The Current - Is India the answer to Canada's trade troubles?

Episode Date: March 2, 2026

Mark Carney's visit to India is supposed to "reset" relations and expand trade. There's no question there are plenty of opportunities. It's the world's most populous country with a growing middle class and an appetite for many of the products Canada makes. We speak to Tom Sundher of Sundher Timber Products about why he thinks India offers great opportunities for Canadian softwood producers wary of U.S. tariffs and duties. We also hear from Michael Klauck of Can-Eng Furnaces, about the challenges he faced navigating India's bureaucracy, and actually getting paid. Plus, Vina Nadjibulla of the Asia Pacific Foundation about what Canadians get wrong about India today — and what it would take to strengthen ties. 

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N-E-T-H-R-I-S dot com. Nethris, much more than just a payroll software. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. There has been more engagement between the Canadian and Indian governments in the last year than there has been in more than two decades combined. So this is not merely the renewal of a relationship. It is the expansion of a valued partnership with new ambition,

focus and foresight. Prime Minister Mark Carney and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced a new partnership between their two countries today. It features a number of multi-million dollar deals and a pledge to sign a free trade agreement by the end of this year. Carney met with Modi in Delhi as part of a visit with a broader push to reset relations with the world's most populous country, and it comes, of course, at a time when Canada is seeing the United States as a less reliable partner.

For my next guest, expanding into India has been a key business strategy. Tom Sunder is the CEO of Sunder Timber Products. He is in Surrey, British Columbia. Tom, good morning. Good morning, Matt. How important is the Indian market to your business? Well, it's not, you know, we've been working on the Indian market for well over 20 years, and it's taken quite a while to grow that market. And right now it's about 10% of our market, out of 100. 10%. And we do sell into the United States.

We do sell into Canada, Europe, China, all over the place. 10% is a decent size of your business, though. Yeah, yeah. No, it's okay, and it's growing. And, you know, like we're on the coast of BC, so our coastal species of hemlock, Douglas fir, Western Red Cedar, Yellow Cedar, and Sitka Spruce is what we market.

and into India for the various products that they need. This started, as I understand it, when you were at a family wedding. Can you just very briefly just tell that story? Yeah. Well, I was born in Port Alberti, and my parents, they came from India. My grandparents came in 1907, and then my dad, and they never went back. So I didn't know hardly anything about India, but I married an Indian girl from India. And we settled here in Portauburni and on Vancouver Island, and I'm in the timber business.

So her sister, a younger sister, was getting married. So my wife said, why don't you go to India and attend a wedding and also meet up with some of your family members? So I went to India in the early 2000. And when I went there, I seen all this wood being used, you know, for doors, windows, furniture, flooring, all kinds of stuff. But it was all hardwoods. And so after the visit there, I came back here and started talking to different companies, Kofi, talked to them, I talked to forced investment.

None of them were even thinking of India. It wasn't even on their plate. So I just started lobbying everybody, and then I, you know, I did a lot of business. here with McMillan-Bludel at the time and got them interested in working with me on products into the India market. What does it like to work in that market? India is at number 63

on the World Bank's ease of doing business index. There's a reputation that it's tricky in part because of bureaucracy and what have you. What is it like to do business there? Well, I haven't had, you know, that many challenges. What I did when I got back, I phoned and met up with our trade office here in Vancouver and got them to work with me,

and they contacted our trade office in Delhi. And then I started making trips back and forth, and they helped me a lot, making contact with people that are furniture makers or door manufacturers or window manufacturers. Those people, I had to meet, and I got to meet them through our trade offices. They introduced me to these companies,

but they were all using hardwoods. So I had a hell of a time convincing them to use our hemlock, fur, and cedar because hardwoods is quite different from our softwoods. You know, we have to kiln dry it and we have to be careful where we use it. And they were also concerned about termites. And termites is a big issue.

and our woods aren't termite-proof. No wood is termite-proof, but their teak has more resilience, so they use the teak over there a lot for outside windows and outside doors. But I figured that our wood could be sold there for different uses and mostly for window frames, door frames, moldings, and that type of stuff.

And we use it all over the world. So I slowly found a customer or two, and they started using our wood. And it just grew from there. Just hard work. You just have to go there, figure out what they're using it for, and convince them.

And then what good thing happened, that Canada would and forced investment innovation, decided that India is a market that they should look at. So they really helped me. They put in offices over there. They hired about 11 people over there in different parts of India and helped all us companies grow the business over there. I'm going to let you go.

But what is one piece of advice that you would give for Canadian businesses who are thinking about getting established in India? You have the prime minister there. You have these trade deals that are being signed. So what's the bit of advice that you would give them? Well, they have to go there. You have to go there. I kept going there.

Some of these companies don't want to go there. They just don't. They go once or twice, and they stop going. You got to go there. You got to find out what their specifications are, what they're making, and then start selling them the wood to make the product they want to make. But you only know that if you actually show up and get there on the ground. You got to go there.

You got to go there. So after years and years, I go there, I finally got enough business where I could open up an office. over there and hired two individuals that were good at wood over there, and they had a degree in wood technology in that. I hired them. They've been with me now 10 years, and we just keep working at it. It's just like anything else. You just got to make a relationship, build up trust in relationships.

And if Canadians or anyone don't want to do that, then nothing will happen. It's good to hear your perspective on this. As I say, a lot of businesses are thinking about those opportunities there, and it's important to hear what a business like yours has done to seize on and capitalize on those opportunities. Tom, thank you very much. Okay, thank you. Tom Sunder is the CEO of Sunder Timber Products using Surrey, British Columbia. And as you've heard, India has been an important source of opportunity for businesses like his.

For some companies, though, exporting to India has not gone quite as well. My name is Michael Clouk. I'm the president of 10-inch furnaces in Niagara Falls, Ontario. We are an industrial furnace manufacturer. We've exported to over 20 countries around the world. We've done exports in very, very challenging markets geographically and geopolitically. We took a contract, a large contract, actually it's the largest contract that we ever did have. It was a $25 million contract in February of 2013, and this project was for the production of

very high strength plates for the Indian military and Indian Navy. I think there's an incredible opportunity in India, but it is not for the faint-hearted, for the weak-hearted. It's something you're going to have to go into expecting likely to make very little money in the beginning, maybe even incur losses. It's very, very difficult for people that have executed contracts and other markets around the world to understand the level. of difficulty that it takes really to get final payments, even to get interim payments.

The geographical distance between Canada and India makes it one of the most remote places in the world to do business. I wouldn't discourage people from going. If you believe that you have a better mouse trap that you could sell to India than what exists in the local market, then go for it. Just be prepared that this is, it's not an easy road. You know, you have to be in it for the long haul. Michael Klouk is the CEO of Canang Furnaces International. At Nethris, we are Canada's payroll experts. For more than 45 years, we have proudly supported local businesses.

Powered by CGI, we provide a robust and secure technological infrastructure. Let our specialists handle your payroll so you can maximize your efficiency and focus on what truly matters. Try Nethris now. The first month is free. Certain conditions apply. N-E-H-R-I-S-D-R-I-S-com. Nethris, much more than just a payroll software.

You know that feeling when you reach the end of a really good true crime series? You want to know more, more about the people involved, or the cases now, and what it's like behind the scenes. I get that. I'm Kathleen Goldhar, and on my podcast, Crime Story, I speak with the leading storytellers of true crime to dig deeper into the cases we all. just can't stop thinking about. Find crime story wherever you get your podcasts. Vina Najibullah is Vice President of Research and Strategy at the Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada. Vina, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Thanks for being here. Michael Clark says that doing business in India is not for the weak-hearted. What do businesses here need to know about navigating the world of business there? Well, India is a dynamic, complex and a growing market. There are some challenges there, of course, but I think the opportunities are enormous, and that's what's come out of this week of meetings that the Prime Minister and others are having in India. I think for Canada, not just from a perspective of exports, but also from investment as well as trade and services. India is a huge market, and it's a growing market. Is it a particularly tricky place to do business, though?

It can be. I mean, I think your previous guests were absolutely right. There are a couple of things that you have to keep in mind. First of all, you do have to show up in person. This is true about many places in Asia, but in India as well. You have to build those relationships. You have to be on the ground. Second, you have to use the help of the incredible ecosystem

that now exists from the Canadian government as well as businesses, trade officers and commissioners, EDC, expert development, Canada. that there are many who are trying to encourage Canadian businesses to go to India. So don't do it alone. Ask for help and use the resources that are available. And then there has to be also recognition about what it is that you're bringing, what's your value proposition. So having really clear understanding of what you want to do and then executing that as quickly as possible.

So I think geography makes it hard, but there are many other pieces that could be helpful for those who are interested. And again, we're living through a time where you have to do things which were uncomfortable before. So India may have seemed far away, but I think with this visit, Prime Minister has really opened up a lot of doors. And we do have a moment of opportunity, and I hope more Canadian businesses will seize it. And the opportunities are enormous. The middle class is something like 500 million people. Square that with reality.

Does it actually provide the opportunities that it promises to? Absolutely. So it is the fastest growing major economy. It is now the fourth largest economy, soon to be the third. And it's complementary to what Canada has to offer. That's, I think, important because India needs energy. It needs food. It needs technology and investment.

These are all the things that Canada can provide, especially when it comes to energy. I think there's now a huge opportunity, especially with this new strategic partnership that was agreed by the two prime ministers. They're interested in crude. They're interested in nuclear and hydrogen as well as in LNG. And India's demand will essentially be a third of the total global demand by 2040s. So for us to become a real energy provider to Asia, India has to be part of that puzzle. Similarly, on things around services, so much of our trade, bilateral trade, so far has been around services, but that's focused on education and foreign students. But I think during this visit, what was really striking to me, Matt,

was that Canadian University signed 13 MOUs, most of them around joint research and doing things together, including in India, so transnational education, which I think is a whole other area that can be explored, especially around AI, quantum, sort of bringing innovation and technology and really taking advantage of India's talent and the entrepreneurial spirit that now exists there.

So I think, I mean, I can spend hours explaining all the different sectors, but the bottom line is the opportunity is there. And I think especially if we conclude the Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, it would be easier and more predictable to do business in India. If the opportunity is so large, why has it taken so long to get to this point? I think because, as you mentioned, geography, distance, lack of familiarity. I mean, Canada and India are not sort of natural partners when it comes to ease and geography, but now with the opportunities that are opening up through the export infrastructure,

because until last year, Mad, we didn't really have a way to get our energy to Asia. It's only through the TMX expansion pipeline as well as LNG Canada that this is now even an option. So I think we're now in a moment where we have export infrastructure that's coming online and more of it, hopefully we'll come online soon. We have the need to diversify and look beyond the U.S. And India is also changing. I have to say that India until recently has been quite defensive when it came to trade agreements, when it came to opening up its market. But because of its own needs and its own development objectives, it's really moving quickly in negotiating free trade agreements. Just in the last year, it has signed a mega trade agreement with the European Union,

with the United Kingdom, with New Zealand, and a number of other partners. So I think the moment is right on both sides. The trust has a lot to do with that as well, right? You have accusations being leveled from the highest levels of this government towards the Indian government of involvement in the murder of Canadian citizens on Canadian soil, for example, accusations around foreign interference. It goes on and on and on. How do you rebuild trust?

Absolutely. In the last two years, you absolutely right, the headlines have been, negative and they have focused on foreign interference and transnational repression. And that has led to an unfavorable view among majority of Canadians. We just released a survey yesterday that shows that majority of Canadians still view India cautiously. And that's because of the foreign interference and transnational repression. So I think we do have to rebuild trust and we have to address those issues. So I think the more the government can communicate how it's trying to address foreign interference, what are the mechanisms, how is India cooperating?

the more I think we'll see some progress on that. And then beyond that, it's important to expand the conversation about India because so much of the conversation now has focused on that one issue, and it's an important issue. But it's a much bigger picture that needs to be considered from an economic perspective, from a people-to-people perspective. So I think by engaging, by having these kinds of visits, Prime Minister Carney's visit, I think, went a long way in changing some of that,

certainly on the India. side. And now we have to do that here in Canada as well. And the government does need to communicate a lot more about why India matters and how are we addressing the challenges in the relationship. Fianna, good to speak with you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Vina Najibula, is Vice President of Research and Strategy at the Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.