The Current - International law now just ‘rule of jungle,’ says lawyer

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

International law has been replaced by the law of the jungle when it comes to Israel’s offensive in Gaza, says Palestinian human rights lawyer Raji Sourani. He wants the international community to hold Israel to account and ensure humanitarian aid reaches Palestinians.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. This morning, the International Criminal Court issued warrants for the arrest of Israel's Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, his former Defense Minister Yoav Galant, and Hamas official Mohamed Ibrahim al-Masri, also known as Mohamed Adif, accusing them of war crimes and crimes against humanity. The court says these crimes alleged include murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts. Israel is not a member of the ICC, but the court says that country's acceptance of the court's jurisdiction was not required.

This comes as UN agencies and partners warn that famine is imminent in Gaza. Israel continues to block much of the aid from entering, while the aid that has made it in across the border is now being attacked and stolen by gangs. What food and other supplies there are in Gaza is now priced far above what people can afford. What food and other supplies there are in Gaza is now priced far above what people can afford. And while the UN Security Council says the humanitarian situation is worsening, there's growing concern that this conflict has also eroded trust in international organizations and international law. Raji Surani is a Palestinian human rights lawyer and founder of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. We spoke with him earlier this morning, just as those arrest warrants were being announced. In October, the Biden administration gave Israel 30 days to meet a

minimum requirement of allowing something like 350 supply trucks to enter Gaza each day or risk having some U.S. military assistance cut off. Israel missed that deadline and has not met that requirement, but the United States has not cut off assistance. What is Israel's lack of action and what seems to some like not listening to Joe Biden? What does that tell you? That tells me that U.S. and Israel are partners of what's going on. U.S. gives ultimatum for entering food, but it doesn't give ultimatum for stopping genocide. And they are using veto at the Security Council. That's nonsense.

We are bombed, killed by American bombs. And U.S. doing and saying that for the last 13 months. And they can stop Israel promptly, immediately, unconditionally, because they are doing genocide, part of the legal responsibility of international community, including U.S., to stop this genocide. And I think whether Biden administration or Trump administration didn't act in the right legal way, right political way, right human way, they are partner in the genocide crime

and they are just covering up legally, politically. And now, I mean, they are just talking about entering food, allowing food to come in. Nobody talking about 17,000 child killed until this morning. Tens were killed, and they are not talking about 14,000 women.

They are not talking about the 85% of Gaza destruction or the displacement of two million people or the starvation, which is going on for the last 13 months. This is a big shame for U.S. and international community. But help me understand this, because, I mean, the Israeli military has said that it doesn't restrict the entry of civilian supplies into Gaza. It requires these permits that it considers for items that might be dual use. The stats that have come out from the Israeli military have said that supplies going in have actually gone down in the last couple of months. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations said that without an immediate surge in humanitarian aid, many residents of Gaza, in her words,

may not survive the winter. So given the words even from the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., how do you understand why it is that that aid isn't flowing in? Why isn't the United States following through with its threat that if the aid doesn't go in, it would reduce military aid? I want to understand that. What's the problem of Gazans with the U.S.? What's the problem of 17,000 children who has been killed with the U.S.? What's the problem with 14,000 women who has been killed with the U.S.?

I don't know. I mean, why this is happening? And I have no interpretation for that. this is happening, and I have no interpretation for that. There is the crime of the crimes, genocide, perpetrated by a criminal, belligerent occupation. Who demonstrates that? And he says that. And he's not shameful of that.

The president of the State of Israel, day one, He said there is no innocent civilian in Gaza. Everybody complicit with Hamas, and we will target everybody. The prime minister said Gaza should leave Gaza, out. Where to? Definitely not to paradise. And the minister of defense, he said, no water, no electricity, no food, no fuel. And this is lasting and broadcasted live on air at the real time. And the whole world see it. All international human rights organizations, including B'Tselem, Piketty, saying that.

The most important court on earth saying that. And they say there is plausible genocide and Israel should in three provisional measures allowing humanitarian aid and food to come in. And Israel is not doing that. They continue killing, destruction, starvation, abusing the entire community, and they are not caring for anybody, and they moved from Gaza to Lebanon. The aid that is going in, it's not making it to the people who need it the most. There's gangs that are attacking aid trucks that have entered Gaza. These are Palestinian gangs that are denying their fellow Palestinians the food that they need. How do you reckon with that? How do you understand that? The Israeli gangs, and I'm referring to international human rights organization reports, and I'm referring to UN agencies.

that these gangsters are part of this criminal occupation, instructed, guided, recruited, and implementing that under the protection of the Israeli criminal occupation. So just to be clear, you think that the gangs that are attacking... They are allowing very, very little. They are allowing very, very little food, very little, which does not consist 5% to 10% of the needed food. which does not consist of 5 to 10 percent of the needed food, and they are asking these gangs, I mean, to steal it. Just to be clear, just to be clear.

After a strong intervention by international community, they bombed it. After it arrived, they bombed it. They are criminals. You are talking about genocide, and now you are talking about Palestinian gangs stealing amid this. They are so dirty, they are so bloody, they are immoral. This is the most immoral army ever passed. They are doing genocide, starvation, displacement at the daylight, and the whole world seeing it. starvation, displacement at the daylight and the whole world seeing it and nobody intervening

to put an end for this criminal occupation and the crime of the crime, the genocide against the Parisians and the Indians. Shame on them. Just to be clear, you believe that the Palestinian gangs that attacked, the gangs that attacked the aid trucks, we saw this over

the weekend, that they, you believe that they were directed or at the very least supported by the Israeli army? Of course. That's not what I'm saying. That's what everybody involved in that, he knows about this. This is not, I mean, something in secret. And this is not a problem. I mean, nobody's talking about And this is not the problem. I mean, nobody's talking about tens of people died this morning,

including many, many of them children, most of them children. Who's talking about them? Cheap blood, cheap pain, cheap suffering? Now the problem to discuss whether these gangs belong to occupation or doesn't belong to occupation.

I mean, this is, I mean, the problem. The starvation of Gaza 13 months, not allowing food to the people, destroying hospitals, stopping UNRWA and illegalizing it, which is the most important body which distribute relief to people. Not important? The important, I mean, to discuss who is stealing this little food coming into Gaza? Is this the problem? The problem not the end of the occupation, not the end of genocide, not the end of oppression,

suppression, the criminality, I mean, by the occupation. It's only, I mean, to discuss, I mean, to whom these gangs belong. They are Palestinians. They should be Palestinian. And we are the victims and the criminals at the same time. But by ourselves, Israel has nothing to do with that. This is a big shame, and this is distortion of facts. This is derailing of the discussion.

There is a criminal belligerent occupation should stop and should end and the ICJ, International Court of Justice, in July 19 said this is illegal occupation and the genocide which is going on for the last 9-13 months should have an end and stop, stop and impose ceasefire immediately. What impact do you think the ICJ ruling made? The ICJ ruled, as you've said, that Israel has to take all measures to prevent genocidal acts in Gaza

and ordered Israel to ensure basic food supplies make it into the Strip. What impact do you think that ruling has had? When U.S. and Israel treat threat, the most important court, whether it's the ICC or the ICJ, and they say they are anti-Semite, they are applying the rule of jungle, we are not going to respect it, we are going to hold accountable the prosecutors and the judges, then you are in a real rule of jungle situation. So there is, I mean, clear-cut, simple, legal decisions binding to everybody. Should Israel and U.S. do it?

But they are, you know, the ones who are attacking the ICC and the ICJ. So this is not going to be implemented, unfortunately, and what we are having in simple words, rule of jungle. And if you compare that with Ukraine, how when Russia invaded and occupied Ukraine, Europe and U.S. said, oh, my God, I mean, invasion, occupation in the 21st century, how that can happen? And they say Ukrainians do have the right to resist the Russian occupation by all ways and means, including armed struggle. And they ask all the free people across Europe and U.S. to go and take the arm to resist the Russian occupation, and they resorted to ICC. And in one year they issued warrants against Putin and many other leaders, and they resorted to the ICJ and accused Russia.

I mean, there and the processes going on there, and they imposed on Russia seven waves of unprecedented sanctions to stop its invasion and occupation to Ukraine, more than that they promised to help and support Ukraine, because it's occupied with money, with arms, and providing it with legal and political power. And for Palestinians. So we have all that. And we have a prolonged military occupation. But it seems, I mean, Europe and U.S. act with us as if we are the slaves of the old Rome. In old Rome, there was two classes,

masters and slaves. For the masters, there was law, and for the slaves, there is no law. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs.

And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. You said that this is the law of the jungle in some ways that's playing out. And we mentioned the ICJ ruling. There's also the ICC ruling, the International Criminal Court, where the prosecutor applied for arrest warrants for three Hamas leaders, for the Israeli prime minister and for his then defense minister as well for war crimes.

The Hamas leaders are now believed to be dead. Have a listen to the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, in terms of how he responded to those warrants back in May. It's trying to put us in the dark as we defend ourselves against genocidal terrorists and regimes, Iran of course, that openly works to destroy the one and only Jewish state. Branding Israel's leaders and soldiers as war criminals will pour jet fuel on the fires of anti-Semitism, those fires that are already raging on the campuses of America and across capitals around the world. It will also be the first time that a democratic country fighting for its life according to the rules of war is itself accused of war crimes. He maintains, and Israel

maintains, that it's defending itself, that attacks come from Hezbollah, that Hamas continues to hold hostages. What do you say to that? I want to ask any wise person on earth, can occupation defend itself? I mean, this is a criminal, belligerent, prolonged occupation. The whole world knows that. Occupation, a crime of aggression. This is how it has been defined in Romestatu. This is what Russia said to Ukrainians. We are defending ourselves.

What do you think will happen when Donald Trump becomes the president in January? There are many people in Palestinian communities in the United States that voted for Donald Trump. They wanted to punish the Democrats. They felt that they perhaps would have a better shake under the Republicans. The Republicans will control essentially the entire U.S. government. Have a listen to what the Republican Senator John Thune, who's soon going to be the leader of the Senate, Listen to what the Republican Senator John Thune, who's soon going to be the leader of the Senate, had to say about those ICC warrants. Now you have the International Criminal Court of the ICC and its prosecutor pursuing warrants against Israeli officials. That is outrageous and it is unlawful.

The ICC rogue actions are a threat to our ally Israel and left unchecked, it could pose a threat to America in the future. So to our allies in Israel, and to the Jewish people around the world, my message to you is this. Reinforcements are on the way. What effect do you think Donald Trump and Republican leadership in the United States will have on the ICC case, and on what you have been talking about, which is the international rule of law. President Trump in 2017, he issued a presidential decree against the ICC, against the ICC, prosecutor, judges, and staff. And he said if any will harm U.S. or Israel, we will act and react. And we will deny them visas to the U.S.

We will deny them entry. We will freeze their assets, we will confiscate their properties, and we will try them if they come to the U.S. Now this was in 2017. And this continue, I mean, till now. I think President Biden wasn't in any difference because he de facto and de jure, I mean, supported Israel and protected Israel. And we are today are killed with American arms. If Americans stop giving, I mean, Israel the arms, Israel will be not even to bomb

us, to kill us with the most high-tech F-35 and 35, 36, and 38. Its policy will not change. It will continue the same. Maybe it's getting to be worse during Trump, as he agreed, I mean, at the time, to annex Jerusalem and annex the Golan Heights of Syria by Israel. Maybe he will allow, even this time, West Bank, I mean, to be part of Israel and have final say on that. Maybe he will pressure to implement what Netanyahu dreamed of, sending 2.4 million people of Gaza to Egypt.

We're learning right now that the ICC has issued arrest warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu, Yoav Galant, his former defense minister as well, that it believes there are reasonable grounds to believe that Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Galant committed war crimes. I know they committed. It's on my skin. I saw it. I witnessed it. I documented it. And to have that, that's good. But that's not enough. I want to see justice. I want to see end for this genocide. Just finally, do you believe that institutions like the UN, the ICC, and the IACJ have the capacity to bring justice, I suppose, for both Palestinians and for the Israelis who were killed and captured by Hamas? That's the goal of these

institutions. Do you believe in those institutions to bring justice? We have to believe in them. We have no other choice but to believe in them. This is the consensus of the international community. There is two states only who doesn't accept that. It's U.S. and Israel. Who doesn't accept that? It's U.S. and Israel.

And that's why we are having this human fight between two choices, rule of law and rule of junkie. warrants against Netanyahu and Gallant, it brings a new dawn, not only for Palestinians, but for the world in respecting rule of law and dignity of man. Raji Sarani, we will leave it there. I'm glad to talk to you. Thank you very much. My pleasure, sir. Raji Sarani is a lawyer and founder of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. He was in Cairo. We spoke earlier this morning. After the end of our conversation, we learned that the arrest warrants issued by the International Criminal Court also included one for Hamas official Mohammad Adif, who the Israeli military says was killed in July.