage as a weak player. We're taking advantage as a super strong player. So we're not unbended knee saying, let's go to the United States and beg some of these great people to come here. We have an amazing research ecosystem, the University of Toronto, University Health

Network, SickKids Hospital, Mount Sinai, all of the Sunnybrook, Unity, the list goes on and remarkable places. So we are actually a place that they are looking to and saying, this is one of the greatest concentrations of great scientists on the planet. It's well aligned with our value system. It respects academic freedom, and it wants people to ask curiosity or basic science-driven questions

right through to clinical application and then on to policy. So it's a great ecosystem, but this brings us the opportunity to make it much greater. When the predictable fall, we rise to the challenge. When they say we're not a country, we stand on guard. This land taught us to be brave and caring, to protect our values, to leave no one behind. Canada is on the line, and it's time to vote as though our country depends on it, because like never before, it does. I'm Jonathan Pedneau, co-leader of the Green Party of Canada. This election, each vote makes a difference.

Authorized by the Registered Agent of the Green Party of Canada. In the fall of 2001, while Americans were still grappling with the horror of September 11th, envelopes started showing up at media outlets and government buildings filled with a white white lethal powder, anthrax. But what's strange is if you ask people now what happened with that story, almost no one knows. It's like the whole thing just disappeared.

Who mailed those letters? Do you know? From Wolf Entertainment, USG Audio, and CBC podcasts, this is Aftermath, the hunt for the anthrax killer. Available now. When did you realize that there was an opportunity as you saw what was unfolding in the United States? When did you realize, Brad, you know what? We, Canada, could benefit from this. I think there's sort of two components to that. Certainly,

the support for research in the United States has been the basis for their success, but the real difference and the real contributions that are made there is based on the talent that they're able to bring to the United States. The United States has been the envy of the world in terms of the ability to attract the brightest and the best minds from around the world,

including many Canadians for a long time. And with that changing and with the uncertainty that's there and what we're hearing from scientists there that are worried about what that future looks like, others around the world that are questioning whether the United States might be the place for them in the future, it certainly raises the opportunity for that next generation of talent. This is a fight for talent. It is a fight for talent. And it's always been a bit of a fight for talent. You know, academics and research is a global sport. We recruit from people all over the world.

And when those that finish their degrees, they often consider opportunities anywhere in the world. So, you know, this has opened up an opportunity. Um, and then at the same time, you know, I think all of Canada is reflecting on, um, where it needs to make investments for the future of Canada, for the future prosperity of Canada, for economic development and investment in research and development. As Kevin said, there is a very strong asset here

for investment. Kevin, what is the goal, and ultimately, this project is called Canada Leads. What do you want to pull off here? So obviously we want to pull off the brightest and the best scientists augmenting the already brightest and best scientists we enjoy here in Toronto and at UHN. How many do you think you can land here?

To be honest, based on the number of people putting up their hand, we should be at a minimum for our nation targeting a thousand people. A thousand people. Of the best and the brightest who find themselves in an untenable situation in the United States who are looking for a safe harbor. At least a thousand people. And we are not talking about anybody but the best people out of the best labs complementing the best people who are already in Canada.

But Matt, there is a challenge and the challenge is access to ongoing funding. So we'll get them here, but we'll fail if they aren't able to achieve grants and actually get the resources required, including the infrastructure. So the next government of Canada, if we're being honest about being bold and making transformative

investments in our economy, we have to supersize the funding of research and we have to change the tax status for those who invest in research. It has to be like the United States. I want to come back to that in a moment. Who, Brad, if you take a look at the cohort of people that you want to land, who are we talking about here? What kind of people would you want to attract to this country? Well, the program that we're launching, the Canada Leads, is focused on the next generation of talent. So it's that group of superstars that are early in their career that are thinking about where they want to spend their career and make contributions to.

So it's not the established people, it's the next generation? It's primarily the next generation. There will be opportunities also for established scientists and we'll certainly be looking at those. But our, our initial approach here with the Canada Leeds program is focused on that next generation. And it's the generation probably most affected by what's going on now because the United States

essentially closed for business for the next year. There are, there will be very few new faculty positions, very few opportunities for those completing their graduate degrees. And there's just, there'll be an incredible cohort of talent, and it includes Canadians that are in that place too. And what can you, I mean, logistically,

can you pull this off? If somebody is involved in a lab, they're running a big lab, they're running clinical trials, can you realistically expect that they're gonna up and move to another country? We can. It happens all the time. The scientists and clinicians scientists make decisions throughout their career around movements and those movements are often global in nature and we're accustomed to bringing scientists from around the world to Toronto and to UHN.

The Princess Margaret Cancer Center, for example, are scientists. 30 or 40% of those are foreigners and came to Canada because of the opportunity here, because of the community here. What can you offer them? I mean, you said earlier academic freedom, which in this context is perhaps something that would turn people's heads, But what else can you offer people? I think we can offer them the richest environment of diverse minds, literally on the planet, when you think about the gathering of people across disciplines.

There's no place richer than the University of Toronto and the UHN network. So literally you can bring world experts from every discipline. And unlike the old days where when we did, let's say, cardiovascular research, we'd have a cardiovascular scientist and a cardiologist and a cardiac surgeon, that's not the group anymore. It's AI scientists, it's ethicists, it's a broadest combination of academic experts in the world. But the other piece of this one, Matt, that I think is really quite different is an intentional approach to commercialization.

That we're really looking at scientists with government and with those who choose to invest, like our philanthropists, who we think that there is a potential to build a Canadian ecosystem, not only of science, but of manufacturing and economic return for our nation. Can you offer them the same kind of financial package that they would get in the United States?

And I ask this in part because they're different countries with different ecosystems. We were speaking just a couple of weeks ago with, there are academics who are coming here and one of them from Yale said he's leading money on the table to come to this country. That's a decision that he has made. Not everybody is going to be able to or want to

make that decision. I would say we're very competitive in early career scientist compensation levels. Where we're not as competitive is access to grant funding and infrastructure. And NIH historically has seen big overhead payments, that's been a bit controversial and one of the reasons allegedly for cutbacks. So for us, I think we are

mindful that this isn't without risk, but nothing meaningful, nothing transformative is without risk. So it's worth the risk. We're hearing all the right noises from our federal candidates. We've heard all the right noises from many provinces, particularly our own premier. So we're enthusiastic. The other thing, we've had an unprecedented response from our foundation donors, philanthropists who've said, I see this as the future of our country. But you said earlier that you need to hear from whoever is going to lead government,

that they're going to supersize in some way. That was your word. Absolutely. Supersize the investment into research and into thinking about what we can be. What do you want to hear? We're in the midst of an we can be. What do you want to hear? We're in the midst of an election right now. What do you want to hear from those who want to

lead this country? Well, I think the historical ask has been to 5X research. If we're really serious and if we really want to be competitive with a country like the United States, it's 10Xing research through the tri-councils. What does that mean in terms of a dollar?

Well, it means going from a billion dollars a year to 10 billion dollars a year. And that's about $250 per Canadian per year to invest in our future economy. How is that missing, Brad, right now? If you take a look at the landscape that we're in right now, what aren't we doing? What aren't we as a nation funding? I think what we're missing primarily is the ambition to be the global leader, to be the best.

But that ambition comes with a bag of money, too. It does. But the ambition has to be the best that ambition comes with it that Bag of money it does but it you know, the ambition has to be there first and you know, as Kevin said we already have Incredible universities and health research hospitals in this country, you know, they're ranked amongst the best in the world The tech that base is here At Canada is a country that many people around the world would consider moving to. It has an attractive opportunity. And I think what the governments of today can do is to relook at research as a key opportunity for them to build a future science-driven economy. So tell me more about this, because again, this is, ambition can be about doing the research, but this is also about making the research come alive

and actually putting it to use. It is it's a much bigger ambition it's around the idea that research and development serves as the engine for future prosperity. It drives you know discoveries that will improve health but it also drives those new products those new solutions the new companies and this is what the United States has done so well. Can you give me an example of that, what they have done that we should model? I mean, is there an example practically of something that people would know of or would see and say,

that's not just research in the quote unquote ivory tower, but it's something that's actually going to impact. Well, take a look at what happened during COVID. So you've got scientists who came from Europe to the University of Pennsylvania. They discovered a mRNA-based approach to building vaccines that spawned the creation of Moderna, a company that is now a multi-multi-billion dollar company, tens of thousands of jobs and

creating huge wealth for the country. And there's no reason why this sort of anchor companies and pharmaceutical giants and so on can't be in Canada. We've got the strength at the research end. The investment that the government makes fuels that research, it helps create products, and then it attracts private capital. And the other big part that makes the United States successful is that handoff between what government is doing in academic centers and attracts private capital. And the other big part that makes the United States successful is that handoff between what government

is doing in academic centers and when private capital comes in and funds the creation of those companies, their scaling, their development, and then their future success. And that's the ambition is to have that entire chain from what government does and what public institutions do to the handoff to private equity and private capital and the creation of an industry behind it.

That vision and that ambition is what's needed. Kevin, you said we also need to look at taxation and tax structures. What specifically would easing a tax burden or a tax investment, depending on how you see it, on those structures mean for what you're trying to achieve. Yeah, I think the United States has proven money goes where it's most welcome. And if we're going to create an environment that says it's most welcome in investing in science and technology

and enterprises that create jobs and create long-term wealth for the country, then it means making sure that taxation for investment in science is well recognized. Where have you seen that? I mean, where the money has gone because it's favorable. Yeah. I would say if you look at Texas at the moment, why have many, many manufacturing giants moved from California to Texas? They've changed the tax status.

When we talk to companies who are thinking about launching here, and then they go and talk about a manufacturing facility south of the border. No taxation for the first 10 years on their physical plant. State or federal incentives around shred credits, which we do have in Canada, but we could do even more with, which are science and technology tax advantages. So there are so many opportunities. You know, we've had a donor at UHN calling for the opportunity to donate stock at a tax-free option, another opportunity that the current federal

government could consider if it's going into an area like research and development. And that's money that you think is worth giving up. I mean, those tax revenues would help pay for other things that citizens would benefit from. You believe that that's worth giving up? I think it's worth giving up. And Matt, I think there's another corollary we don't often think of.

In this country, we are not the fastest to adopt new technologies and fund them. It takes a long time. We often don't actually go in the first decile of people who are taking new therapies, new discoveries and turn them into funded and approved drugs or devices. And it's frankly clinical trials research that gives Canadians access to the very latest and greatest. And if we want to continue that while not further taxing the healthcare system, which is already

very fragile, then research is also an investment into protecting universal access to care. We just have a couple of minutes left. Brad, can I just ask you about what's going on? This is more about what's happening in the United States and the impact of that. Your research focuses on cancer? It is. So if the NIH is the largest funder of cancer research in the world, and there are thousands

of people who are going out the door and not doing that research, what is that going to mean for what we understand and what we're doing in fighting cancer? Yeah, it's an important point. We rely, the globe relies, the world relies on the efforts that all countries make towards research and cancer research, and a big part of that has been happening in the United States.

And to some degree, you can make the argument that we have been too self reliant on the United States for that progress. But it seems like we're all going to suffer if that research isn't being done. It is, it's a global effort and the United States has been a big part of it. And when they pull back, it slows down and the,

you know, the, the loss of research dollars, we have great colleagues in the United States. We collaborate, uh, we publish together, we run clinical trials together. Um, and even, you know, the effort that we're making. We collaborate, we publish together, we run clinical trials together. And even, you know, the effort that we're making on Canada leads, we see opportunities to continue to make sure we strengthen those relationships with great research partners in great universities and research institutions in the United States.

That will continue. I have to let you go, but you have competition from Manitoba, British Columbia. They are, those provinces are trying to attract the best and brightest to those jurisdictions. If everybody's working together, Kevin, just very briefly, what do you think the opportunity is here? For all of us. I truly think the opportunity is to right size the Canadian science enterprise, to address what's happening in the United States and continue the trajectory of great discovery and translation into great economic wealth.

Most importantly, I think it's the opportunity for a scientific community nationally in Canada to better focus on the solutions that mankind really need us to solve. We will pay attention to this and watch this unfold in the meantime. Good to have you both here. Thank you.

Thank you. Kevin Smith is President and CEO of the University Health Network in Toronto. Brad Waters is executive vice president of science and research at UHN.