The Current - Irwin Cotler on Iran's attempt to assassinate him

Episode Date: November 22, 2024

Former federal justice minister Irwin Cotler has revealed he was the victim of a planned assassination attempt, backed by the government of Iran. The human rights advocate talks to Matt Galloway about living under police protection — and why it won’t stop his outspoken criticism of the Iranian regime, or his efforts to help the people living under it. 

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. We condemn without reservation the death threats against Mr. Cutler. Mr. Cutler, you are not alone. In the House of Commons on Monday, MP Alexis Brunel-Duceppe of the Bloc Québécois stood in support of Erwin Cotler. Erwin Cotler is well known to Canadians, former Federal Minister of Justice, the International Chair of the Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights. He's also been a long-time critic of the regime in Iran.

human rights. He's also been a longtime critic of the regime in Iran. And now the RCMP has confirmed reporting in the Globe and Mail that Mr. Kotler was the victim of a planned assassination attempt backed by the government of Iran. Erwin Kotler, good morning. Good morning. Good speaking with you. It's really good to talk to you. You've had some week when this news comes out. How are you doing? Well, you know, it's not new. In November 2023, on a return trip from Washington with my wife on arrival in the Montreal airport, we were advised not to leave. The RCMP would be shortly in touch with us, and I was advised then of what they characterized as an imminent and lethal threat on my life. We had no more particulars than that,

other than I would from thereafter be under 24-7 protection. And some months after that, we learned that the source of that threat was Iran, which was not surprising to me because in the Iranian media now, for years they have been speaking of me as being a kind of enemy of the regime and it's part of what I would call a larger policy and pattern of the Iranian regime's transnational repression and assassination so I think this has to be looked on not just as something with regard to me personally but this this is a growing assault on the democratic order. It's a threat to our national sovereignty and security. And the community of democracies, and includes Canada, has to see this as a wake-up call to challenge the Iranian regime's culture of impunity, which it has enjoyed, let alone its massive domestic repression of the Iranian people.

We need to show solidarity with the Iranian people because what we're witnessing by the Iranian regime is the confluence of massive domestic repression and transnational repression and assassination. Can I go back just to that moment of learning about this? I mean, the threat was, as you said, imminent. The word is this was going to happen within 48 hours. You might have given the work that you have done perhaps suspected like something like this could happen. But when you hear that from the RCMP, what goes through your mind? that threat since November. What gave it a sense of urgency was a month ago I was to attend the 60th anniversary of my McGill Law School graduating class, and I was told that day that I could not go because they had evidence of an imminent threat on my life within the next 48 hours. So I did not go. The imminence of the threat became clear on that Saturday. What has changed in your life since you became aware of these threats?

Well, what it means is that all my movements are both monitored and protected. So if I go just to have a haircut, I have a security detail that accompanies me to the place of the haircut and even inside. I began dialysis about a month ago, and I have the security people accompanying me and are with me during my dialysis treatment. So basically, whatever I do, I'm accompanied by an omnipresent security protection, which I just want to say has been exemplary. But it does mean a change in my life, because sometimes if I want to attend a particular event, and it's of a public character, I'm advised that it's not advisable for me to do so. And I have to take into account that the threat to me

can perhaps pose a risk to others. And so I have to be responsible in terms of where I go and what I do. It doesn't change my advocacy because I can engage in that and will continue to do so because part of the transnational repression and assassination is an attempt not only to harass, but to intimidate the target, to silence the target. And so if we are silenced, we basically allow the Iranian regime to be successful in its

attempts at repression and intimidation and the like. So I think it's important for me to continue to do what I've always done, which is, you know, to continue to advocate, to continue to speak up, to support the Iranian people, who, as I said, are not only under tense and escalating domestic repression, but as we speak, you know, a Nobel Peace Laureate like Najmuhammadi, you know, not only was sentenced to unjust in prison, but effectively being tortured in that prison because denied the necessary medical care. I would have thought that the Iranian regime should celebrate that an Iranian citizen was a Nobel Peace Laureate. In fact, what they have done is punish that Nobel Peace laureate.

Do you worry, to your point, the point of these sorts of threats is to intimidate people, to, I mean, yes, perhaps kill them, but to shut them up, to not have them speak. And you say that you won't be silenced, but do you worry that others who don't have the protection that you have will be silenced, people in the community, people beyond who have spoken out against the regime, that that concept of free speech in this country could be threatened because people are afraid to take a stand.

Well, you know, it's human nature. People don't want to put themselves at risk or even put their family at risk if they're not going to have that protection. And, you know, there have been reports in terms of Canada how Iranian dissidents here have been intimidated and threatened. That's why it's important really for our government to act. And what I think right now as we're about to chair the upcoming G7, we have to put the issue of transnational repression and assassination as a priority on the G7 agenda. Thus far, only Canada and the U.S. have put the IRGC on a terrorist list. We have to get the other G7 countries to do so.

And we need, I think, here in Canada to establish a separate department and agency to deal with transnational repression and assassination. Because there are a number of constituent elements. It's not only sort of foreign interference during an electoral campaign, as we have now hearings in that regard. But we have here massive disinformation, misinformation, malinformation, cyber security warfare. We have, as I say, the targeting of the Iranian diaspora of human rights advocates, of journalists. And so this becomes a threat to media freedom.

And we have, of course, the ongoing patterns of intimidation and harassment of Canadian citizens. intimidation and harassment of Canadian citizens. So this has to serve as a wake-up call for the community of democracies, for Canada, that we have to hold the Iranian regime to account, and we have to show increased solidarity with the Iranian people for the reasons that I mentioned. It goes well beyond, as you would know, the Iranian community as well. The federal government and Canadian police have accused the government of India in alleged criminal activities, being involved with the murder of the Canadian Sikh activist, Hardeep Singh Nijjar. You call this a wake-up call, that we need to have a wake-up call in this country. Do you think that Canada has been naive in terms of how the world and some of the bad actors in the world might be operating right now? Well, you know, there's always been a touch of naivete. I think that's almost part of, you know, being Canadians, because we always like to think the best about people, which is a good thing,

and to think the best about countries, which is a good thing. But when you're faced with the reality of this omnipresent, persistent, and pervasive transnational repression and assassination, when that becomes a threat to the international democratic order and to not only the democratic order in Canada, but to Canadian citizens, I think it then becomes the responsibility

of the Canadian government to heed this wake-up call and to begin to put in place the necessary policies and protections. How much of this, when it comes to the threat specifically on your life, how much of this do you think has to do with the war in the Middle East, particularly in the wake of the 7th of October of last year? It may have some, although it began before October 7th, and in terms of the Iranian regime, they've been targeting me for years. It may be that the October 7th might have been a tipping point, and not only with regard to me, but with regard to the increased transnational

repression and assassination. We see the manner in which Iran has been involved with its proxies, Hamas and Hezbollah and the Houthis. So they have intensified their involvement on October 7th and since. And we've had Hamas say they're going to commit October 7th again and again and again with the support and backing of Iran. So, yes, I think that's part of it. That may have been, you know, a tipping point, but it was there before. And our response is to take all these factors into account. And we have to be ahead of the game and begin to address it preemptively rather than belatedly responsibly. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news.

So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Let me ask you, if I might, just a couple of things about the world post-October the 7th.

You were Canada's special envoy on preserving Holocaust remembrance and combating anti-Semitism. There has been an increase in anti-Semitism, an increase in Islamophobia as well in this country and around the world. When you take a look at Canada in 2024, when it comes to the state of anti-Semitism. Where do you see that state today? Well, you know, the mass atrocities of October 7th were perpetrated not only by a terrorist organization, Hamas, under Canadian law, but by an anti-Semitic genocidal terrorist organization. Not because I say so, but because Hamas is so affirmed in its founding charter of 1988 and since, and as I said, affirmed that they'd like to commit October 7th again and

again. One would have thought that this would have resulted in a mitigation of anti-Semitism. One would have thought that this would have resulted in a global condemnation of anti-Semitism. And what we've seen, and you've mentioned that, has been an unprecedented explosion of anti-Semitism globally and here in Canada. You know, I have no problem, you know, with pro-Palestinian protests and rights. I mean, I've been a longtime supporter of two states for two peoples. What we're talking about are pro-Hamas and pro-Hizbollah protests and even celebration of Hamas and Hizbollah in the public square and the campuses.

That, to me, is what's unprecedented. I will say, as Canada's special envoy from 2020 on, that the embers of anti-Semitism were burning before October 7th. I reported in my first year as special envoy that one of the things that concerned me most was, as I said then, was the mainstreaming, the normalizing, the legitimation of anti-Semitism in the political culture, popular culture, entertainment, sports culture, media culture, and in particular in the campus culture. As I've always said, anti-Semitism is not just a threat to Jews. It's toxic to democracies, as my colleague Ahmed Shahid has put it. It's an

assault on our fundamental freedoms. It is, as I've mentioned many times, the canary in the mineshaft of global evil. And so we have to combat it in terms of protecting our democracy and protecting the human rights of Canadians. You're also the former Minister of Justice and the former Attorney General of this country. You also served as a special advisor to the foreign minister around the creation

of the International Criminal Court. How do you think Canada should respond to the ICC warrants that were issued just in the last couple of days when it comes to the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his former defense minister, Yoav Galant? How should Canada respond to those warrants? I've always said that Israel, like any other democracy, must be held accountable for any violations of human rights and humanitarian law. What here has been regrettable is that the ICC, and as someone who's been involved in it, you know, from its founding and the like, is anchored in the principle of complementarity, which means that if a country, a democracy, has an independent judiciary

that is capable of investigating those crimes, then the ICC should not substitute itself for that independent judiciary. Regrettably, and I have been in touch with Kareem Khan, the special prosecutor, we have a long relationship. And in February of 2024, while acting as counsel for hostages who had been abducted and languishing in Gaza, we made representations and submissions to Kareem Khan about bringing Hamas leadership to justice. Then came the possibility of ICC arrest warrants being issued for Prime Minister and Defense

Minister of Israel. And we felt that if that were to be done, that would both undermine the principle of complementarity while prejudicing the pain and plight of the hostages. So it would seem to me at this point that this undermines the foundational principles of the ICC, and I believe it to be prejudicial to the ICC. Again, not that Israeli officials should not be held accountable, but where Israelis are prepared to undertake and have undertaken the necessary investigations themselves, then the principle of complementarity should prevail. And it's an ICC foundational principle. Also, the paradox here that the ICC special prosecutor went to Venezuela,

met with President Maduro, there being a dictatorship, and decided not to issue arrest warrants there in order to cooperate with Maduro, but yet decided to issue arrest warrants with regard to Israel, where the Israeli leadership was prepared to cooperate with the special prosecutor, and he canceled his visit to Israel, and on the same day that he canceled an agreed-upon visit, he then issued the arrest warrant. So I think this regrettably undermines the ICC. Do you worry about undermining the rule of law internationally? That there are people who say that if the rule of law is to be believed and to be upheld, that it applies uniformly, that it can't be applied selectively, and that people would say to follow that logic that you're suggesting would undermine that idea that the rule of law applies universally.

No, I think it's the other way around. I mean, I agree fully with the rule of law principle. I agree fully that it should be held equally, but the ICC foundational principles are that where you have an independent Supreme Court and where you have a situation where independent investigations can be undertaken, then you're not supposed to issue arrest warrants and not substitute your judgment. And here it's the other way around. Can I just finally just end with bringing it back here to this country?

This is a really, it feels like a very fractured world in some ways. And there are competing interests that you see play out on Canadian soil. You have Israeli and Palestinian protests over the war. You have Sikh and Hindu scrimmages happening in outside temples over the course of the last few weeks across this country. How do we coexist peacefully with different worldviews in this country, do you think? That really worries people, that people aren't able to disagree without taking it beyond a disagreement. Yeah, well, that worries me too. You know, when I was a Minister of Justice and Attorney General, I then instituted a national justice initiative

against racism and hate. And I established then a Council on National Security, which was co-chaired by Canadian Jew and a Canadian Muslim. And we worked in concert at that time. And I, of course, as an MP, we always were working across partisan lines and the like. What worries me is the manner in which we have become more polarized and more divisive within our own democracy. I think we are at an historic inflection moment where what we're seeing is not only a resurgent global authoritarianism, but a concerted and intensifying axis of evil involving not only Iran, but China and Russia and North Korea on the one

hand. And yet we don't have a mobilized community of democracies on the other. Rather, we have divisiveness within the democracies. And I think the larger struggle here is really the struggle between democracy and tyrannies. And it's time for the democracies to come together to hold the tyrannies accountable. What we need is the Canadians to come together in common cause because the hate and discrimination here is the cause of all of us. And that has to be addressed in the best of Canadian traditions and values. Difficult to remain optimistic in the face of that?

Well, I'm an optimist by nature. I believe very much as the Reverend Martin Luther King Jr. used to say that at the end of the day, the arc of history will bend towards justice. But we have to help bend that arc towards justice. justice but we have to help bend that arc towards justice and if we do so then i believe both the dream of martin luther king of that happening and what we can hope to have happen in canada will indeed be realized erwin kotler good to speak with you thank you very much and take good care thank you good speaking with you man erwin kotler is a former federal minister of justice and the international chair of the Raoul Wallenberg Center for Human Rights. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.