The Current - Is there more to doppelgängers than similar looks?

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

Doppelgängers used to be considered a sign of bad luck, but now online groups and lookalike competitions can help you find your dead ringer. We hear about the fascinating experience of coming face-to-face with your lookalike — and whether the similarities are ever more than skin deep.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news, so I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with Season 3 of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is The Current Podcast. We are hosting a Timothy Chalamet look-alike contest, and we got kicked out of Washington Square Park. This guy's got it. That guy's got it right there. I got the cheekbones too. Almost 2,000 people turned up in New York City for that look-alike contest,

including the actor, Timothy Chalamet himself. Other celebrity look-alike competitions have popped up in cities around the world, from London to San Francisco. Doppelgangers used to be seen as a bad omen, but finding your doppelganger has become a thing.

Online groups are popping up to help millions of people find theirs, and this fascination with doppelgangers took hold of our next guest more than two decades ago. François Brunel is a Canadian photographer. He's captured the images of 250 pairs of doppelgangers in dozens of countries around the world. Matt Galloway spoke with him in November. Here's their conversation. How did your interest in doppelgangers begin? Yes, well, it's a long story. I used to see and I still do look at people and find their likeness to other people.

I've been doing that all my life. But I was told I looked like a certain Mr. Bean about 30 years ago. Like the British comedy? Like Rowan Atkinson? Yes, the character. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't know who that was

and maybe it was, maybe my face looked like a bean or I didn't know what it was. But one day I saw one night on television, this man taking a bath and the wall was falling down. And he looked very weird and awkward, but he just looked like me. He was dressed the same. I used to dress with a suit and a tie and a shirt to look serious, you know. But, you know, I was flabbergasted, as you say. The program ended with the letters, Mr. Bean.

And then I thought, oh, no, people think I look like this guy, this character. And I think I look like this character, so there's no doubt. But until then, I thought I would look more like another character, Mr. Dean, James Dean. Truly, truly. Those are very different people. So given that, and the fact that people said you look like Mr. Bean, how did you end up taking these photographs of doppelgangers around the world? When I had this shock about meeting my doppelganger on the screen,

I just had this idea, which is a fantasy, in fact, is to find that lookalikes that would be like perfect, bring them together in front of the camera, and then they would be so in a state of shock, I would say, that the picture would be good because of that. That was a fantasy because when I started the project, some people know each other before that, so it doesn't matter.

But people who meet for the first time in my studio, they have a little shock for about five or six seconds, and that's all. How do you go about finding people that look alike? Well, at first and during the project, I found myself a few lookalikes. In fact, quite a number. But then I was short of lookalikes, so I went to the media and I asked for help. How alike are we talking about? I mean, how much do these people look like each other?

That's a very good question, Matt, and thank you for asking it, because that's the key of the project. A lookalike is someone you confound with another person. They don't have to be exactly the same. And they are very rarely the same. Some of them are pretty much the same, I must say. But most of them, they look more or less the same. But the fact is that if you talk to someone on the street thinking it's somebody else, then they look the same.

But if you put them together in the studio, you say, oh, the air is different, the nose is different, everything is different. But it's the way of being. And the question is, when you look at yourself in the mirror, Matt, and in the morning you shave or I don't know, and then you say, oh, this is Matt Galloway. Yeah, this is you.

But then maybe somebody else in another city in the country is looking at himself in the mirror, looking at almost the same thing and says to himself, yeah, this is George. Yeah, this is me. This is George. So who is Matt Galloway at the end? That's a deep question.

I mean, is that in many ways, and we're going to hear from some of the people that you brought together, but is that what you were trying to answer, who we are? Well, I'm not sure if I'm looking for an answer, but I'm looking for the question, because when I saw this Mr. Bean, I thought, okay, I look really like this character, and then I thought I was somebody else. I didn't know I was that, you know. It's pretty strange, pretty strange. So we have a couple of the lookalikes with us that you photographed in 2003.

Nathanael Asiri is a director and a producer in Los Angeles. Edward Toledo is a dance teacher in Montreal. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Hello, how are you doing? Now, Daniel, how did you first hear about Edward? We were working for the same company for a few months, and I've been hearing about a guy that looks just like me in the company,

and I wanted to disagree, so I was like, I can't wait to meet this guy. in the company and I was, I wanted to disagree. So I was like, I can't wait to meet this guy. And we finally met at the party, the end of the year party of this said company. And that's how I met him. And when you saw him for the first time, having, having heard the, there was somebody who looked like you, what was your response?

There was such a momentum going into that party. I was like looking for him. I was there before him. I was like, when is he coming in? When is he coming in? And then I saw him. I stared at him. He didn't see me right away.

And I went to him and I said, let's go compare face in the bathroom. So, yeah, that's how we met. And I think I startled him, actually. Edward, were you startled? What was that experience like for you? Yes, it was a's how we met. And I think I startled him, actually. Edward, were you startled? What was that experience like for you? Yes, it was a bit of a shock. On my end, I have heard, I have had many people telling me, you should meet this person. He looks just like you. But I was just new into the scene of V-Dance World.

And Nathaniel was ahead of me because he had done many different contracts and he had a lot of already connections in the domain. And so that's why everyone was telling me, wow, you just got here, but we know someone that looks just like you. So I had many months of this. And after we worked in the same company, but we were not doing the same events. So the people in the same company would tell us also that. And so the end of year party was the anticipation towards like, okay, we're going to finally get to see if this is actually a reality. And so Nathaniel saw me and he like tapped me in the back and I turned around and I was like, whoa, yes, this is the person. This is him, obviously. I'm looking at a photo of the two of you.

You do, I mean, you look different, but you do look very similar. Did you see that, Nathaniel? Did you see that similarity right away? No, I never felt that we've looked so similar for some reason. People say that, I said, and I have to agree because everyone says that, but at the same time, I'm staring at the photo and I'm like, yeah, we kind of look similar.

But since then, I've grown to know Edouard and I count him as my brother. So it's a very different feeling. I don't see myself in him. I see him for who he is. So the person took over, I guess. Francois, you took this photo that I'm looking at. What did you see when these two men came together? Well, it's a long time, but I thought they looked pretty much the same.

But it's interesting what Nathaniel just said. He said, I don't think I look like Edward, because the title of my project is I'm Not a Lookalike. So it's great because there's a few subjects in the project who just said that like oh you know François I don't think I look like the other guy and I remember

it was quite emotional because and well you look at the picture the way the hand on Edward's head and it's one of the good pictures that I did. And I'm very, very proud of it. And thanks, Nathaniel.

Merci. Et merci, Edward. Muchas gracias. Edward, it was emotional. For you? For me? It was a strange feeling because I was confused very often by him. So I heard his name all the time.

And I was beginning to learn how to dance. And he was ahead of me like three, four years. So all of his dreams and his accomplishments were ambitions of mine. So it was kind of a bit of a mixture of things, of emotions, because I was always named Nathaniel. Everyone was telling me, like, for example, dance teachers, choreographers would confuse me with his name. And at some point, it was kind of irritating. And I was like, I have my own personality. I was trying to get, you know, known. And so, yeah, I got to know him. And I saw that he has a lot of aspect of his personality that are very, very similar to me. So the connection that we got right from the

beginning was pretty strong a mixture of all kind of emotions because that's how we met we have a lot of uh affinities uh we we both like similar things we laughs are very similar i think our laughs are look very much alike um And we, yeah, we have very similar personalities and affinities. So that's, I think, where the most resemblance resides. This photo was taken 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago. Edward, I mean, do you have a connection between the two of you now? Is it just, I mean, it's something that lives in the past and it's a great story, but are you friends?

How does that work now? We're like really close friends, but we don't live close, but we are connected in a way that is really special because we never actually stopped developing our connection throughout the years. And more so than that, we did share a partnership like at the beginning of relationship, and then we turned it into a friendship. And now it's sort of like a bond, similar to what a sibling would feel like, because I know I can count on him. The bond is very strong. Nathaniel, you called him your brother.

I called him my little brother. I feel I don't have a brother anymore. My brother died when I was a kid. And since then, I realized with the connection that I have a bond and I want to protect him and I want to be here for him. And I realized doing a documentary project last year that it might be linked to the fact

that I'm not a brother anymore. And the connection is really one of fraternity because I really am there for him when he needs counseling. I'm trying to be mindful of what I'm saying because I know it has an impact on him. And I know that when I'm sad, he listens to me. He's there to receive all the types of emotion that can come out, and he doesn't judge.

That's really special in some ways. What do you think, I'll ask you both this, because as I said, this is a thing now. There's a long piece in National Geographic about this. There have been these lookalike competitions, but there's also just people are looking for their doppelganger if they think they have one. What do you think is driving that, Nathaniel?

I don't know. I don't get it. You don't get it? No, I don't get it. Every time when I hear about it, I'm like, why? Why do you want to find someone who looks like you? I guess I found mine 20 years ago, so that's probably why I already have it.

But I do not feel the need to find someone that looks like me. I do not where it stems from. I do not feel the same. I don't know. How about you, Edouard? I've always thought about this question as a weird thing because it just happened to us. I wasn't looking for someone that had the same experience as me.

But it turned out to be at the beginning of my adventure with dance, Nathaniel was exactly what I wanted in my life, like everything that he was doing. So it's a mixture of the energy that he has, and I think people in general have the desire to connect, to find someone that they can consider themselves special with. So it's not necessarily the resemblance, but the fact that we really complete each other's ideas.

I think the fact that people think that someone's going to look exactly like them is going to bring an addition to that connection, special moments to share with each other. And I guess we did it that way too, so we're the lucky ones. You're the lucky ones. Francois, what do you make of that?

I mean, what do you think, what is this about, the attraction that people have to doppelgangers? You ask me, I don't really know. I'm always surprised that, because I started this project like 24, 5 years ago, and then it became popular with the media. And then there was nothing.

And then there's always a wave of interest about the lookalike. Before the advent of the internet, the lookalike was always a man. It was always about men. And since then, it's mostly about women, like 75%, three quarters of my subject, three quarters of the emails that I get are from women. And on top of that, a part of my lookalikes are couples of men and women. In the book that I'm trying to produce, I will have about 10 or 11 couples who are men and women. Some of them are couples in real life. Some of them are just people who met.

But they look pretty much the same, but they're men and women. So this is a new thing. It is so interesting. And your story, Nathaniel and Edward, is fascinating as well. Thank you both for being here. And Francois, thank you very much. You're welcome. Francois Brunel is a photographer in Montreal.

He's now working, as you heard, on a book about doppelgangers. Nathaniel Siri and Edward Toledo were photographed for his collection of portraits back in 2003. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner, and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time, it's going to get personal. I don't know who Sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts.

On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Francois Brunel's photo project has attracted the attention of the scientific community. A geneticist in Spain tested the DNA samples of some of his subjects and found some genetic similarities between unrelated lookalikes. Some of my next guest's research includes studying the personality traits of doppelgangers. Nancy Siegel is a professor of psychology, director of the Twin Study Center at California State University in Fullerton, California. Nancy, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. You're a developmental psychologist. How did you come to study lookalikes? Well, my focus is really on twins. And one of my students alerted me to Francois Brunel's website.

And when I saw what it contained, I realized that this group of subjects was a wonderful way of testing out a particular criticism that some people have advanced against twin studies. For example, identical twins are very much alike in their personalities. But some people feel it's because people treat them alike based on their facial appearance. And I've never felt that was a reasonable explanation. Instead, I thought that identical twins are treated alike because they evoke similar responses from the people around them. So I gave a number of these doppelgangers that I obtained from Francois Brunel,

and I've been continuing this even on my own. I've gotten other pairs from the television programs, and I've gotten some that I've just found on my own, which are amazing. At any rate, I gave them personality questionnaires, self-esteem questionnaires, and a relationship, a social relationship questionnaire and i did this twice with two different types of personality forms and so i reasoned that if these unrelated lookalikes are as alike as identical twins raised apart who are their parallels you know raised apart that look alike but the identicals share all their genes in common, then if their unrelated lookalikes are as alike as the twins, then maybe the critics are right. But if the unrelated lookalikes are not alike, then my thought on this is correct.

And so what did you find? I'm just getting to that now, Matt. And what I found was that the personality similarity of the doppelgangers was zero. It was zero. Zero. Yes. And on self-esteem, it was just about zero as well. And I found that most of the doppelgangers were not closely connected at all. There were some exceptions like Edward and his lookalike, but very, very few. And the reason is that personality is in your brain, it's not in your face. And we know, as you said in the program, that there are a lot of websites

that have been sprouting up where people can submit a photograph and look for their lookalike. And I think that the popularity comes from the fact that people are envious of the twin relationship, because it's very close, it's not judgmental, there's complete understanding and acceptance. And I think that people really want that. And I suspect that the people who submit photographs to these websites are looking for that kind of connection. And I'm just afraid that they're going to be disappointed. I think in some cases, yes, they may find it. But you see, the doppelgangers from the study that you interviewed, they talked about their behavioral

similarities as the social glue that attracted them and maintained their relationship. But there is no necessary connection between how you look in your face and what your personality traits are going to be. Can I just, can I go back to that? Because one of the things that they said is that people thought that they were very much alike. Often they would be confused for each other, not because of just how they looked, but because of what people read into their personalities. So if there is zero, if your study found that, as you said, personality doesn't reside in the face and there's zero real relationship between personalities. How can what they went through be explained?

Well, I'll tell you, I heard it a little bit differently than you, Matt. I heard that people were confusing them based on their appearance, because after all, people did not know both of them at that time. They only knew one. And so it was basically the face. And so it was basically the face. My take on this is that the unrelated lookalikes, the doppelgangers, might feel a certain attraction when they meet, but as time goes by, they find that they're very, very different. That's what the majority of the pairs are telling me. And this is not just hearsay or interviews or anecdotes. These are hard scientific data that I had gathered systematically and published. What do you make of the, in the introduction, I said that a geneticist in Spain looked at the DNA samples of some of the folks that Francois was taking photos of and found genetic similarities between unrelated people. What do you make of that? Well, of course that's going to happen. I mean, look, when people both have brown eyes or blue eyes or red hair, they have the same genetic backgrounds, but it's not common through descent. It's not the same family.

So I'm not surprised. And also, the guy in Spain specifically selected the most identical pairs of the ones that he had. And he did find some genetic similarities that were related to some facial features, but he did not look at personality. He did not look at self-esteem and he did not look at the social relationships that I assessed. And he did find that, yes, smoking seemed to be similar and something to do with lifestyle very vaguely or generally defined. But I was very specific. very vaguely or generally defined. But I was very specific.

I looked at five personality traits in what people call the big five, which you think about as ocean. Openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. And that was replicated over two different questionnaires. And look, the identical twins raised apart were very, very similar. You said something interesting earlier, and I ask you this as the director of the Twin Study Center, that in some ways we're jealous that we want the connections that identical twins have.

What is that about, do you think? Well, identical twins have the closest social relationship on average. When we see identical twins who are so close and their relationships are so effortless, having been developed from a very, very young age, I think that many people look at them and are intrigued and are envious because what a luxury to have somebody who accepts you completely, who loves you completely, who will understand you completely. And I think that when people do try to get this lookalike, they're hoping that that will be the case. But again, I said that attract. It's birds of a feather who flock together. And when children develop imaginary playmates, who are they? They're people who are like themselves. People don't have imaginary friends who are different from themselves. People don't feel terribly attracted to people who are different from themselves. Now, some couples,

some friends compliment one another. One may be more extroverted, one may be more introverted. They may have different talents and traits. But nevertheless, it's their commonalities that draw them together. I'm certain that if the two who were on today had very different affinities, very different inclinations and talents, they wouldn't be where they are today. But it was those behavioral similarities that drew them together and sustained the relationship. Do you think you have a doppelganger? Do I? Yeah. Well, let me just say to your viewers that I am a twin, but I'm a fraternal twin. Yeah, I thought you'd never ask Matt. I'm a fraternal twin with a sister who does not look like me and does not act like me.

And we have similar values. We're very close sisters, but we're closest just because we share a family history. Now, when I was growing up, I was very jealous of some of the identical twins that I saw in school or on the playground because they seemed to have a connection that I did not have. And being a twin, I was immediately attracted to twin studies because I found them so professionally informative and so personally engaging. It's a wonderful field, and having gotten involved with the doppelgangers, I'm just thrilled. It's a whole new side that I hadn't anticipated,

but one that really feeds into my field in a wonderful way. But don't you wonder whether there's somebody out there in the world who looks just like you? Well, I'll tell you, occasionally I have gotten people to tell me that, yes, there's someone out there, and a few have sent photographs, and I don't perceive the similarity in the slightest. And that's very interesting, because one of your guests said that. And when I've talked to some identical twins, they don't perceive the similarities, but yet other people do. And I think that that is the key.

When other people confuse you, to me, that is the bar for being classified as a doppelganger or as a lookalike. Nancy, it's great to speak with you. Thank you very much. My pleasure, Matt. Thank you for having me. Nancy Siegel is a professor of psychology and the director of the Twin Studies Center at California State University. Matt Calloway spoke with her in November. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.