The Current - Inside the rebuilt Notre-Dame Cathedral

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

Notre-Dame reopens this weekend — just five years after fire blazed through the iconic Paris cathedral. A journalist gives us a look inside the rebuilt “people’s palace,” and a Montreal blacksmith who forged the axes used in the reconstruction shares what it means to have left his mark on the 12th-century monument.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. It was an April evening in 2019 when people in Paris started to see smoke rising from the Cathedral of Notre Dame. Over the next several hours, fire would burn through most of the cathedral's ribbed roof devouring hundreds of oak beams. Crowds gathered on the banks of the Seine to watch as hundreds of firefighters fought to contain the fire and then watched as the iconic spire collapsed.

Even before the blaze was put out, French President Emmanuel Macron stood outside Notre-Dame and promised the cathedral would be rebuilt within five years. Well, this weekend, a little over five years later, Notre Dame is indeed set to reopen after a restoration effort that involved upwards of 2,000 workers and cost 700 million euros. Agnes Poirier is a broadcaster and journalist and the author of a book called Notre Dame, the Soul of France. She is in Paris. Agnes, good morning.

Good morning. You live right across the river from Notre Dame. When did you realize that the cathedral was on fire? I don't know if you remember, but President Macron was supposed to address the nation that evening at 8 p.m. So I was preparing in my kitchen a BBC program to comment on the measures he was going to announce after the yellow vest, the Gilles Jaune movement. And then it was about, what, 6.40 p.m. I turned my head towards the window and saw those huge plumes of smoke, a very striking color, they were yellow. And it could only come from opposite, that is to say, Notre Dame. So I just rushed on the quai below on the riverbank. And the sight was dramatic. And the firemen had not arrived yet.

So it was obviously going to be a dramatic night. You didn't need to know much about fire and how it spreads and medieval architecture to actually know that she was in grave danger. What was it like to stand there and watch the fire burn? It was very strange. And I remember the silence. And, you know, we're talking about the heart of Paris. It's usually pretty, pretty noisy, a lot of cars. The cars, the traffic had stopped, but by itself, not because the police was there.

The people had just stopped in their tracks, whether they were on their bicycle or walking, and we were just looking towards the roof of Notre Dame. And then, of course, you know, I remember the faces of people, and I could see people just forming silent prayers on their lips and a lot crying as well. And you could hear, I mean, you'd written about this, you could hear the fire burning through the wood, right? Oh, yes. That was an incredible, incredible sound, you know, the sound of history. Because we're talking about a wood that dates back to the year, even before the Crusades, you know, 12th century and 13th century, because the roof of Notre Dame is made of a thousand oak beams.

And you just could hear it crack. And that added to that, you know, feeling that we were bearing witness to something historical and potentially absolutely catastrophic. What did the firefighters tell you about how difficult it was that night to fight this fire? Well, I did meet with General Gallet, the three-star general, who was at the time commander-in-chief of the firemen brigade in Paris. You have to realize that in Paris, the fire brigade are made of soldiers. Their average age is quite young, 27, unlike other fire brigades,

you know, in London or in New York. And also they are trained, they are, you know, very agile, very strong and very lean, usually quite small, and they are used to fight the fire in hand-to-hand combat. But when I talked to General Gallet, he said when we arrived, we thought perhaps we had missed a call, perhaps we were responsible for not being here when we should have been here, that is to say much earlier.

When we arrived, it was already too late. So the only solution was audacity. What did that audacity look like? Audacity was when the fire started spreading in the North Belfry, which has eight massive bells held together by wooden structure dating back to the 13th century. It meant that they had, at some point, 20 minutes to stop the fire there. Otherwise, the North Belfry would collapse on the South Belfry, and the whole edifice

would collapse like a house of cards so we're talking so at that time general galley because they were immediately going to be 200 firemen uh you know dead if that happened and it was likely to happen so jan general galley had to ask permission from the french president. The French president understood immediately, gave his consent. And so they went up, you know, 150 firemen just to support a vanguard of 50 firemen going up inside the North Belfry. And, well, they managed it. She's still standing. You've done this a couple of times. You referred to the cathedral as she, which is really interesting. I mean, this is, it's a Catholic church, but it's also, it's more than that.

I mean, as I said, you know, the title of your book is The Soul of France. What does Notre Dame mean to people, do you think? Well, it means different things. Of course, for Catholics and for believers, it is a church. It is a Catholic church. But first of all, she's been with us for, you know, more than 850 years. And she has played a role in French history. I mean, if you, you know, something quite symbolic, if you're driving and you, you know, quite symbolic. If you're driving and you set your sat-nav to, I'm driving to Paris,

well, Notre-Dame is kilometer zero of France. So it will take you there. But more importantly, you know, for instance, the way it was financed, you know, I really search her history and I was so interested to realize that unlike other Gothic cathedrals at the time, the aristocracy and the king paid quite little towards its construction. It is the bishop of Paris at the time, Maurice Souly, who was the son of farmers, who used all his revenues.

He could have, you know, kept it for himself, but he used all the revenues and of the farmlands around Paris, which were extremely fertile, into the construction of Notre Dame. But not only the bourgeois of Paris all paid into its construction. Only the bourgeois of Paris all paid into its construction. The prostitutes of Paris also paid for her construction, meaning that unlike other Gothic cathedrals, she's the people's palace. And of course, you know, going very quickly through time to the French Revolution, it was the only church that was not closed. It was transformed into a polling booth at some point,

also a university where laws were explained. She was always there. Her doors were always open. And, you know, for French revolutionaries, Notre Dame was on their side, which is an interesting thing to contemplate since they were atheists. One last point. After the Charlie Hebdo attack,

you know, Notre Dame chimed and rang for the cartoonists that were killed, although they were fiercely anti-clerical. So she belongs to everyone and she accepts everyone. Which is why, presumably, Emmanuel Macron, I mean, as the smoke is still rising from the ashes of Notre Dame, says that this cathedral is going to be rebuilt within five years. Five years is a very short timeline, and to a lot of people that seemed like a ludicrous idea that you could rebuild this within five years. What did you make of that? Well, we all thought at the time that it was impossible. We thought, you know, he's like everyone else upset and therefore, you know, he has a lot of

ambition, a lot of determination, a lot of willpower. And so he sort of willed the whole nation to seize the moment and to raise to the occasion and to do things well and quickly because we needed this. Little did we know that he was right and this was possible. He even added the night of the fire that she would be rebuilt even more beautiful than before, which for us was ludicrous because she couldn't possibly be more beautiful. But in fact, she's more beautiful than before. You only have, I was privileged to enter Notre Dame

for a documentary I did for the BBC. And she has, you know, I mean, she hasn't been over-restored at all. She's now, she feels authentic, original, the way she was, and the color of the pillars, of the vaults, of the walls are the color of the 12th century. I mean, it is extraordinary. But this is important in part because there was discussion right in the immediate wake of the fire that if it were to be rebuilt, would it be rebuilt the same as it was? Could this be a more modern structure? Are there things in the modern era that could be applied and techniques

that could be applied to Notre Dame 2.0, if I can put it that way? Why do you think it was decided ultimately that this would not be something more modern, that this would be taking you back to what Notre Dame originally meant and originally was? Well, I mean, first of all, you know, the few days after the fire, it was such a trauma that there was a need for this kind of formidable, fantastical, you know, ideas. We're going to have, I mean, if you remember the schemes at the time,

you know, there was a forest with a real forest in place of a roof with wild animals, a water rain swimming pool in the shape of a cross, a titanium spire, et cetera, et cetera. And I think we needed this just to get, you know, to get over our trauma. And then wisdom prevailed. And actually, you know, I was among those who thought, why not a 21st century addition to Notre Dame? But then I went to really interview dozens and dozens of people, art historians,

architects, etc. And not one said, you know, we should add our 21st century genius to this. She needs to be rebuilt, restored identically. But Notre Dame is not exactly as it was when it was built in the 12th and 13th century in any case. You know, as Victor Hugo said, there are a few centuries in her. So she's a product of centuries, really. You have been, as you mentioned, inside this cathedral a couple of times since the fire. Having stood on the side and watched this space burn, what was it like to be inside? It was incredible. And there were still scaffoldings when I was inside a couple of months ago.

But the color, the color of those pillars, it's a sort of beige or rather sand color. And, you know, the clarity of the space, you know, I often said I was sucked into Gothic symphony because it's exactly the way the, you know, the Gothic builders imagined it, you know, it's the triumph of logic, of proportions. And also, there's nothing lavish about Notre Dame, you know, she's quite austere, but it's the most beautiful austerity I've ever seen. So, you know, people will decide what they think, but I think the restorers, that army of craftspeople did an incredible job. And part of this is about using those same techniques that were employed to build this space in the first place.

Oh yes, completely. I mean, that's why it was difficult to find the artisans. I mean, France still has such artisans, but they were also held by artisans from all over the world. So the Doris will be flung open this weekend. What's going to happen? So on the 7th of December, on Saturday, President Macron will address the nation in a short speech outside Notre Dame

because he's the president of the Secular Republic. So he is where he should be. And then the Archbishop of Paris will walk towards the main gate, will knock on the door with his processional cross, the doors will be flung open, and immediately the choir of Notre Dame, 90 singers, will start singing. Then the altar hasn't been blessed yet, so this will happen the day after, during the first Mass on the Sunday. On Saturday evening, however, the Archbishop will be in a conversation with the Grand Organ to, as they call it, reawaken the organ. We awaken the organ.

And then there will be a small ceremony, a reopening ceremony, and attending will be dozens of heads of state and, of course, cardinals and bishops. And music throughout a season as well. I mean, it's a glorious space that sounds incredible, and there will be music that will be filling that space over the course of a season. Oh, yes, completely. I mean, you know, Notre Dame has an orchestra and a choir, which dates back to its beginning. And it is a school as well,

and they are responsible for 1,200 religious services a year, and of course, weekly concerts in the cathedral. Just before I let you go, I mean, you talked about this as in many ways, the people's cathedral. It's a public space. It's the soul of France. The Archbishop of Paris has said that Notre Dame has managed to unite France, a place that he says is a divided country and a fractured society. Do you think that's true, that this cathedral, especially now in pretty divisive times, has been able to bring people together in that real way? You know, she does.

She does bring people together. But, I mean, she does offer the best of France, and at a time when parliamentarians offer the worst of France. So I think a lot of people would want to visit just to have a sort of bubble where they can feel proud. We'll see how long that lasts. Exactly. I can't wait to go and see Notre Dame as it has been rebuilt. Agnes, thank you very much for this. You're welcome. Agnes Poirier is a broadcaster and journalist and the author of a book called Notre Dame, the Soul of France.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. As we mentioned, there are more than a thousand craftspeople and artisans who worked to painstakingly restore and recreate the original structure of Notre Dame. One of them was from Montreal, a blacksmith named Mathieu Collette. He's the co-founder of the Forge de Montréal. It's a nonprofit dedicated to preserving traditional blacksmith skills. He's in our Montreal studio. Mathieu, good morning.

Good morning, Matt. What was it like to be involved in working on Notre Dame? How did this happen? I've been invited by a friend, Martin Claudel, Thay-André Claudel. He's a master blacksmith of hedge toolings like hatch for carpenting and he went to Quebec make some workshop with me and when he was young. It seems that I influenced a group of young blacksmith in France to became blacksmith because of Les Forges Montréal since 25 years of our work.

So it was for them important that I participate to that project that they had to make 60 axes for the carpenter in four months. So you trained him and then he gets back in touch with you and says, Master, I need your assistance here in helping to rebuild this cathedral. I'm a humble man, and I would not say that I am his master, but I would confirm that I influence his path to became a blacksmith. I would like to go to the next question, please.

I mean, as a humble man, one of the things that you've also said, though, is that you are some of the only ones left who are doing this work, right? Well, the thing is, my master, André Maltaverne, best worker of France in the 90s, was a third generation. And his grandfather was was traditional smithing before the industrialization and the new material. So I'm like the fourth generation and then in the 90s in France, I've been four years there in apprenticing. So this culture and that knowledge heritage is in me. So it's an honor for me to go back in France and be involved in that project first. It seems that there's kind of a gap

in between the 90s and the beginning of the 2000s where those masters have disappeared and I'm one of them who have been teaching and pass on 3,000 years of knowledge right in my hands and I came back in Quebec with. What is it that you were making for Notre-Dame? What specifically were you helping them with? Right.

So just to make a – when Agnès Poirier said that it's not a reconstitution, there's a difference in between make the things the same way and do the right things. So what we put as an architecture element is the same for the next generation. And what I meant for that is like any element on any cultural heritage building in the world have a writing in it. And the writing is the mark of the tools of the craftsmanship. So whatever, if it's stones, if it's wood or whatever else, there's always mark in it. And so the importance is the shaving marks,

the last shaving mark that we put to put the same material, the same techniques with the same tools of the times. So next generation, when they're going to have to redo it again, they could read that language again. So if we change an element in the cultural heritage building with something that's been made differently with CNC machine or computer or whatever, we're losing the writing of history and cultural heritage. And that's what I was involved in.

And so you were creating the axes that would be involved in that final stage. I participate to all the process to realize 60 axes in four months in that short time frame. And that's also why I've been involved to go help that young group of blacksmiths that they are starting. They have that project. They want to do good, and they don't have the experience. And I'm like a 30-years-old blacksmith experience. And I create a time frame and make things secure there and also joyful. So I helped to set the shop. I helped to improve the procedure.

And when I left, they was on time and they delivered on time, which it was not the case when I arrived. Can you describe the axes? What do they look like? Yeah, actually, it's three main techniques, which is when you cut the tree, you need to timber frame them in a square rectangle and then make the assembly. So three main tools is one is for chopping and notching, and then every foot you make a notch and you remove that pieces. So it's very rough finish.

So with the shaver, you clean the side to have a smooth finish, to put it square and rectangle. So those three tools, which is the chopping, the scoring, and the finishing, was the three axes, three model of axes that we have to do for the carpenter of Notre Dame de Paris. You are somebody who has what is known as intangible knowledge in your hands. of axes that we have to do for the carpenter of Notre-Dame de Paris. You are somebody who has what is known as intangible knowledge in your hands. You are able to pass these techniques.

I mean, the idea of a blacksmith to some people is something from a different era, but you have preserved that and you are passing that along to the next generation, these traditions and that knowledge. What does that mean to you to be able to do that? Well, it's in my value. The value of the traditional smith is to be efficient for his community. The quality of the community was related to the quality of the smith because the smith was making the tools for all what's provided us, food, houses, clothes, and unfortunately, defense.

That knowledge is still, it's not folkloric, it's still a need today, first for our history, for cultural building, as Notre Dame shows it, but also for me it's at human scale, with the simple tools, you could make tools for your three needs, which is warmth, food, and love. you could make tools for your tree needs, which is warmth, food, and love. And that science should be taught at all children as mathematics, as language, as everything, as a general knowledge. Because everyone can make these tools. We are on iron planets.

The material is right there, and it's simple to make tools to master wood, stone, and dirt. You have a poetic way of describing this. This coming from the value of the traditional smith who needs to be good for his community. It's in me. As soon as you reach that knowledge, you cannot not do something to pass it on. It's become a responsibility, and I stick with it. What will you think about?

If you go to Notre Dame and you see the Finnish Cathedral, knowing that it is some of your knowledge that helped them get to that finish line, what will you think? For sure I will go because I'm still going in France. As I

said, I've lived there four years and I have a lot of friends over there. I'm a spiritual person. I will recueillir myself over there and pray for the traditional artisan. Mathieu, I'm really glad to talk to you. Thank you very much for telling us about your work and the passion that you have for that work. Thanks to have put the light on us. It's really important what you guys are doing. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Take care. You too. Bye-bye. Mathieu Collette is a blacksmith and the founder of the Forge de Montréal. He helped forge the axes that were used by carpenters who helped rebuild the Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris. The cathedral reopens to the public with a series of events this weekend.

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