The Current - Is Canada off track with our climate policy?

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

Prime Minister Mark Carney is rolling back climate policies and ramping up oil and gas production, all while experts are warning that Canada isn't going to reach its 2030 emissions targets. We unpack what's going on with Mark Carney's climate policies — and what it means for the future of our economy, and environment.

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The backtracking we're seeing from the corporate sector is understandable or any way acceptable. It's not. It's dangerous. It's immoral. It's now illegal under international law. And it threatens public safety and security. So I think if this hushing that we keep hearing about is not terrifying you, you're not paying attention. That's Canadian environmentalists, Sopor Berman, speaking yesterday at Climate Week in New York City. World leaders and climate activists are gathered there

in partnership with the United Nations General Assembly to discuss solutions to climate change. The backdrop is global warming and climate emergencies like we've never seen, economic uncertainty like we've never seen, and countries pulling back from their emissions reduction targets, including Canada. Catherine McKenna is the CEO of Climate and Nature Solutions, former Canadian Minister of Environment and Climate Change.

also the author of a brand new memoir called Run Like a Girl, which is out today. And she is also in New York City, a Climate Week, where she's leading and taking part in several discussions. Catherine McKenna, good morning. Hi, Matt. Congratulations on the book. Very exciting. Hopefully people like it. It's in scrapbook format. So you can see a lot of pictures.

Barbies. Some people sent me Barbies, men sent me Barbies, or pictures of the gavel from the Paris Agreement or my swimming ribbons. Hopefully it inspires women and girls and young people who are still working. hard on climate action on human rights. So we've got to keep on going. What's the mood like down there at this climate conference? Is it inspiring? No, it's hard. I'm going to be perfectly honest. I'm here. I also do work for the United Nations Secretary General. I'm working with businesses, companies, sorry, financial institutions, cities and regions on climate action. And there are a lot less businesses that are willing to step up. At the same time, we know the climate

crisis is a lot worse. We saw this the summer with a massive wildfires, but you're seeing it around the world. And at the same time, we have the solutions. 90% of new renewables are cheaper than fossil fuels. So you'd think there'd be more ambition now. But I think, look, I mean, Trump's threats against companies are having a real impact. And the fossil fuel sector, they continue to push hard for more fossil fuels, even though they are the cause of the climate crisis. And so, I mean, there's lots of us, support Burma is an example. Cities and regions are stepping up. Other, you know, many countries are still there.

Australia just announced a new ambitious target. But it's a lot harder right now. What's the hushing that Zippor was talking about there? Well, it's just that people don't want to talk about climate. That leaders don't want to talk about climate. And they want to talk about, I mean, obviously trade in the economy. And we've got to be, you know, focused on supporting Ukraine. and, you know, we are all trying to deal with Trump in the fallout.

But, I mean, what doesn't make any sense is that climate is an economic issue as much as anything else. The costs of climate change are massive in lives, but also we're seeing the costs in, you know, on the economy. I mean, countries can't even afford the climate catastrophes anymore, and there's this huge opportunity to pay less using renewables. So the green hushing is really not talking about it. And I was on a panel yesterday where it looked at how that has such a negative impact. If leaders talk about climate, people actually want to talk about it. They're worried about it. They want to have the solutions.

They want to know that they can get solar on their balconies, which is a solution that's all over Europe. And they want to move forward. But unfortunately, if leaders don't lead, and I saw this when I was working on carbon pricing, like, you know, I was fighting really hard. and Canadians supported climate action. And I think that's what we need. We need leaders to step up and say we're in a climate emergency, but good news.

We've got the solutions. And we've got to work together. That's why we're here in New York at the UN to move forward and tackle this massive crisis. Are you surprised that Canada? We're going to talk more about this, but that Canada is not on track to reach our emissions targets for 2030. This comes out of the report from the Canadian Climate Institute.

Are you surprised by that? No, because the reality is everyone is doing their part on climate except for one sector. That sector is called oil and gas. They have increased their emissions every single year. They're now 30 percent. So they're a third of our emissions. So if they don't do any work, if they just continue to raise to increase their emissions, despite all their promises, despite making record historic profits, which they give back to largely U.S. shareholders, we can't meet a target. And that's the problem. Oil and gas has made promises. I mean, they greenwashed, so they said they were going to do things, never did things, and

continue to increase our mission. So you just can't meet targets that way. What do you make of our own government's actions? And I ask you this as somebody who has some experience, obviously, in government. The prime minister has rolled back the consumer carbon tax. He's also rolled back EV targets. He's fax tracking some mega projects as part of the national interest in the context that we're in right now. What do you make of how this government is approaching climate policy? Well, look, I think like many people, I'm waiting to see what the climate plan will be. Can you square what you've already heard with the man who wrote a book about values?

I mean, Mark Carney wrote an entire, you know, a doorstopper of a book that was about climate change in many ways. Can you square the two things? Well, I think we're waiting to see the climate plan. I know Mark Carney. I've worked with him both as minister and then we both worked for the, you know, the UN Secretary General on climate. And as you say, he wrote a book where he talks about the existential crisis that is climate

change and the huge risk to our economies and to businesses if we don't act on climate change. And so, I mean, I'm waiting to see the plan. There are some rarely, you know, there are significant measures that will help. The price that oil and gas companies pay for pollution that they cause, the poison they are literally putting in the atmosphere, is next to nothing. So that certainly needs to be ratcheted up. Methane that they produce would also, it can be captured. It's natural gas.

We need really strong rules on that. But I do worry a bit about this idea of a grand bargain because when we were in government, and people can read this in my book, I talk about lots of different things. It's not just about climate change, but I do talk about climate change. And, you know, I feel like I was duped because the oil and gas company stood up with the Alberta government of the time, Rachel Notley, saying they supported a cap on emissions. They supported really strong methane regulations. They supported a price on pollution.

And then kind of the quid pro quo to have Alberta as part of our climate plan was a pipeline. And that was a tough pill if you're the environment minister, but you've got to be realistic. And then we got nothing. We got nothing except for more emissions. And they made massive historic record profits, not because they're brilliant, but largely off of Russia's illegal war against Ukraine. And then they took that money and didn't invest. and clean. And here we are all paying the price. And it's a fossil fuel climate crisis. And I just wish we'd all be logical. And look, in my book, you'll see I did pinky promises with kids across

the country. And those kids are living up to their promise to act on climate change. I think I'm living up to my promise to act on climate change. It's time for oil and gas companies to do their part too. Catherine McKenna, good to speak with you. Thank you very much. Great to speak to you, Matt. Catherine McKenna, CEO of Climate and Nature Solutions, former Canadian Minister of Environment and climate change and the author, as you heard, of a brand new book. Out today. It's called Run Like a Girl. What kind of person takes on the law?

Can they ever really know what they're getting into? A really tough-looking guy came up to us and said, are you part of this gay case? My family started getting death threats. I wasn't able to go outside alone anymore. I'm Phelan Johnson, host of See You in Court, a new podcast about the cases that changed Canada and the ordinary people who made history.

This is David England. we have here. Find and follow. See you in court wherever you get your podcasts. As I mentioned, the Canadian Climate Institute's new report is saying that for the first time, this country is no longer on track to reach its emission targets for 2030. Rick Smith is president of the Canadian Climate Institute. He's in our Ottawa studio. And Mark Jackard is CEO and chair of the BC Utilities Commission and a distinguished professor of sustainable energy at Simon Fraser University. He's in Vancouver. Good morning. to you both. Good morning, Matt.

Good morning. Rick, why has this country stalled on its climate action? Well, it's a combination of factors. As you mentioned in our report released last week, we found that emissions nationally between 2023 and 2024 basically flatlined. So if you look at that lack of progress, and then you pair with that the retrenchment of climate policy across the country, so at a federal level, but also at a provincial level. Industrial carbon pricing systems are a provincial responsibility across the country, and we saw last week almost the same day as our report came out, the government of Alberta rolling back its industrial carbon pricing policies. So this combination of lack of momentum and then a rolling back, a delay on important

carbon policies, that's where we're at. Mark, this is not a sudden development, but as I was saying to Catherine McKenna, the context in some ways is different. How do we square what's going on right now and what is in this report with the policies of the current government in Ottawa around nation-building and a focus on economic growth? yeah i'm not sure i would necessarily connect the two i think the climate institute rick's organization has done a great service by trying to give us more up-to-date numbers so that we're not looking always three years back when we've collected the numbers but at the same time if you look at the numbers for emissions in any jurisdiction and certainly nationally in canada um they do

fluctuate over time there's a whole bunch of other things happening so um you know whether it's COVID or economic recession or whatever, and also our measurements aren't always that good. So I wouldn't read too much into what's just happened. Of course, in terms of change in policy in Canada, that actually takes half a decade to a decade to play itself out. But certainly we're not on a path to reach the kind of targets that had been set by government for the year 2030. And this report really, I think, does confirm that, that we're kind of flatlining. But I think you needed to flatline unless you had the continuation of a rising carbon tax or subsidies for electric vehicles and all of these other policies that we do have that the government has not

yet gotten rid of. So I'll end by saying, I still have hope. We have a whole bunch of policies. Catherine referred to some of them. And those can continue to be tightened if this government wants to do that. Some of those key policies, Mark, have been, if not gotten rid of, at least put on a shelf. You have a consumer carbon tax that's been scrapped. That was the first thing that Mark Carney did when he became the prime minister. You also have those EV targets that have been put on pause at the very least. What do you make of those moves? Again, in this context, we're talking about a context where Donald Trump is the president of the United States,

this country is facing economic peril. What do you make of those moves? Yeah, so we just had a federal election in which Canadians coalesced around two parties. one party promised to remove the carbon tax and every other climate policy, including the industry carbon tax, which is half of emissions, and then also these other key policies like the zero emission vehicle requirement and also something called a clean fuel standard, clean electricity requirements. So that party did not win the election. The party that won the election said, we'll get rid of the carbon tax on consumers, we'll keep the one on industry, that's half of emissions,

and we'll keep these other policies. Now, you mentioned the zero-mission vehicle requirement. I was one that was arguing, hey, you're not going to make some of the near targets, so you do need to readjust that policy. And some of the other ones, we do need to start to have policies that are at stringency levels that then modelers, analysts like the people of the climate is to, can say, oh, here's the target you need for 2030 and 2035, because this is, the stringency of your policies. And unfortunately, and even back under Catherine McKenna,

unfortunately, we set targets and then said, let's try to get policies that achieve them. And that wasn't realistic. So I'm actually thinking we can be in a more realistic world right now. Rick, before he moved to politics, and I mentioned this with Catherine, Mark Carney wrote a book about values and about the existential threat of climate change. He created his financial alliance to pressure reductions to the fossil fuel industry. How much confidence People are waiting to hear what his climate plan is going to be. How much confidence do you have in Mark Carney as the Prime Minister now to pursue that agenda that he wrote about in that book? Yeah.

Well, the Prime Minister and this government have promised something quite important, actually, and we're waiting for it to be unveiled. The government has said, look, we're coming forward this fall with a package of measures, a reassertion of existing policy and maybe adding some new policy to make sure that climate policy is a lot. with Canadian competitiveness is contributing fully to the economic success of our country. And, you know, I couldn't agree more with that. It's easy these days overwhelmed by Donald Trump news as Canadians. I mean, we're living next to this kind of volatile, unstable country to the south. It's easy to forget that though Donald Trump is clearly not keen on making progress on climate change, the rest of the world is. So when the prime minister talks about diversifying our trading relationships, tightening up trade with Europe, with China,

with India, with, you know, he was in Mexico earlier this week, all of these jurisdictions remain committed to climate change progress, are electrifying their economies, are looking for the kinds of critical minerals and electrical machinery that Canada can mine and manufacture. So, you know, I think a fact-based, tough-minded realignment of climate policy and economic policy sounds good. But we need to get on with us. Now, this government's been elected for almost five months. It hasn't indicated to Canadians where it stands on climate policy. it needs to do that quickly. Mark, can you do both of those things? I mean, can you

get to net zero and build baby build? Yeah. So the, I agree with everything that Rick just said. And I am someone, though, that if the build, baby build is to do with our fossil fuel supply for export to other countries. As an energy economist, I've long had to explain or argue with my environmentalist friends, that the emissions related to the extraction of natural gas, coal, oil, and then their export to other countries will happen somewhere on the planet, whether in Canada or somewhere else. What you want to do is, well, follow a model like Norway, which says we know that we'll export it or someone else will.

So the emissions related to that are things that we'll almost look at in a separate account. And then let's focus on our domestic emissions. And so you can be building, and some of those will be for fossil fuel export, other are minerals and so on that are needed as part of the energy transition. And at the same time, doing policies to reduce your emissions. And that's, as Rick said, this is time for the government to come out with those. We do have a set of them. They're methane regs.

They're still that industrial pricing system. They're still the clean electricity requirement. And as I said, the clean fuels and clean vehicles. And so we need the government to lay those out, just as Rick was saying. What are those arguments like with your environmentalist friends? What's the tenor of that argument? Well, it's the idea that if we stop building oil or gas pipelines or extracting oil from the ground or natural gas,

the argument is that we've done something for the planet, and we haven't. And so I just try to keep people and also, through books, like my last one, The Citizen's Guide to Climate Success, is to get people to focus on how we reduce our domestic emissions. And so the loss of the consumer carbon tax is not bothering some to me because it was always politically challenging. And so I advise people not to do it, including the McKenna government, McKenna when she was the minister.

But there are all of these other policies that cover all the same emissions. They're working quite well. California has them. We have different jurisdictions like British Columbia and Quebec that have them. So the argument I say to my environmentalist friends is, please, don't forget, we've got policies out there. Let's keep pushing for those to have tightening stringencies. Rick, we're almost at a time. Do you want a word to respond? Well, I just want to remind us why we're doing all this. I mean, climate change is not about bloodless targets. It's not about kind of weird vocabulary.

We need to fight climate change because climate change is hurting Canadian. Because we've had fires across this country. We've had cities that are, you know, thousands of kilometers away from those fires, right, blanketed and smoke this summer. Right. So the only way to protect Canadians, to protect the economic security of Canadians, and the physical security of Canadians, is to bring down emissions and to make sure that infrastructure in our communities

is up to snuff when it comes to this new climate reality. And you're optimistic, again, there's a lot of bad news in the world. You're optimistic, Rick, just very briefly, that we can make progress on this? People are looking for some degree of hope and optimism these days. Listen, people should take a look at our report from last week because part of what we're trying to do is to point to areas where we're having success. And the electricity sector is an area where we've had a lot of success.

Emissions are down 60% over the last decade, just incredible achievement, you know, testament to people like Mark and others who are involved in this sector. who've done their homework. So there are bright spots, and we just need to build on those. It's always good to speak with you both, and I'm glad to have you both here this morning. Thank you very much. Thanks so much. Thank you. Rick Smith is the president of the Canadian Climate Institute. Mark Jackard is the chair and CEO of the BC Utilities Commission and Distinguished Professor of Sustainable Energy at Simon Fraser University. You've been listening to the current podcast.

My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca slash podcasts.