The Current - How to remake arts degrees for today's job market

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Arts and humanities programs are being cut across Canadian universities and post-secondary institutions, due to low enrollment and financial pressures. Critics have long dismissed these courses as impractical with few job prospects, but some academics argue the programs still have merit and could be redesigned to help students thrive in a world in flux. 

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This is a CBC podcast. Hello, it's Matt here. Thanks for listening to The Current, wherever you're getting this podcast. Before we get to today's show, wonder if I might ask a favor of you if you could hit the follow button on whatever app you're using There is a lot of news that's out there these days We're trying to help you make sense of it all and give you a bit of a break from some of that news, too So if you already follow the program, thank you

And if you have done that maybe you could leave us a rating or review as well The whole point of this is to let more listeners find our show and perhaps find some of that information That's so important in these really tricky times. So thanks for all of that. Appreciate it and on to today's show I see the value of liberal arts and humanities education kind of like a drawing So other disciplines provide the lines and the arts and humanities provides the texture or the color and the shading I've been told that so many times. just like, why would you study that? You're never going to get anything from that. I've been working in tech for two years now, doing really well,

and I think this is where I'm going to stay. So we get that question, what are you going to do with your degree? And really the answer is anything we want. That's an ad from Universities Canada talking up the benefits of an arts degree. It is perhaps a harder sell these days. Just last week, one of the largest schools in this country, York University in Toronto, said it was freezing admissions to 18 programs

pointing to low enrollment and financial pressures. Almost all of the programs are in the arts, programs like gender and women's studies, German studies, religious studies. In recent years, other universities have seen cuts and rollbacks to social sciences and humanities, and all of this raises a deeper question. What is the value of an arts degree in 2025?

For years, critics have dismissed the arts as impractical, training students for jobs that don't exist. But some academics argue the real problem is not arts programs themselves, but how these programs are designed. And they say we need to reimagine how these disciplines can be better used to prepare students for a world in flux. Loleen Berdahl and Lisa Young are authors of the book For the Public Good, which calls for an overhaul of Canada's arts graduate programs.

Loleen Berdahl is a professor of political studies at the University of Saskatchewan. Lisa Young is a professor of political science at the University of Calgary. They both join us now. Good morning to you both. Morning. Good morning. Lisa, York University said that it was low enrollment and financial pressures that led it to freeze these programs.

But what does it tell you that the programs that were frozen for the most part are in the arts? Yeah, well, we're seeing this across the country, playing out in a variety of ways. Students at the undergraduate level in some ways are voting with their feet and aren't enrolling in some of these programs. And this doesn't mean that they're not interested in the subject matter. I think what we see in a lot of places is that, you know, first and second year courses in, you know, some of these disciplines in languages fill up pretty quickly, but students

don't necessarily see where a degree in these will take them. And because of the costs of post-secondary education, the pressures on students to think about what they're going to do when they're done university. They're often looking at their degree and asking that question of where would this take me? Loleen, your book argues in part that the way arts programs are designed now is not preparing students for employment.

But unlike some of the critics that are out there, as I said earlier, you say that what's being taught in those programs is more necessary than ever before. So make the pitch, and you don't have to make it to me because I have an English degree, but what is the value of an arts degree in 2025? Well, we're in a really interesting situation right now in the world where we need a lot of attention

to questions of ethics and communication and critical thinking, all of these things. And so we're in a world where everything is being presented to us very much as black and white, these social sciences and humanities, the arts really teach us to see the shades of grade and to approach things with a lot of nuance. And so there's a real value in these, in these programs and in what they're teaching. In the piece that you wrote, uh, that was exited in, in, in the conversation,

I believe one of the things that you said that was exited in the conversation, I believe, one of the things that you said was, while students continue to seek and enjoy advanced studies of social sciences and humanities, the question of what can you do with that resonates far too much. Is that a fair question, do you think, Loleen? I think so, in that there's not the clear pathway that we see with a lot of other programs. And what often happens is that students do land and they land well, but that transition period can be a bit of a challenge for them.

They're learning a lot of different skills, a lot of different talents that are really relevant to the workplace, but they're not necessarily taught how to translate these and how to articulate them in ways that are really evident to employers. And so that transition piece to get from that English degree to that first job where they can show what they're doing can sometimes be a little less clear than some other disciplines. It's also important because as you point out, many graduate students receive government funding in the form of scholarships and teaching or research assistant positions. And so there's a question as to whether public investment and it's reasonable to ask as you say, whether this is a good use of funds when

many students seem to have few job prospects. No, absolutely. And the other thing as well about graduate programs is these are research degrees usually. I mean, there's sort of a mix of professional graduate programming and research-based more thesis graduate programming. And when students are doing their research, they are learning very applied skills and that inability to, or not inability, but the challenges of making that translation

can just slow students down. And there's ways to think about programming that supports students more and makes that connection a bit more apparent to where they're going to land. Lisa, pick up on that. What are arts programs in this country doing wrong right now, do you think? Well, our focus is on graduate programs.

So I'm gonna talk about that. And I think, part of our dilemma here So our focus is on graduate programs, so I'm going to talk about that. And I think, you know, the PhD, part of our dilemma here is that our master's programs are designed in many ways to take students into a PhD program. PhD programs are actually in many instances set up as vocational degrees. They're training people to be university professors, which is great, except that the number of graduates who come out is much greater than the number of positions

for university professors. And so we've got these remarkably talented young people who have exceptional research skills, who find themselves at the end of the degree, really struggling to find a way to take their competencies and contribute to, you know, the title of the book, the public good. And so we think that graduate programs,

as they think about curriculum, as they think about what they're doing, need to think about that question of how they can equip students, you know, starting on day one to think about not just becoming mini-me's, people, you know, who might work in the academy, but taking their competencies and applying them in other venues. I want to ask you about that public good, but if you go back to undergrad programs, I mean some of the programs that were cut at York

were very specific, things like Hellenic studies, classics and classical studies. If there is a lower enrollment there and the universities are facing financial pressure and the pie is only so big, for example, do you think that schools should reconsider what sort of arts programs they're offering? Well, you know, there's lots of complexity to the decisions that are being made around this and I don't want to speak to the specifics of decisions that are made at York or

anywhere else. But you understand the broader thrust of it. I understand the basic, exactly. So I'm just, you know, I'm sort of hesitating here a little bit in the sense that, you know, we don't necessarily want to comment on the specifics of the decision around York. But certainly I do think that the wake-up call for all of us in the humanities and social sciences is that we need to find a way to articulate how the things that we study will equip students to go on and do the things that they want to do. And we certainly know that there are students, you know, who have a passion for studying, you know, Greek and Roman studies, for example, but they feel under pressure

to be able to say, this will set me up in the future to do something that's going to let me make a living, right? And we, I think in many disciplines, but particularly in some of the humanities and social sciences, we have to think a little more creatively about the ways that we help students imagine those sorts of possibilities, that we think a lot about the kinds of skills that they're acquiring. And, you know, here I'll point out that Lowleen writes a monthly column for University Affairs about how to integrate skills into undergraduate education. And I think, you know, she's got some of the answers on this front. What does that look like, Lowleen? And then part of that speaks to that idea of the public good and

what it is that those who are going through those programs can contribute in many ways to the public good. What does that look like? Well, for me, I feel that there's a real opportunity for instructors to be thinking about what students can do with what they're learning. And it seems like a very, very small things, but it's really the connecting of the dots and for programs to think about how these, how what students are learning in programs

can be used in society, used in the student's life as a future leader, as a future employee, as a future citizen, all of these things. Can you give me a practical example of that? Well, if we think about what someone's perhaps learning in a program, I'm going to pick political science since that's my own discipline, we teach them a lot about political party systems and about intergovernmental relations and international relations, all of these things. And so there's a lot of content knowledge.

Well how do we build that into making sure that we have critical thinking that students can then be able to comment on how government is working, how they're able to comment on what's happening with the international system right now. Quite often they're getting that, but they're not necessarily getting that in an explicit manner. And so having them be able to connect those dots, having students be able to articulate that, to say, okay, well, how does this spin out into what we're going to expect in the public sector?

How does this spin out into what we're going to expect in terms of what's going to happen with international relations or with government relations, these sorts of things, and make those connections. And then you can imagine, well, how might that be relevant to a corporation that has to deal with government relations, that has to anticipate what they're going to be expecting to happen with the economy, all of these sorts of things. So that just quite often the things are being done, but they're not being done in a way

that's explicit for students to be able to grab onto and articulate these, the things they can do. And so it goes back to my point earlier, you know, the students are able to get great jobs, but that transition piece can be very challenging for them. And right now we know students can be very, you know, they're very practical and they're like, well, what can I do with this degree? And so they might love taking all of these classes as their electives, but they're going to choose something that's got a more clear career pathway for them because they're worried about that future career.

Hey, I'm Tom Power. I'm the host of the podcast, Q with Tom Power. I wanna tell you a little bit about the show where we have real conversations with artists. And I say artists because, yeah, some of these people are celebrities, but I wouldn't call this a celebrity podcast. It's supposedly a space where artists can sit down and share their story.

Like Tom Green, when he told me about surviving testicular cancer. Or Lucy Liu, who told me about getting discovered on the subway. So if you want to hear your favorite artists as they actually are, check out our podcast, Cue with Tom Power, wherever you get your podcasts. Lisa, does that change how we think about what a university education is for? That there has to be some sort of practical element, you are, your use of the phrase of public good,

I think is really interesting, that there has to be something, and that's for broader society, but also for those students so that they feel equipped when they step out of the institution that they're ready. Yeah, and I think that this has changed profoundly over the past couple of decades. There was a time when the advice that people would give to young students was, oh, do what you're passionate about, it'll all work out.

Now we're in a rather different situation. And certainly I'm of an age where I can think about my undergraduate tuition, which was $800 a year. And of course, undergraduate tuition now is 10 times that. And so students understandably are thinking not just about their opportunities to explore interesting ideas, but also their thinking, whether they articulate it this way or not, a little bit about return on investment. And it's an investment of time, it's an investment of money and I think because of the state of the economy, uncertainty, you know, a changing landscape in all sorts of ways, students really are

concerned about that question of where is this going to take me? We're out of time, but I just want to ask you both very briefly. This is the time of the year when, when graduating high school students are choosing what they'll study. What would you say, Lisa, to a student who's considering an arts degree? I would say it's absolutely a good choice. It will give you a breadth of knowledge.

It will give you the kinds of skills that you need in the 21st century economy. It will let you communicate with people in writing, orally, it will make you a critical thinker, it will make you a good citizen. But as you're doing that degree, you do need to be thinking explicitly about the things that you're learning and how you can translate them to different kinds of venues. Lolene, last word to you briefly. What would you say to those students who are thinking now about their future

and they're trying to figure out what that future might look like? I think a lot of students leave grade 12 and they go into university or they go into university after a break and they can have rather a fixed mindset. I'm a pre-med, I'm pre-law, I'm whatever. I'd say just be open and be exploratory. And I would encourage people, if they're not doing an arts degree, to consider having arts electives

as part of their program. There's so much rich learning in the social sciences and humanities. And I think that that's something that can be a great addition to any program. This is really interesting. Thank you both for being here. Thank you.

Thanks for having us. Loleen Berdahl is a professor of political studies at the University of Saskatchewan. Lisa Young is a professor of political science at the University of Calgary, and they are authors of the book For the Public Good, Reimagining Arts Graduate Programs in Canadian Universities. What is the value of an arts degree in 2025? Do you think about it differently now? Can you, she said it's not a black and white,

Lisa said it's not a black and white kind of thing in some ways, but that idea of being open and going into school just to be curious, does that float now in the environment that we're in? You can email us, thecurrentatcbc.ca. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.