The Current - How did Louise Penny predict the future in her new book?

Episode Date: November 22, 2025

Louise Penny’s new novel explores a sinister plot to make Canada the 51st state, but she’s keen to point out that she wrote it before Donald Trump was re-elected as U.S. president. She spoke with Matt Galloway live on stage at the Haskell Free Library — right on the U.S.-Canada border — about life imitating art, and why she cancelled her U.S. book tour. They're joined on stage by Montreal singer-songwriter Patrick Watson, to discuss the intersection of art and politics.This special bonus podcast episode was recorded with a live audience at the Haskell Free Library and Opera House, a unique venue straddling the border between Quebec and Vermont.

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Brought to you by Egg Farmers of Canada. This is a CBC podcast. Hi, I'm Matt Galloway. I want to tell you about a great conversation we have this week. Louise Penny is a best-selling author, National Treasure. She just released her latest novel, The Black Wolf. This book is about a sinister plot to make Canada the 51st state. Earlier this year, Louise Penny announced that she actually would not be traveling to the United States to promote it.

I'm sitting right now in the cafe that she created, inspired by a cafe in her. books. It's called the Three Pines Cafe. I spoke with Louise Penny on stage this week. In this amazing venue in the eastern townships of Quebec, the U.S. border runs right through the venue. It's called the Haskell Free Library in Stansted, Quebec. You can catch that full program on our feed if you missed it, but for now, here is my conversation with the great Louise Penny. There aren't many authors so beloved they inspire their own bus tours. Louise Penny is one of them. Feathing Chief Inspector Armand Gamash paint a picture of the eastern townships that is so vivid and so welcoming you want to move right in.

Those books have made her famous here in Canada and in the U.S. and around the world. And as time has gone by, Louise's novels have taken a bit of a darker turn. If you've read her latest, The Black Wolf, you would be forgiven for wondering if she has psychic powers. I am under the threat by some fans of hers of great punishment if I deliver spoilers. So we won't do any of that. But I will tell you that this book was written well before Donald Trump was reelected, but imagines a plot to turn Canada into the 51st state.

And as I say, part of that novel is set right here in this very theater. We are so, so pleased to have her with us. Please welcome, if you would, National Treasure, Louise Penny. How are you? I'm really good. I feel like I want to go out and come in again.

I just keep doing that all night. This is wonderful. What a great aunt. And so attractive. You know how to win a crowd over. This place, I mean, it's a beautiful theater. What is this place? This, the room that we're in right now,

what does it mean to you? Oh, well, it means. exactly what you were saying. It means unity. It means community. It means a sense of belonging where there is a border, but there is no border. It's bricks and mortar, but it's so much more than that. This is a heart and a soul. And that's what this building incorporates and encapsulates. I mean, it's wonderful that it's art that is bringing people together in that way too. Yeah. It's a library and also a opera is in a theater. Who attacks a library?

No, honestly. Well, we'll get into that. I think we have some names that come to mind. You're waiting for me to say it. I mean, because people may not know. It used to be that the access, at least to this very building, was different. And now you have to change how you get in. You can't walk on the sidewalk if you're Canadian.

You have to come in through a separate door. you gave $50,000 for a new door for the Canadian side that some of our Canadian guests may have come to. Thank you. I do just want to say that the reason, and I'm being very honest with you,

the reason I could afford to do that is because of your support, because financially I've been so fortunate over the course of a 20-year career, They're so much more fortunate than I ever had the right to expect. And so it just seemed natural, absolutely natural, to say thank you and give some of, not all of it, give some of it back. You also said, creating the new door, these are your words, it's like giving the finger to the current administration. You close one door, we'll open another.

And how symbolic are doors? Doors. They closed a door. And how elegant is the solution on the Canadian side to totally supported by the American part of the organization here to just say, well, that's all right. We'll just open our own. We'll open our own door. How perfect is that? And that's what happened. Well, as the Canadian side, and I know about three quarters of the audience here,

came in through the Canadian door. Yeah, like, that is not an attractive entrance. But I got to say... I don't know where the rest of my $50,000. We'll do an audit on that. You're good friends with Hillary Rodham Clinton. You wrote a book with her. Yes, yes.

Have you had any conversations with her about what's going on right now? A few. Would you care to share the tenor and the tone of those conversations? I mean, what... Well, she loves, first of all, I do want to say she loves...

She loves the eastern township. She loves coming up to North Hatley. We stay at Hovey Manor. How fortunate is that and go to the areas around here. And she was here this past summer. Obviously, we talked a lot. We were sitting on the veranda of Hovey and she said that it's the first time since the inauguration that she's felt safe. I've never heard her say that before. Yeah, I mean, she's afraid. And she's afraid. I think she's afraid for the first time physically, but she is certainly afraid for the American democracy in the American Republic. As I mentioned, there's a scene in the book that takes place here. And we can't give anything too much away. People say, yes, don't give anything away. But it's a conversation. What I can say. But I won't give anything away that's actually a plot oriented. But it was fun for me because what I will say is that Armand comes here. to meet someone, an American, but he can't cross the border.

And he's thinking, how is that going to happen? And then he remembers, of course, the Haskell Free Library and Opera House. But the conceit is that he's coming here to see a show. So I had free reign to choose what show would he see. And so I decided that he would be coming, and the Haskell Opera House would be putting on Billy Bishop Goes to War. These are the things you can do. Use your imagination.

Because I am God. In your books, yes. You started this book before Trump was re-elected, right? I started this book because it's two halves of a whole. The first half is, in fact, I think of my books as one book with 20 chapters. But this particular duo is two halves of a whole, starting with the gray wolf and then the black wolf is the second half of it so in fact it was designed three years ago then the gray wolf was written and then the black wolf was finished um gosh almost a year ago now

and so how do you at that point start thinking about 51st state long before those words have come out of the current president's mouth you worried you said to me that you worried that you'd gone too far now you worry whether you didn't go far enough yeah yeah it was it was a bit of a shock to hear hear Trump talk about the 51st state. It just, if you read the book, you'll see that it just seems, I hope, like a natural progression, that that is where this would end up. Fortunately, for all of us, you know, something happens.

But in the real world... Otherwise, a very boring book. I wouldn't buy it myself. But yeah, so it just seemed like a natural progression. And then when it actually happened in the real world, I had two, Matt, I had two reactions. Well, one was obviously as a Canadian, I was appalled. And unsure how seriously to take it, I think we're still trying to parse that. The other part was obviously thinking more personally, if this is in my book, are people going to think that I've simply ripped it from the headlines and ripped it off

and taken advantage of what is a very shattering experience? And also, by the time the book came out, which was about three weeks ago, will people be tired of talking about it, which obviously we're here now talking about it? I don't think so. No. How seriously should we take it, do you think? That is a really interesting question. I think it would be foolish to underestimate what he's capable of

I think that there is no downside to taking it extremely seriously I think if we look at the steps that have happened I think that there is not a country that's been invaded I don't think that there is a peoples who have been targeted or an individual

who's been rounded up who hasn't looked back and thought what did I miss where was the moment when it could have been stopped and I think we're living through that moment right now and I think it behooves all of us certainly behooves me because I'm 67 I am 20 years into a career that is so overshot

any of my expectations as I said before if I don't stand up and I am in a position where I can then shame on me I think it's time that we stood up those of us who can do Can I ask you about that career that you say has overshot all reasonable expectations? You left the best job there is. You were a CBC radio journalist. Oh.

Does anyone here remember me from radio news? The one o'clock time signal. At the sound of the long dash. Beginning of the long dash. Famous for it. That in the hog market reports. Yeah, it was a great career. I mean, part of it is about a gamble.

Like, you think you can do this? You wonder what's going to happen? You know, to go back seriously to the career, do what you do, which clearly you are at a whole other level than I could have ever achieved. And you do it because you are brilliant, but you also listen. You listen closely.

And that was a great gift for me to be able to listen for 15 years to people who were something extraordinary. It happened in their lives. They don't end up on the show without something wonderful or bad happening. So you get to see people in extremists. And as a writer, that is extremely helpful. And you get to hear how people talk and express themselves. So it was really great.

But I eventually, after the Quebec referendum, I just, and it was so close, and everybody was shattered. The people who won, the people who loved, nobody felt like they had won. And it just, I had had enough. I had crossed a line. And I'm really embarrassed to be sitting here saying that Canadian politics brought me to my knees.

But it did. And so I quit with Michael's, my husband's support, and wrote. And, yeah, it was something I'd wanted to do since the age of eight and put off for fear of failure. Fear has been such a tyranny in my life and I finally really had to say now or never you're going to reach the end of your days never having done the one thing you only ever wanted to do

for fear so I finally thought let's just do it and then I ended up realizing that what I needed to do was not right for my mother's approval for my professor's approval for my former colleagues approval, just write a book I would read. And if it's never published, if it's not any good, it doesn't matter. The contract with my eight-year-old self is that it be written. Good for you. And good for us.

I said at the beginning about the bus tours, you've created this world. We went yesterday to your cafe, Cafe Three Pines in Nolton, which is built out of your imagination. We go in, and Louise is there with her dogs, Muggins and Charlie, and there are people who have arrived to say hello, and they want to talk to you, and you're very generous,

and you're willing to shake your hands with everybody and sign everything, and why is that space so important to you? You just seem so happy and at home there. That's such a great question. much like writing the books I created the bistro the cafe three pines which is meant to be a reflection of the bistro from the books

and I did it because I was again in the fortunate financial position where I was able to buy the building that the bookstore is in because I didn't want someone to buy it and maybe move the bookstore or evict them and then I realized that the basement was empty, it was just this really very

dreary office space and I thought all these great bookstores that I get to go in when I'm on tour, many of them have cafes attached so I thought we'll attach a cafe. It's one of those things that sounds good, right, until you start and Danny and Lucy who are downstairs now and they're selling books and other things.

They are so great and at one stage I had to go up and said, now the stairway attaching downstairs and your bookstore is going in tomorrow. And they said, there's a stairway. And I say, yeah, yeah. And the thing is, it goes right through your bathroom. They just, they smiled all the way through the whole thing.

But it has become more than the sum of its parts, much like this building is, any building is, that's like home is. It's become a safe place, I hope, for people. people, where, where diversity, equality, and inclusion are important, where goodness exists. Can I ask you just finally about that, about a place where decency and goodness exist? Is it hard to find that now? There's a lot of bad news, and it's tricky for people to look for hope and look for something good because of all of the bad that's coming towards you.

And yet you, that's a, you know, there's joy that's around you. It is joy. You really focus on that. Is it hard for you to find? Because it's so easy to stand in the shadows, because you can hide in the shadows. What you want to do is, is stand in the light and look at the positive. It takes so much more courage and character to be kind than it does to be cruel and cynical. And...

And one thing that I always try to remember is that if I was in trouble and I was in the American South, probably in a community with people who don't share my beliefs, and I was in trouble and I knocked on their door, they are not going to ask who did you vote for. They're going to let me in and they're going to help me. And I know that in my heart, as I would help them. And I think that's vital to remember that, that at our core, we are all. and we all want to be decent and we all want to be kind. That is Louise Penny.

Her new book is called The Black Wolf. Will you stay here with us? I want to talk a little bit more. You're not getting rid of me. About the border. We have, she's going to hang around. We have some amazing music. I mentioned we have a wonderful guest who's going to perform.

There's a grand piano that's right here with a bunch of equipment that's all around it as well. He was born in California. He grew up just outside of Montreal. He is known around the world for his beautiful music. I have wanted to have him perform live on a radio program that I have been hosting for a long time. And I can't quite believe that he's here to do that for us this evening.

His new album is called Uh-oh. He's just back from a tour of Europe. Please welcome, if you would, to the stage of the Haskell Opera House, Patrick Watson. Thank you for being here. Such a pleasure. Before you play something, tell us about the record. Uh-oh, we were just talking about bad news, and that's kind of a phrase that people use.

They turn on the radio, they open the newspaper, and it's, uh-oh. Well, I think we were thinking about the title of this record, and I was like, listen, since COVID, it just seems like every morning is always uh-oh. And I was like, I didn't know what else to call the record. and I was like and the other thing I thought a lot about was a lot of times when you look historically speaking

when things get a little bit when these transitional periods or difficult periods the sad clown becomes a really prominent character in the arts and theater and he makes this appearance always in these moments so as I was writing the lyrics of the record I kind of wanted to take the idea of being the sad clown like the Charlie Chapman

in the 20 notes in a way to make ridiculize yourself in all the ridiculous uh-ohs out there and to try to find some sense inside that way so I guess the title really came from that idea, you know? What is it that music can do? I mean, do you listen to music when the news is terrible? Is there something that music can give you to kind of take you

out of that world? Yeah, I mean, music is like, I mean, it's weird to ask me. I mean, obviously I play, so I play a lot more than just listen, but, you know, I feel like if I get on stage, and I'm in front of a crowd, doesn't matter where I am, who are they are, that, for one hour

and a half, we will be together, and time will stop. You know, and that is my job is to make time stop, and to make people have a moment where all the world stops and it becomes like their own little movie. So I guess I think a lot of it like that, you know, and I think music does this many different vitamins in music. Like if you have heavy metal, you need a little heavy metal in your life.

Maybe you have quiet music, you need a little quiet in your music. And they're all different vitamins that pop music is great sometimes when you want to dance in the world to taste like sugar. You put pop music on. So I think of music a lot like food and which vitamin you need and which moment you need it. you have some people on stage with you tonight who's going to help you stop time

well the first time she'd be singing with us for the first time Shane has come to sing with us tonight and she's an incredible singing and we have also the lovely Mishka it's been 20 more than 25 years we've been playing music together he's amazing

yeah we're going to cause some trouble I don't know try to make the world stop I don't know and what are you going to play first we're going to play a house on fire it's a song it's a song that I had written with Martha Wayne originally, and this song was a funny thing, because

the song was, from my first came up to the song from my perspective. My perspective was, like, sometimes there's two truths, and that at what point do you need your truth to be right if the whole house burns down? And the question of the song is at what point do you need you to be right for your whole house to burn down?

And then I invite Martha over, and Martha's like a firewall. She's like, I'm not into your little two-truths thing. because she had a totally different experience. So the song itself and the songwriting became kind of like the conflict, which was really great. I mean, that's why I wanted to sing with Martha in the first place

because she's like Fireball, you know, and she's explosive personality, she's a bit of a punk, and anyway, so when you hear the different parts singing, it's not the same song or the same perspective, it's two different perspectives that are kind of like coexisting in one song, and yeah, something like that.

It's called House on Fire. Fantastic. Here we go. Here we go. Here we go, ready? Oh, we go, we're going to do it. No, I'm sorry. I keep trying to see your side Even though I just want to hide

We are worlds We are stones It's worse and still we are thrown When all our love go Out your eyes get You can wrap your truth In limited bars But I just don't know how to be

some of my mind made out of holes tell me something that I'm running right Oh Oh I'll be wrong You'd be right Out of my mind And he's one way to ride

Chairs could fly The kids could cry Why not like our house on fire? Our house is a very fine house And if I are harsh when you duck You can take your hands and cover your ears Scream so loud that it never can leave And I don't want to do this in

if you're right, I don't mind I just want to make it right I was yours in the mind there was so much on the line and I keep trying to see a sign even though I just

want to hide I was Drink the rain and bent to the sun When we were young Now we're counting down to when we can Take the pictures of the wall The portraits in the hall When he walked out the door

I don't love you can he hear their voices call can he hear his voices call can me hear his voices for our love to break the fall For I love to break the fall

For I love to break the fall For I love to break the fall For I love to break the fall For I'm going to be right out of mind Putt me over Oh break the fold I'm so much on the line

I can't see the side even though I just went out even though I just want to hurt I can't see through all the deeps I can see through all the years I can't carry all the way to follow I can carry all of these lives I can't care

I can't see through all the tears I can't see through all the years I can't carry all of these lives I can't see through all the tears I can see through all the years. I can't carry all these lives, I can carry all these lives. I can see through all the tears, I can see through all the years. I can carry the weight of our lives, I can carry all of these lives.

Live on stage at the Haskell Opera House, Patrick Watson, Shana Hayes, and Mishka Stein. Canadians love Canadian eggs. You can count on them to be fresh, local, and reliable, because for every egg, It takes a farmer. Up early, working hard, meeting Canada standards. And behind every egg farmer is supply management. A made-in-Canada system that delivers a steady supply of eggs produced right here at home. Learn more at eggfarmers.ca.com slash supply management.

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dedicated underwriter today for simple to complex and everything in between intact insurance. I'm Matt Galloway. This is a special edition of the current. We are in Stansted, Quebec, live from the Haskell Alpha House. A rowdy crowd split between Canada and the United States. With me on stage, Polaris Prize winning a musician Patrick Watson and best-selling author Louise Penny. The last time you and I spoke, Louise, you had decided to cancel your book tour in the United States because of this 51st state business. You said you're not going down to the United States. You said it was a moral wound, and the decision to not go to the U.S. was immediate.

Are you still holding to that? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. There's no... There's no... Why is it so important for you to hold the line on that? You know, that's an interesting question. I wish I could articulate it.

It's just instinctive that this is a country that has declared war on us. And while lives perhaps have not been lost, although that might be debatable, livelihood certainly have. And I'm not going to go and support a regime that has done that. And I've tried in my social media and in my mind and in my heart to separate the administration from the people. And that's, it's much the same way that I've said to my publishers, I had a book contract with Russia. And when they came to renew it, I said, no, I'm not going to renew book contract with Russia, not until they get out of Ukraine. How are you thinking about this, Patrick?

You recorded part of this record in New Orleans, in Los Angeles as well, and you're headed on tour. As an artist, how do you think about this stuff? Well, I guess I've been traveling since I was 16 on tour, right? So it's very, there's like 26, 30 years of tour. And so I guess when I travel, I don't really think about countries or cities or places anymore. I just remember it becomes like my job is not to be about borders.

My job is entirely the opposite where people forget borders, you know? which is different than an author because an author's job is to be critically thinking about time and politics. We have very different jobs that way. And then my reflection on that always is that when you cut the arts or you start to cut the phone ties, I often

worry that that maybe make the situation worse because if they're faced as seeing a Canadian in front of them, they're going to have to have the conversation very differently when they watch news because they're like, oh, last night I just had a Canadian in front of me and maybe I don't want to go and made their country because it seemed pretty chill.

So I always You know Even in music I don't dabble into politics too much Musicians are very hot-headed When we speak about things It always comes out too hot-headed I have many opinions about things

But I try to stay away Unless I can have a real long nuance conversation about it I know the first dates in America We had cancelled and didn't tour right away And that was mainly out of fear Because we travel in small towns And you know when America gets all weird Which is not the first time

it's gotten weird. After September 11th, traveling was very scary in the States. You could be pulled over by any cop at any moment. And, you know, so it's not the first time I've seen America have a difficult period. But, I mean, at the same time, I think them forced to having a conversation with a Canadian and watching a Canadian on stage, I still think that from a pragmatic point of view, maybe it's helpful, maybe it's not so. But I think when you're a writer, you have a very different job.

your job is to, you know, really have a nuanced, interesting, political conversations, and you're investigating and be critical thinkers, you know, writers are critical thinkers. Musicians are like, we put our heart in the sleeves and we explode a bit, you know, but you're so elegant, and you're such a good communicator with words, it's much different than when someone's like, so when you speak, I'm like, oh, God, it's like so nice to hear someone love it. Anyway, I'll say. Do you know what I was thinking, though, when you were talking,

is that I think, much like in the environmental movement, for anything to really grab hold and make progress, you have to work on different levels and from different angles. So some of us stand back and say, we're not going to go. Some brave people go and make the statement by being there. And I think that's really important as well.

It's a combination, yeah. Yeah. I think you may have very different jobs, like in that way, you know, and I really respect authors about what, their role is in society. I think it's much more than just writing books, you know, like, I think they're critical thinkers of the world. So, I think it's really interesting or different when you approach that subject than when I approach it, because my job is to go there and make people feel something, you know what I mean, and to kind of, you know, and yes, have thoughts,

but I'm supposed to inspire imagination, inspire, like, you know, I play a song, and you're like, oh, God, remember when I buried, you know, and then they start crying. That's a very different job, you know. And but also, your point was so great about, but you're a Canadian, your in front of them. You're making them feel something. And if you, it's very hard to hate a friend. And that's, that's what you're doing is you are helping people come to that realization that Canadians aren't the people who may have never met a Canadian are coming to see your shows and realizing that's what a Canadian is. Yeah, and it'd be really tricky the next day when they see Fox News and we're like, we're invading Canada. We're like, I saw that Canadian. He's got very

weird hair, yes. I don't think he's a drug dealer. Can I ask you before I let you go? Don't let her go. She's in my band now. You're not letting her to go anywhere. You would have her here all night. You said this cannot be undone. This profound friendship between these two nations cannot be undone.

So where do we go from here? That's kind of the question. You know what we do? What we do is we find common ground. There's so much that we should. share. There's more, and I'm not the first to say this, more that we share than than that separates us.

And it takes a force of will to find that because it's so easy to find fault. And I think what we have to do is try to find that common ground. At the same time, I'm so proud that Canada has stood up for itself and said this far and no

further. Well, talk more about this, Patrick, a little bit later on, but in the meantime, Louise, she's staying, right? She's going to be, I don't know what instrument she's going to play, but we're going to get an instrument in her hands. I'm not playing unless she's here. She's going to join her back.

Louise Penny, everybody. I'm going to grouping. For more CBC podcasts, go to CBC.