The Current - How should we rethink the school lunch hour?

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Fighting with your kids over packing a lunch, or worrying about scraping together lunch money could be a thing of the past. The Canadian government has pledged to make a National School Food Program permanent, but not all school boards are putting those funds to lunch, opting for snacks and breakfast programs instead.

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This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. Let's talk kids' lunches for a minute. I have super picky kids. I hate packing lunches, and I really don't like when food comes back in the lunches because it wasn't eaten. It's the middle of the school year. I don't know about you, but I feel pretty stuck about what to make when it comes to school lunches. Not going to lie, making lunches is the last thing I want to do.

right now, but it's the last lunch I have to make for the week. Yay. Let's do this. You staring in the fridge right now, dreading the task of packing your kids lunch, or maybe you are a parent who happens to live in a school district with a lunch program, so that meal is already taken care of. For many Canadian families, a prepared school lunch may be one step closer. Last week's federal budget pledged to permanently fund a national school food program. But there are still a lot of questions about what that will look like and how many kids will actually take part in said program. As part of our ongoing series, looking at the state of public education in this country, we are talking today about lunch. Amberley Ritz is a researcher,

co-chair of the Canadian Association for Food Studies School Food Working Group. Amberley, good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Good to have you here. As you understand it, and we'll get into the details, but what do you make broadly of the federal government's plan to permanently fund this national school food program? I think it's been a long coming and a wonderful initiative. We know that it won't be enough money to get to a robust national school lunch program, but it is a solid foundation from which to build. So advocates and researchers alike are celebrating this very welcomed historic commitment to having healthy food at school permanent. And we know we need more money to get to that robust program in every level of government and other groups getting together to fund a robust national school lunch and breakfast program. Some of the parts of that foundation are already in place. In 2024, the Trudeau government announced a billion dollars over five years

for a national school food program, and there were agreements signed with every province and territory. Already, how many kids have access to food through this program? Yeah, we know that at least one and four students across Canada access a school lunch or breakfast program every single day, and we know that's growing. The government's commitment was to make school food accessible to 400,000 more students every year through that national commitment. Can you make the case for this? I mean, there are a lot of financial pressures facing the federal government, and governments have to take tough choices when it comes to what to fund.

Why is a school lunch program, a national school lunch program, worth the investment? Absolutely. we know that having healthy access to food at school can transform a child's life into their adulthood. That's when healthy eating habits are instilled. And that's where, you know, we can really transform the health of the nation, a health of kids and our economy and, you know, people for generations that come. So, and it can really help parents right now as well. You know, you heard all those intros of parents having picky eaters, not having time. There's a various reasons why, you know, parents struggle to pack lunches for school. So it can really be a generational

impact. That's worth making. If parents can afford, you could imagine people are listening saying if parents can afford to pay for the lunch. I mean, this isn't about what we heard isn't about people who couldn't afford. They're just staring in the fridge trying to figure out what to make. If they can afford to pay for a lunch, why should the government pay for it instead? Well, there are models such as a sliding scale model where depending on what you can afford and people have different economic hardships depending on, you know, their circumstance in life and depending on where they're at that month. So a sliding scale model, a pay what you can model, I think offers that flexibility to support

where parents can, and not everyone is at that circumstance at the same time throughout the year. Part of this is also about addressing food insecurity. What do we know about how many kids are dealing with food insecurity and what that does to their ability to learn in the classroom? Absolutely. Even thinking yourself as an adult, right? If you went to work every day without a breakfast and a lunch, how effective would you be, right? So we know that that's a huge challenge for students. And unfortunately, it's only growing greater in this country. So this will not solve food insecurity, but it will support students that can't access food. And we know that we need basic income supports and other supports to really tackle food insecurity in this country. And is providing a lunch through a program the best option compared to just giving more money to families, putting more money in their pocket through something like the Canada Child Benefit? Well, when it comes to healthy meals at school, we know that they are often healthier than what is packed just because of everything from time pressures of parents that do have the economic means, but at the time, that may be time poor, or they are lacking in resources. So being able to access that healthy lunch, you know, and be able to instill healthy eating habits, eating amongst our peers, we know as well established in the research can have a big impact for their lives to come.

There are some school districts across the country that are already involved in this offering school lunch programs. And so stick around because I want to talk a little bit about what's already happening in this country. Brady Wiler is director of the Nanaudok-Mitsuan school lunch program in Alberta. It serves breakfast, lunch, and snacks to students at 10 different schools in that province. And Sean McNeil is Director of Strategy, Policy, and Seniors for the Department of Social Development on Prince Edward Island, funding that province's school lunch program. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Sean, how does this work on PEI?

What does the lunch program look like there? While we operate in all 62 publicly funded schools, we actually have funding responsibility, so we provide core operational funding to P.E.I. School Food Incorporated, which is an NGO that administers the school lunch program on our behalf. And as Amberly said, we use a pay-what-you-can model where parents get to choose to pay all some or none of the cost of the meal, up to a maximum cost of 575 and that program is accessible to all 22,000 students in the K to 12 public schools in PEI. And what do the students get?

So it's a full nutritious lunch meal. So there is a rotating menu. I believe they go on three week rotation just to make sure there's a variety and there's a vegetarian and meat-based option each day and then both options can be made gluten-friendly. How did you land on that sliding scale model? I think it was just a recognition that we wanted it to be both barrier-free and stigma-free. So if parents are in a position to pay for their lunch, they're encouraged to do so. But it's also recognized that people face various challenges.

And so we wanted to make it so that they got to choose the level of payment that they wanted to make. And the government has to backstop that. How does the government pay for those lunches? Yeah, like I said, we do core operational funding to the NGO. Our funding agreement provides up to a certain amount of money, and then it's based on actual utilization rates. So we have quarterly meetings with the NGO, very sort of transparent relationship between the two of us.

They're great to keep us up to date with statistics and utilization rates, and then based on that utilization, we will reimburse them to the certain amount of their overall costing. Brady, tell me how the program that you're involved in works. You run the food program for an indigenous school district that serves, what, 2,300 staff and students? Tell me how that works. Yeah, well, we've got 2,300 staff and students over 10 schools that are dispersed amongst

the four nations of Muscoachia and Alberta. So we basically were operating a full Whole Foods program, breakfast, lunch. two snacks per day, one entree offering per day. But we have a full salad bar with four or five selections daily. And that's kind of where the choice comes in for the students. And this isn't just about serving the food. This is also about sourcing and making and storing the food, right? Absolutely.

We have a great local food system where we have part. partners with greens producers, meat producers, we have a relationship with an orchard, and that's all brought into a central warehouse, and then we distribute that to the kitchens from that one central location, which is kind of the key to keeping our costs at the level that they are. Hello, it's Ray Winston. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Theory. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to history's toughest heroes wherever you get your podcast. I want to get to the cost in a moment, but what's the origin story of this? Why is something like this necessary in the 10th? schools that I mentioned you operated? Well, you know, a lot of people ask that question.

Ultimately, what boils down to is if you have these young people in our charge from 8 to 8.30 in the morning until 3.30 in the afternoon, there's kind of an obligation and a responsibility to make certain that you're not the only one eating lunch at lunchtime or breakfast at breakfast time. We're having a snack when you need one. Yeah, and hungry kids just don't learn. So, and it started out quite small with a toast cart and it's, you know, become what it is today. How much does it cost?

The average, I mean, for easy math, let's just say it's $1,000 per year all in. The average food cost per day is about $0.65 per person per day. That doesn't seem like a lot of money. No, I mean, people spend more than that on a cup of Starbucks every day, to be honest. and the reason it works is because the school district owns it. It's not a for hire thing. So the school board is taking the responsibility to provide these meals and invest in the people from the community to create those meals. And to get further, the students are involved in the production of some of the meals as well.

Good ideas should be stolen with credit. Do you think that people could steal this and scale it up? perhaps in more urban settings? Oh, it doesn't need to be, I think, part of our mandate is to share, you know, our successes and our failures. It's not proprietary at all. Yeah. But is it the kind of thing that somebody could take and scale up in a different community? The bones of it, absolutely.

Like, every district is different and local means different things in each district. But the bones of it, absolutely, you know, you know, but the key thing is that you need the buy-in, basically, from, superintendent's level down. So it requires the work of everybody from from the cooks to the superintendents, the teachers, the principals, support staff. Everybody has a role to way. But you said something really interesting and you were just kind of casual as you said it, which is that hungry kids don't learn. What have you heard from students about what this is meant for them? Well, I've talked to students that are appreciative of it. But I get more. I've heard more from community members like, for example, if I, in recent job interviews, a fellow sat across

for me almost in tears. And he just simply said, if this program existed when I went to school, my life would be different to me. And that sort of resonates and probably will for a while. Sean, can you talk a bit more about that? I mean, from a government perspective, what are the benefits that you see in terms of this is an investment? Money, you know, as they say, it doesn't grow on trees.

you have a pie that you have to divide up and you're taking some of that pie to fund a program like this. What are the benefits that you see? And why is that a good investment for the government? Yeah, I mean, I think we have tried to prioritize addressing food insecurity in the province. So this is one of multiple measures

that we've taken to try and make some progress in that area. I think if you take care of a lunch meal or provide at least access to a lunch meal, lunch meal for every student in the province, sort of 10 months of the year. I think that's a pretty significant activity and effort. So I think we see it, like I'll be honest, we're not, like I'm not from the Department of Education. Recognize performance in school and ability to learn is extremely important, but our primary focus within my department is food insecurity. And this is an effort that we're trying to, trying to make to address childhood food insecurity.

Have you been able to measure health and well-being? outcomes when it comes to those students who are part of a program like this? For us, it's been around the childhood food insecurity rates. That's where, in the last year, we've seen some forward progress, so that's really encouraging. Those rates have dropped? Yes. I mean, you know, any number is still too high, but we've seen the number moving in the right direction, so that's encouraging that the efforts we're making are having some impact.

Amber Lee, you've been listening to this. I mean, if you take a look at these programs that exist right now, two very different programs, but ones that both of these individuals say are having real material impact in the communities. Why is it difficult, or why has it been difficult, to ensure that these sorts of programs exist right across the country? I think what these two programs really showcase that school boards and others that want to scale up their programs can learn is really about the infrastructural assets, really thinking long term about school meals. You know, in PEI, there's a nonprofit that has some centralized. with some robust local food sourcing, and they've been able to achieve that, in part, I think, because of their great infrastructure.

And in Brady's program, they literally have their own school food warehouse. That was an old previously grocery store that they acquired. And because of that, they have their own trucks on the road that goes and gets the food. And Brady could speak much more to the power of this. But, you know, he shared with me prior that that's really reduced food costs almost by half, right? when you be able to procure that yourself as opposed to a third-party supplier and being able to control the quality of the food

because you're able to get those local apples that grass-fed and finished beef just north of them. So I think what school boards and those that really are thinking long-term about school food to think about how that they can do some powerful centralization to scale up and to really have control over the food system that they want and support the food system that they want.

So that's what I would like to emphasize. But the comment was also made, and those points are important, the comment was also made that if kids are going to be in your care from 8.30 in the morning until the middle of the afternoon, that you need to make sure that teachers aren't the only ones who are eating. Does that, is that a rethink of how we look at school and the responsibility of those overseeing the schools when it comes to the care of the students who are there in class?

Absolutely. I mean, the argument could be made that we provide computers and we provide libraries and other buses and other things. But why isn't it that a lunch that you and I eat when we work all day? Why isn't that provided for students? Right. So I think it's a pretty clear case. How do you make sure that students actually have the time to eat lunch? It's not as though we'll hear from parents that kids don't have time, that they're not sitting down to eat. They're rushing through it. There's a short period of time. It might be careful. chaos and it's not a meal, it's more just kind of fuel going in. Do you know what I mean? How do we ensure that there is a way of thinking about this that allows kids to sit down and actually eat the food that they are getting? I think we need to really think about the eating environment to have a calm space in the limited time that is available. Ideally, the lunch break would be extended. And in places and countries like France, it's so close to an hour where instead of actually having school lunch be separate from the school day,

it's actually part of the school day. So there's actually a lesson that happens around that lunch hour. There's a facilitator, kind of like a teacher who talks about the meal and will utilize the meal to teach part of a math lesson. There's little opportunities to really think about integrating school lunch into the school day as opposed to it being separate from the school day. Are you confident, I mean, again, what has been proposed in the budget lays out the foundation for a program like this across the country.

Are you confident that the funding will follow, as you said from all levels of government and a commitment to rethink the idea and the place of lunch in schools that will ensure that an idea like this really takes hold? I think once we get that permanent legislation passed and I understand government is working towards that quite quickly, that will lay that foundation and ensure that that annual budget does come through. but it will take increased investment from the provinces, from municipalities, from getting every industry of education on board. It's going to take more funding, but I think it really

provides a solid foundation from which to build. Sean, what do you think other provinces and territories could take from what you're doing on the island? Well, we know actually when Nova Scotia stood up their program, they did consult with us, both sort of at the government level and then at the NGO level just to use some of the lessons that we've learned to help model their program. So I think what we're doing is scalable. Obviously, if you're in an Ontario or in Alberta, you've got some size issues to address that we're a little bit more insulated from. But I think that like Amberley said, I think the bones of what we're doing is probably something that could be utilized elsewhere. So we definitely see it as a success story. And that's not to say there's not

room for improvement. We're always looking at areas where we can get better. But I think we're pretty proud of the program here. Brady, is there one thing just very briefly that you think other jurisdictions could take from what you're doing? Honestly, yeah, like the, to just kind of look at what's available and then optimize that for your area, I guess. You know, like I said, creating relationships with local farmers and local food suppliers is key for us with central distribution and having industry professionals in the kitchen. Yeah. I hope people steal these ideas. They're smart. It's good to speak with you all about them. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

Amberly Ritz, researcher, co-chair of the Canadian Association for Food Studies School Working Group, Brady-Wiler director of the Nanaudok-Mitsu-in school lunch program in Alberta. and Sean McNeil, Director of Strategy Policy and Seniors for the Department of Social Development and Seniors on PEI. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca slash podcasts.