The Current - How will life in Canada-U.S. border towns change under Trump?

Episode Date: December 11, 2024

Donald Trump wants Canada to curb the flow of drugs and migrants southbound across the countries’ shared border. For people living in border communities, what will that look like? We hear from folks whose work and lives straddle the dividing line about the uncertainty Trump’s crackdown brings.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. Governor Justin Trudeau of the great state of Canada. U.S. President-elect Donald Trump gave the Prime Minister a new title in a social media post yesterday. A joke, perhaps, but it speaks to the evolving relationship between Canada and the United States and an evolving understanding of the border. I spoke with Justin Trudeau. In fact, he flew to Mar-a-Lago within about 15 seconds after the call. And I said, you have to close up your borders because they're coming in the northern border too a lot. Not like the southern border, but they're coming in the

Canadian border a lot. And drugs are pouring in, almost as importantly, drugs are pouring in, maybe more importantly. Securing the border, that is what Donald Trump wants. Curb the flow of drugs and migrants or else he'll slap a 25% tariff on all Canadian goods. The federal government is promising to make changes. Here's the Deputy Prime Minister, Christy Freeland. We absolutely are working very, very hard to ensure our border is secure. It's an issue, first of all, for Canadians. And we think that today we really need to be sure that Canadians have confidence, that Canadians control our own border. Of course, it means we need to have the appropriate resources to do that, and we will.

According to sources who spoke with Radio Canada, those appropriate resources could be to the tune of a billion dollars, all to secure the border. For people living in border communities across this country, a second Trump presidency comes with a great deal of uncertainty. Denis Bouchard lives in Hemingford, Quebec, on the border with New York at Roxham Road. He works with Bridges Not Borders to support migrants crossing the border. Dave Carlson is the Reeve for the municipality of Emerson Franklin in Manitoba, on the border with Minnesota and North Dakota. He's also a volunteer firefighter in his community. And Jody Stone is mayor of Stansted, Quebec, on the border with Vermont. Good morning, everyone.

Good morning. Good morning. Morning. Dave, let's start with you. Tell me a bit about the relationship that your community has with the border and how important Emerson's port of entry is. Oh, it's extremely important. I mean, we've like, yeah, we're right on the border. We have friends and neighbors across the lines. A lot of people that are, there's integrated families. There's a lot of shopping, different things like that. Our municipality actually has

mutual aid agreements for emergency services for two northern counties. So we do assist each other when there's wildland fires or any other kinds of emergencies. So we have a pretty warm and cordial relationship. You're part of those emergency services. As I mentioned, you're a volunteer firefighter. So you would see the migrant crisis that has alerted the attention of Donald Trump firsthand in Manitoba. What's that been like? What have you seen? Well, it's a little bit disturbing because what happens is when you have folks crossing, quite often it's in bad weather or it's at night.

This is a little different from the last crisis because of the 14 days it takes for you to be in the country to claim asylum. So there's a little bit more desperation. They're evading and don't want to be intercepted. So it makes it probably for a little bit more of a dangerous situation, especially, I mean, not only for the migrants, but for our emergency services that have to potentially do search and rescues, et cetera. So just kind of dangerous all around. And we're really hoping that the tsunami isn't coming like we seem to think it is.

I'll talk about that tsunami in a moment. But I mean, there's that story from 2022 of the family from India that froze to death in a field near Emerson, crossing into the United States. When you find people who are trying to cross the border, what sort of condition are they in? Well, they're usually, I mean, sometimes they cross and it's fine. They report, like they used to report in, it used to be fine. They were dropped off somewhere close by. It was okay. They used to report in.

It used to be fine. They were dropped off somewhere close by. It was okay. But then when there's human smuggling involved or any kind of trafficking or they're just crossing on their own without understanding the terrain or where they're going, they're in a desperate situation. Last year, let's see, last winter, there were some fellows that were found that were almost frozen to death. And so those are really bad situations.

And when that family was crossing into the United States and perished, that was tragic. And it was very disturbing. And it just shows the level of desperation that we can see. And people get themselves into really bad situations. It's difficult terrain. Like it seemed, oh, okay, it's just a prairie, but it's really not. I mean, there's river and creek forests

and things like that. And then if you're in, the wind's blowing and it's winter time, you can have whiteout conditions and get lost pretty quick and disorientated. So you put yourself really in harm's way. So just the last point on this, we as Canadians will often take pride in this idea of the world's longest undefended border with the United States. The federal government, as we said, is promising more funding for

helicopters and drones and sensors along the border. Do you think the nature of that border and how we think of that border needs to change based on what you've seen? Yeah, it's a different world now. I mean, guys used to just cross in their snowmobile and go for a drink or something, you know, like that was kind of the old days. That's the way it was, you know, people just kind of crossing here and there and everyone kind of knew each other more or less. It's unfortunate that times have changed and no one wants to see this evolution, but at least until this crisis is over, I think it's warranted. I mean, you have drug trafficking, you have human smuggling. Once

the criminal elements involved on your border, you're going to need these kinds of measures. So I think they will be welcome. It's just unfortunate that it's come to this. Jody Stone, your community of Stansted shares a border with Derby Line, Vermont. How intertwined is your town with the town on the other side of that border? Well, I'm a little bit with Dave. Families on both sides. We have a street that borders. One side of the street is Canada.

The other side is the U.S. We share water, sewer. We also, a fire department crosses over and gives a hand on either side. So we're very, very attached to our American neighbors. I mean, there was that story during the pandemic of the library, right, that straddles the border. Yeah, yeah. The library has the entrance. The main entrance is on the American side. And

so there's a non-written rule that Canadians can cross or can enter as long as they stay on the sidewalk. They can enter inside the library. So how worried are people? I mean, and these are the people who go back and forth and back and forth across the border, maybe many times a day. How worried are people that it could become more difficult to cross if that border becomes more secured? I haven't heard a big worry because we've lived through 9-11. 9-11 was a very difficult time. We went from being pretty easygoing at the border to very strict.

And it's been relaxed since. The border has been much easier and much more cordial when we go through. So I can't see it being worse than after 9-11. What are you worried about in a second Trump presidency when it comes to the border? Well, I think it's fear, right? Trump is just saying a lot of stuff, trying to get his followers to think he's the second coming. I think, unfortunately, time will tell. time will tell.

Denis Bouchard, you live right on the border near Roxham Road, where as we know, thousands of migrants would cross into Canada. Just quickly remind us why that crossing was closed in 2023. Well, it was closed basically to give a show that politicians were doing something. We're in a very similar situation to what the three previous persons said. Basically, we share services with people across the border. But here we were with Roxham Road in our backyard, literally, and thousands of people were crossing.

What's going to change with the new agreement is that instead of people crossing at Roxham, they're just going to move somewhere else and they're going to be all over the border in people's backyards, in people's forests. Are you seeing that already? Oh yeah. Not yet in big numbers, but with what's happening on the other side of the border, we're afraid that it will increase. Because if, you know, supposedly 11 million people are going to start being chased around, then, of course, they're going to try to find some place that's safe. And that is going to be probably up at the northern border. Where are people crossing now?

They're crossing all over the place. In wooded areas as much as possible, I guess, to be discreet. We don't see many people crossing, but we see stuff that they leave behind. You'll find clothes that was dropped off or backpacks and other personal objects. And that's when you see how vulnerable these people are. They were a little bit too much of a burden on their shoulders or whatever. And they dropped it off in a forest and just decided to cross.

So we're also very worried with winter around the corner that it's going to be harder and harder on them. Have you seen the border change already? I was reading a story in the press this morning about a woman in your community who's lived there a long time. She was out for a hike. RCMP stopped her and asked her what she was doing and why she was out walking. She said there's a climate of mistrust now because of a change in the border. Have you seen the area around the border change already? Very much, yeah. The RCMP actually gave a flyer to some of our residents telling them that if they see a stranger walking down the road called them. And one of our members was intercepted by the RCMP.

She was just walking with two members of her family. There's also people from Mexico and Guatemala who work on our ration here, not too far. And of course, they are regularly intercepted and questioned by the RCMP. What do you make of that? questioned by the RCMP. What do you make of that? Well, it's not really the kind of community that we want. We were used to a community that was very open, and now we're suddenly constantly stopped while we're walking peacefully.

How fair do you think, let me just ask you this before I go back to Dave, but how fair do you think Donald Trump's concern is about north to south crossings? American officials say they intercepted something like 21,000 migrants who are crossing illegally from Canada into the United States in the first 10 months of this year. Do you think Trump is right to be concerned about that? Trump is right to be concerned about that. We don't really know. We've been taking care or helping or informing people, basically coming up into Canada. We don't know how many exactly are going the other way. We just see what's left behind by these people. But it's not our problem to see about what's going into the States. We're concerned about what's coming into Canada. And the smugglers that might be helping people come into Canada.

That's the main, main thing that we're worried about. Our members have met hundreds of people who have crossed coming into Canada. These people are looking for safety, not confrontation. We're not all afraid of these people. We're not afraid of them. We're afraid for them with the conditions that are now along the border. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs.

We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Dave, you used the word tsunami earlier. Why did you use that word to talk about what you were anticipating or concerned about in future? Well, in 2017, there was an awful lot of people crossing.

And again, there's going to be some desperation. The deportation plans that are going on is very strong. And the United States feels they have a problem. They had an election and that's what they voted for. So it looks like there's going to be the will to do deportations. I guess what, so we anticipate numbers for sure. And I think it's just common sense it's going to happen. We've already seen a little bit of it. Your sense is if Donald Trump moves on that plan to deport upwards of 11 million undocumented people,

some of those people will try to figure out how to get into Canada. Well, I think so for sure. Typically, we've been more welcoming. So I mean, that may be the, that may be what happens. I think for us, the little bit, the worry is, is that the first phase is supposed to take in, you know, people with criminal records and gang affiliations, things like that. So if they're going to be the ones coming into crossing, you know, in the area of our community, I mean, that's definitely disconcerting. And you worry for public safety,

you worry for the safety of our emergency services and RCMP. You know, it's an unknown, and we're not sure how a migrant may react that is in that situation. And that is, you know, potentially a part of a criminal element. So, so what should we do about as a nation?

What should we do about that? Well, I think we just have to, I think we have to be really strong on this. I, I, what does that mean? Be really strong on that?

Well, I think the messaging has to be that, uh, you can't, you can't you can't just come here and cross the border i mean it's besides being dangerous to to a migrant themselves crossing uh you know you you can potentially die um it's just we don't have the resources to to absorb this this what could potentially be tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands. We already have a housing crisis. We have a medical, our medical system's overburdened.

Like the other night when we had a call, there were six crossers and there's three ambulances on site. And that's pretty much the entirety of the ambulances in our area, as well as having our medical first responders there and our CMP. So those resources are all in one spot for one issue. Well, what happens to the rest of the community if there's something happening? So it's things like that. I just know that I don't believe we can absorb such a number of people.

Again, you want to be compassionate and do what's right, but I think we also have to make sure that whoever's crossing is fully vetted, and I think they need to be returned to where they're coming from. Denis, do you worry about that as well? I want to go to Jody in a moment, but do you worry about that, Denis? We've spoken with people, and this was at the height of the Roxham Road issue, people who were working in Montreal, for example, with folks who are seeking asylum, and their services were overwhelmed because of the number of people who are coming across. Do

you worry that that could happen again if that deportation plan in the United States goes forward? Yes, but I think the way to address the problem is we have an immediate problem, yes, of course, and we have to do something about it. But the problem will not go away by pouring a billion dollars or two or three into military operations along the border. What we have to do, as the president of Mexico said, Claudia Scheinbaum said to Trump in her phone call, it's not by closing borders, but by bridging between governments and between people that we will help things. When you have embargoes and sanctions and whatever that hurt southern countries and impact on their citizens, it just fuels that kind of mass migration, and it will not stop. We can try to stop it here by doing things like drones and whatever. stop it here by doing things like, you know, drones and whatever. That's like if you have a bathtub that's overflowing,

you're throwing, you know, towels on the floor to sponge the water up. But that won't help if you don't close the tap. What we have to do is do something to help people in their own country to make it a safe and, you know, pleasant place to live and not a place where you're fearful and you're extremely poor and so on. And then on the long term, yes, unfortunately, it won't stop the problem that we have now. But on the long term, it's going to do something. And it's going to cost much less than militarizing our border. Jody Stone, you're right there. And so one of the things we found when we went down to the southern border with the United States and Mexico is the closer you get to the border, the more

complicated and nuanced this issue is. People have all sorts of opinions from a distance, but you're right there. How do you see this and the possibility that whatever happens in the United States will impact your own community and how you relate with that border? I'm really not sure with your question. What are you most worried about? Are you worried about that? I mean, Dave talked about a tsunami. Are you worried about that impacting your own community?

Well, everything's a worry, right? The uncertainty of a president that is willing to completely change the dynamics between our two countries is scary. I think everybody, the embargo is something that's being talked about a lot by everybody in the community. And I'm sure it's being talked about in our community on the other side. So yeah, it's the uncertainty, I believe, that's scaring people. And the fact that President Trump, President-elect, is willing to say just about anything to please his followers is scary as well. The border is a physical line, but it's also something we were saying that kind of lives

in people's minds as well in terms of how we think about our relationship with the United States. If that were to change, if the border were to be strengthened, how do you think your relationship, Jody, with the border were to be strengthened, how do you think your relationship, Jody, with the border would be different? It depends because it's almost impossible to make it. You can't build a wall, for instance. You can't do it. It's just the communities are so intertwined that it's impossible.

It's just we definitely need to keep the communications between our two countries open. You know, policies at the federal level for maybe aerial tourism might need to be adjusted or, you know, because our borders, there's no other way into Canada than the air. So those maybe that's the area we need to look into changing some of our policies. Dave, what about for you? I mean, what would change in terms of how you think about the border if it were to be strengthened? Well, I guess we'd see drones around potentially and more resources patrolling, things like that. I mean, it's pretty open here, and it always has been. I mean, it is going to be sad once you see things get so much more tight between us, because you just remember the way things were.

were but um if there is if there's drugs and and guns and different things crossing the border i i see that uh if we're patrolling say cbsa which they've discussed is potentially patrolling between the ports i think it's a good idea um just because they're there's things that like who wants anyone smuggling who wants anyone you know potentially coming into your remote farmyard and, you know, potentially they're a criminal. Like, I mean, hey, there's good people too, but you just never know. If you're willing to cross a border illegally, you just never know. So I think if we're doing our part on our side,

hopefully, you know, Trump will say, say okay you're doing what you need to be doing and and the tariffs won't happen and things like that but i mean i i'm guessing this is to change our behaviors i i assume they have stats they're looking at that what happens from the north i know we've seen a few stats kind of surprised me i thought things were more coming this way but um i guess things go both ways. Do you think that change is inevitable, though? Yeah, the change is inevitable. I don't think there's any way around it. So I think we just have to kind of go with it

and try to take the positives we can out of it. If there's less drug trafficking and guns and human trafficking, then I think it's a better situation. Denis, what about just finally for you? I mean, again, the border is a thing, a physical thing, but it's also a symbol for many Canadians. And that symbol speaks to the relationship between these two countries. Do you think that symbol is going to be threatened by what we're talking about?

Very much so, yeah. It used to be, as the other people said, it used to be a fairly easy crossing and people would share services and so on. I'd like to say that there are, in fact, no reports of any assaults by migrants along the border, at least in this area here that I know of. I'm a bit worried to see politicians already sort of competing to show who's the toughest Trump. They're saying basically, if we make it tough enough for them to come here, they won't come. I would say instead,

if we make it easy enough for them to have a good, decent living in their own country, well, then they won't come and they'll live safely and decently. There are already helicopters flying over regularly. There are, of course, RCMP cars along the border constantly. If that's the kind of border we're going to get, it's not going to be pleasant at all to live along the border. It sounds like it's already happening. Yeah, it's starting very much so, yeah.

It's great to speak with all three of you about this. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks, Matt. to speak with all three of you about this. Thank you very much. Thank you. Denis Bouchard lives in Hemingford, Quebec. It's on the border with New York, right at Roxham Road. He works with Bridges Not Borders to support migrants

who are crossing that border. Dave Carlson is the Reeve for the municipality of Emerson, Franklin in Manitoba on the border with Minnesota and North Dakota. Also a volunteer firefighter in his community. And Jody Stone is the mayor of Stansted, Quebec on the border with Vermont if you live in a border community in Canada we would love to hear from you how have you seen that border change over time all three of our guests talked about what the

border used to be like in terms of ease of crossing and how that has evolved over time but also what changes to the Canada U.S. you like to see, and what would those changes, if it's strengthened, what would they actually mean to you in terms of your ease of passage back and forth from Canada into the United States? Email us and let us know what it's like to live on the border and perhaps what you see that other people don't see. You can email us at thecurrentatcbc.ca. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.