The Current - Is there still power in a union?

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

Acclaimed documentarian Barbara Kopple turns her camera on the struggles of delivery workers in her new film "Union Town." The two-time Oscar winner made her name with "Harlan County USA," a harrowing film about a bitter coal strike in rural Kentucky. She speaks to Matt Galloway about the back-breaking and dangerous work delivery workers do, and what it would take to improve conditions.

The nation is watching Alberta, and we know it. I'm Kathleen Petty, host of West of Center. Every week I speak with the people shaping Alberta politics, from pipelines to separation, to help you understand what's going on here and why it matters to the entire country. Pull up a chair and join me, West of Center. Find us and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

This is a CBC. podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. Barbara Cople was still in her 20s when she captured a shocking scene that helped her win her first Academy Award. Gunfire in rural Kentucky. A man working for a coal company opens fire on striking miners, and as he drives past Coppull's film crew, he points his handgun right at the camera. That's Barbara, you hear yelling, don't shoot. I think they're going to shoot at us today? Shot out of show yesterday. I don't know.

You're scared. I hope not. Yeah. Ain't you? Barbara Coppill later won a second Oscar for her 1990 film American Dream. It's about a failed strike at a meatpacking plant in Minnesota. Now she's returning to the subject of labor rights in her new film. It follows efforts to improve pay and working conditions for delivery workers in New York City.

That film is called Union Town. screening as part of the Toronto International Film Festival, and the legendary Barbara Koppel joins us in studio. Good morning. Thank you. Good morning to you. What a pleasure to have you here. What is it like listening back to, I mean, you've heard it a million times,

but you're in your 20s when you made that film and faced such drama in making that film. What does it like to hear back to that? I think that I'm very strong and I had something that I had to do during that time. and during all of this time in my life. And so I was focused mainly on the job at hand rather than thinking about myself. The one clip that you played, where are they going to shoot at us today, everybody had guns. The strike breakers had guns and so did all, you know, the miners. And it could have been warfare.

And so I just wanted to, I was a little nervous that day. You were told that you had a price on your head by one of the union organizers. That's true. At the end of filming, Houston Elmore, who is one of the union organizers for the United Mind Workers of America, came over to me. And he said, you know, you had a price on your head. And I went, what? And I said, how much was it? And he said, $5,000.

And I said, is that all it was? And I said, well, why didn't you tell me? because I could have prepared myself. He said, because we didn't want you to leave. I said, I wouldn't have left. I would have, nothing could have pulled me out of here. What do you think you learned in making that film, making Harlan County USA, that you've carried with you

through the rest of your career? That standing up for the things that you believe in are the most important things that you can do. Lois Scott, who was one of the women, and she actually kept a gun in her bra. she wasn't afraid of anyone. She became a mentor to me. And I just figured, here's a woman who's willing to give up her life for what she believes in.

And so I learned so much. I learned what life and death was all about. A minor was killed by a company form in there. You know, the women took over the picket lines. It was quite incredible. In many ways, this new film, Uniontown, it feels like it's a film of our time because it's about some of the ways that workers are facing some of those similar struggles from back then now in 2026. It looks at improving, as I said, wages and working conditions for app delivery workers,

for people at Amazon, for people at UPS. What do you think the film is about? Well, not so much. I was going to talk a little bit about how the strategy has changed. And in Harlan County, it was a gun. today it's union busters and it's the police that help these huge corporations to hurt workers. If you're talking to somebody inside your warehouse about becoming part of a union at Amazon, you can get fired immediately.

And the cops do anything the corporation says. And union busters are paid $15,000 a week. and Amazon and New York just put another through another $26 million in for union busting. There's a stat in this film that 500,000 meals are brought to people's doorsteps in New York City every day through these delivery services. They are part of the fabric of our cities and our small towns right now. How would you describe what these services mean to people in terms of how we live our lives in 2026? I think that these services of people delivering either your medication, or, you know, food or huge packages that, you know, from Amazon is everything to people.

Many people can't go out or don't want to go out or, you know, just want something to come prepared. But the people who deliver them are invisible. It's as if you never see them. You never really look at them. You see, you know, a UPS truck or you see an Amazon truck or you see a guy on a bicycle. delivering and there's a silence about it. What is the cost of that invisibility? Because part of this is about the folks who are working in the warehouses,

but it's also about the people who deliver the thing. And I was saying as you came in, we've changed how we interact with those people. He used to open the door and you would get the bag of food. Now you might stick your arm out or the bag of food or whatever is left on your stoop or your front porch. And you don't even see the person. What is the cost of that?

No, usually, usually if the person, person's home and it's food, you will hand it to them. And the cost of this invisibility means that anything can happen to these workers. I mean, for example, the delivery workers on the bicycles and the motorcycles, they're not part of anything. They have to buy their bike, they have to buy their motorcycle, they have to buy their jackets and, you know, their gloves in the winter. If they get hurt, they have to pay for it, if they have to go to the hospital. And if they don't come in after two or three days, they're fired. One of those delivery people that you follow is Shelly Ann Elliston. She is a delivery driver for UPS.

Have a listen to this. The hardest thing of this job is getting up these steps and the boxes. Black egg, shoulder ache, footache. Many days I'm in pain. You know, I put that behind me, come to work, do it all over again. What do you want those of us on the other end, on the receiving end of those packages, to think about in terms of what Chellian is doing? In my dreams, if people see this film, which I hope gets out and is very wide. from not only Shelley, but also all the workers and all the stories and all the things that you see and feel in this film, I would love it if people came and walked on the picket line, sang songs about what was happening, and really tried to help these people and not think of them as being invisible. Because they're hauling a toilet up of flight of stairs or there are scenes of bike. delivery people who are riding through what looks like a lake. There's a flood or a snowstorm and

they're still delivering things in that weather. We expect that, we expect them as the person who's pushing the button on the phone. We expect that delivery to arrive no matter the weather. No matter what. And they get a little electric shocks going through their legs in the water. They have to be careful of the traffic. I mean, their lives are at stake every moment. In the film also is the death of a worker. We can go to a funeral for a delivery worker. He's 24 years old. His name is Victor Hildago.

His aunt wanted us to film so that he would never be forgotten. He had a young child and he had a wife. They were living in Mexico and he was living in New York doing this work. The nation is watching Alberta and we know it. I'm Kathleen Petty, host of West of Center. Every week I speak with the people shaping Alberta politics from pipelines to separation to help you understand what's going on here and why it matters to the entire country. Pull up a chair and join me, West of Center. Find us and follow wherever you get your podcasts.

We have seen in the 50 years since you made Harlan County, USA, a drive. This seems like a long time, but not a long time. It's still a very current film. But we've seen a real drop in union membership and influence in the United States, both in U.S. and in Canada. And one of the union organizers in Uniontown describes it as a generation of givebacks. What explains that, do you think? I think the person who did that is Antonio.

We call him Tony. And he's one of the great organizers of all times. Did you hear about the Teamsters vote? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about, my guy. We need you. Yes, sir. Appreciate that. Got one already.

Take another one and give it to a friend. All right, tell them more. Let them know we're coming. Sir, I think you can see that I am not. All right, so I have to ask you to leave the property. This is considered an Amazon property. Okay. Non-employees cannot be on this area.

This is a private property. But it does say visitors and associates are you going to leave? No, sir. It says visitors on your sign. He's an organizer at UPS and then at Amazon. They voted in the Teamsters to have a union. And he's the kind of guy that just is so smart, gets the best organizers everywhere. If something happens that's terrible to somebody, he's emotional and he cries.

If something happens, it's wonderful to somebody. He gets emotional and he cries. And the whole sense of givebacks is something that he's trying to. stop almost single-handedly. Well, why do you think unions have less power in our countries now? Well, we have to look at, you know, who's in the White House now, and a whole feeling of people that just don't understand what unionism is all about. And hopefully, if they look at this film, they will be able to really see who these people

are, what their stories are about, how hard they work, what their families are, and how they care. What is it that they don't understand? They don't understand. They're just faceless people. And they think that, you know, unions are corrupt or unions take their money. They're just not sure what it means to be part of a union. And being part of a union is so important for people. Because when you're together as a group in solidarity, you're strong. And you can make things happen. And you can stop bad things from happening to your brothers and your sisters. It's interesting. There's a scene in the film in which a UPS driver and an Amazon delivery person are in the same kind of vestibule of a building. And it speaks to in some ways a difference

between those two. You might think that they're all, delivery drivers are all the same. They're not. There's a class difference in some ways. How do you understand that class difference between the UPS delivery people and the folks are delivering for Amazon? Well, I think we look at that through a character in our film named Dexter Cox. And Dexter Cox does what they call split shift. So he'll work four hours, and then there'll be four hours between that, and he has to work again. And Dexter sleeps in his car. Dexter shows you where he urinates.

These two plastic bottles? Yes, these two plastic bottles and hopes he never has to do number two. too. And this was the job that he had to take because he got something, a piece of metal in his eye, and he's blind in one eye. And so this is what he has to do for living. But we also went with him to his garden. And he was growing melons and all sorts of other things. And he just walked around, ate some of it raw, and just said, when I'm here in my garden, I feel like a millionaire. What does that scene tell you? It tells me that he has beauty and he has joy in his life and it doesn't take a lot, but he sees beautiful things.

Companies like UPS are delivering fewer packages now because of the influence and then the prominence of Amazon but also other delivery services. And people describe Amazon in some ways as the elephant in the room in this conversation. What does that mean to you? Amazon, it was interesting. We were at the Venice Film Festival, and Amazon signed their first union contract with Italian workers, and 12 of them came to our film. And they sat behind us and cheered because they said that's exactly what we were going through

before we got Amazon to sign. Amazon has never hires anybody in the States. They're independent workers. I was going to say explain, because that's a huge part of this film. Explain what that means. Do we see the trucks that are driving around or a bike or what have? And it says Amazon on the side of it. They're independent workers.

They're not a part of Amazon, although Amazon gives them clothes. Amazon gives them a truck. Amazon pays them, but you never see the name Amazon on their checks. So they're on their own. and Amazon can fire them at will. They have enormous control, despite the fact that they are technically not employees of Amazon. Total control of these people. And so what is the fight like to try, we've seen examples of this,

but what is the fight like to try to give those workers some agency and some control? The Teamsters are working with them to organize and to keep the pressure on Amazon to go to the bargaining table and give them. the things that they need, which is a living wage, which is safety in the plant, which is air conditioning. It gets to be up to 100 degrees inside the plant. So these are all the issues, very life-giving issues that they're fighting for. One of the things that the film shows is just how challenging it is to improve those conditions. At Amazon or for people who work for DoorDash or what have you, there's a protest outside of the Amazon headquarters. And the

company refuses to even accept a letter to the VP of safety. You hear this from one worker at that protest. This makes me not want to fight because I love this feeling. Like I just think it's for nothing. They don't fear. Is she right? I think people get very frightened, but these are people on the front line. And I think that there's so much hope and change in this film that you You realize that if they keep going and they will keep fighting, that things are going to be much better. How much of that is on us, though, as the consumers? Like, have we created the conditions such that they are pushing a big heavy stone up a hill? I think that probably many of us have, but I think that the consumers can change that.

And the consumers can fight along with them for the right to have the union of their choice and to have a livable wage. Part of this is also about, and again, the way that you've documented this over time, union activists have been jailed, they've been shot at face-down violence. Do you think a new generation of labor activists have the stomach for that? And I'm not suggesting that that's necessarily what's going to happen, but it's a hell of a fight. I think that young people are going to fight like hell to get their union in. Maybe their father worked in the plant or their grandfather. worked in the plant. And they're out there and they're strong. I had a screening with just young people who were coming out of college and trying to figure out what they wanted to do in their

lives. And so many of them will be going into these warehouses and become drivers. And they had fire in their bellies. It was no way to stop them. That's what people call the gig economy in some ways. This is the lot that young people will find themselves in because a traditional economy has been disrupted by any number of things, including technology. Do you worry about those young people going into that economy? I do worry about it. And I also worry about what could happen as far as having robots taking over. Many of the warehouses have closed and they're using robots. There's a remarkable scene in which she's the CEO of UPS. Yes. And she's on a TV show. Carol Tomay is her name. What does she say about robots?

She says she loves robots. Robots don't get sick. Robots don't have an attitude. Robots do exactly what we want. I love the robots, she says. And she says, but I want to figure out a way to so that the workers can work. She's kind of shameless in saying that, right? As she's talking about her workers. That she wants them, that she's happier if the robots aren't going to complain. Well, it's sort of wonderful because if you look at Jeff Bezos and some of the other people,

they've been so taught not to say anything. She says everything that she's feeling. It's a gift for a documentary filmmaker. She's an exquisite character who really lets it out. When they were talking about negotiations, Carol Tamey was on an economy talk show. And she said, you know, so the woman said, so you're working with the teamsters. And she sort of did a girlish little shrug.

And she said, yes, if you come to my office, you'll see a book about warfare. The art of war. The art of war. She said, if you come into my conference room, you'll see boxing gloves and a football helmet. She just lets it all out so we, the viewers, can really see what's going on in her mind. Do you want people to stop using these services? No. Then it would put these people out of business.

These services are very important and they're life-saving for people. And so if not stopping using them, what? Getting the right to have a union and getting, you know, a good contract with livable wage and safety. What is our role? I mean, I think for people who might be using them and then, you know, ordering from their phone and what have you. What is our role in that? We might feel disconnected from that larger kind of issue or struggle. I think our role is in whatever we do, whether we're one of the most incredible radio

interviewers in all of Canada or a writer or a singer or whatever you do in your work, the more that you talk about it, the more that you educate people and let them see and feel what's happening. That's our obligation. and that's what we should do. You've been making films for a long time. Can I go back to that idea of that idea of purpose that you had? Yes.

That's what you wanted to do, right? I still want to do it. I've made over 50 films and love every minute of it. Enjoy being with people, hearing their stories, seeing how brave and how beautiful so many of them are. And it just makes me stronger and it makes me want to do it more and more. What a remarkable life. that you've had. I'm so lucky. Long may it continue. What a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much for coming in. Thank you for having me. Barbara Cople, two-time Academy Award winner was with me

in our Toronto studio. Her latest documentary, Uniontown is screening as part of the Toronto International Film Festival. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca slash podcasts.