The Current - It’s complicated for Canadian-US dual citizens right now

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

It’s the Fourth of July, but for some people with ties to both Canada and the U.S., the day feels more conflicted than celebratory. As relations between the two countries sour, dual citizens and cross-border families are finding it harder to navigate their identities. We speak to three people who share what it’s like to live between two countries that no longer feel so friendly. Sarah Doué grew up in Texas and now lives in Nova Scotia and has considered giving up her U.S. citizenship. Bryce McNeil says being Canadian in America has never felt more complicated. And Georganne Burke is planning on moving back to Florida, saying a rise in anti-American sentiment has made her feel unwelcome in Canada.

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It's the perfect Canadian getaway. To quote William Shatner, who got his start in Stratford, every Canadian should make the pilgrimage to Stratford. Start your next adventure at StratfordFestival.ca. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is the Current Podcast. Today is the 4th of July, but well, millions of Americans are reveling in Independence Day barbecues and fireworks. There are some who are thinking a little differently about their national identity. Thousands of people enjoy dual US and Canadian citizenship or are permanent

residents. But with our two countries' friendship on the rocks, many feel caught in the crossfire. Joining me now are three people deeply connected to both countries. Sarah Douay was born in Canada, moved to Texas at eight months old and lived there until she was 17. She's now living in Sydney, Nova Scotia. Bryce McNeil was also born in Canada, but has been a permanent resident and green card holder in the US since 2013. He's in Kentucky and George Ann Burke is a dual citizen living in Ottawa. She moved to Canada from the US almost 40 years ago. Good morning to you all.

Good morning. Sarah, Sarah, let me start with you. Canada Day was earlier in the week. Today is the 4th of July. What did those days mean to you this year compared to years past? Canada Day was definitely more, I think, important this year. I think Canada as a whole, we did it a lot bigger to show, you know, our patriotism this year with everything going on with our neighbors to the south. And as far as 4th of July, especially this year is just

another Friday. Just another Friday. Just another Friday, I'll go to work and just continue about my normal day. Bryce, you're in the US. How are you thinking about the two national days this year? Canada Day is so interesting when you live in the United States because it's still the beginning of the fiscal year In the workday of so many people's lives So not only is it not a big deal here, but it's like actually like kind of a super hyper workday But I did take it as easy as I could and get a reflected and took a little picture with my daughters and the flag

And everything like that. It was great I've kind of been you know Staying in the house a little bit this week and kind of trying to downplay all the American flags that are surrounding me. But it's kind of hard to forget because you'll go to bed at night before the fourth edition of fireworks going on in the neighborhood all around. And it's nothing unusual because it is the fourth, but this year it's sort of a hit different to use the cliched expression. George, and what's going through your mind this week with the two holidays?

Well, I actually celebrated both of them on the first Canada Day. I went to my friend's place. She lives in a condo high up and we could see the fireworks from there. And tomorrow, or today I should say, today's the fourth, I will be going to the Ambassador's residence here in Ottawa. I celebrate both holidays, and I enjoyed them both. Pete Slauson Let's dig into it a little bit more. Bryce,

what does it mean to be a Canadian living in the US as a permanent resident right now? You talk about being there with all the fireworks and American flags. What's it like as a permanent resident? Bryce Fierro President of the United States of America It feels a little strange even though I've done it many years. I should point out, even before I was a permanent resident, I lived here a while as a student, so it's been 20 plus years. There's this overwhelming sense of patriotism that is overcoming everybody and you're just kind of standing there nodding. And I think especially when you're Canadian, I guess you quote unquote, you blend a little more. So people are looking

around at you like oh you're also flowing with patriotism right? Not quite. You know it just seems so silly that we have all of these heightened and I think unnecessary political tensions going on that makes makes you have to think about all these different things but I guess I should also point out just given the state of the political climate of the United States Separate from the relationship of Canada makes it, you know kind of bittersweet for a lot of people I think there's a lot of people even if there weren't any disagreements going on between the United States and Canada They just generally there, you know have a lot of strong feelings about the direction of the United States now that

It makes it a little bit hard to be hooray, hurrah, you know. So, you know, I feel a bit, I don't want to say conflicted is the word, but it's like, you know, for me, it's just, it's kind of more of an ordinary day than it normally would be. Do you have conversations with your friends and neighbors or co-workers about being Canadian? One thing that Canadians in the United States will tell you is that they have a hard time shutting up about being Canadian. Although it is funny because people that I work with, I mention it all the time, colleagues that I maybe only interact with a few times a year at conventions because I'm affiliated

with a number of organizations, you go and then they'll be surprised to find out that you're Canadian. And then I was at a very big convention this February, right when Justin Trudeau was giving a very big press conference and we had this big ceremony that was going on. And, you know, everybody's paying attention to the ceremony and I'm glued to my phone because Justin Trudeau is giving this really important speech.

And at some point during this convention, I mentioned something about like, you know, in one day I'd like, you know, to go back home to Canada. And, you know, so I can't, you know, do this thing I'm doing for the group anymore. And every, you know, a people who are nodding and others like what you're Canadian but you know in terms of the people I interact without a day-to-day basis it's kind of hard to forget I'm Canadian and so I'm

surprised at how little they ask me about the current political situation they they don't really raise it as a topic but they're just you know they can't not know because you know I kind of have a big you know I've got big Cape Breton and Canadian flags in my office cubicle and everything like that It's kind of hard to forget if you interact with one once George and you've lived in Canada for a long time now What what role does your American citizenship play in in how you see yourself? Well, so I was born in the United States. I didn't move here until I was very much an adult with six children. Um, and so therefore I would say that I was. Immersed in my American identity first.

Okay. But I've lived here 38 years and I've, and I've been very active, both politically and in government, worked for government for a while, worked in politics for many, many years, and took my citizenship at a point, even though we weren't sure if we were staying, but once we decided we were, I was doing some work in politics. I said, well, how can I talk to people and suggest they should be voting when I can't vote myself? So I took my citizenship and have been involved, and that was 25 years ago, so I've been involved ever since, and in pushing forward the Canadian life and Canadian agenda and things that I thought were good for Canada.

So I've been very immersed in both worlds. And I don't really feel the, or I didn't feel, I should say up until this past year, the conflict, any conflict between being Canadian and American, people didn't feel, I should say, up until this past year, the conflict, any conflict between being Canadian and American, people didn't seem to mind one way or the other until this past year. Do you consider yourself more Canadian or American? Or can you make a distinction there? Well, up until recently, I would have said I'm both. But I will tell you that the attitude of some people here in Canada that I interact with, and I because of where I live and what I do, I tend to interact more on the political side of it. So I probably hear more than the average

person. It's pushed me back towards my American identity, not by my choice, but by theirs. Why? Well, because obviously there are some, the tensions that were being discussed, I think are ridiculous to have to come into personal relationships, but they do. I've had people say to me, I'm never traveling to the United States again. Why? Well, then they would launch into a tirade

about the government and the people there. And I'm like, well, I'm an American. Like, why are you saying that to me? Well, you know, not really you. It's, it's, you know, it's the bad man orange. It's the bad government. It's the attitude of American people. They don't like us. I've tried to convince people that Americans and one of your other panelists alluded to it, Americans don't sit around thinking about Canada all day. They literally, maybe it comes up 10 minutes a year and only because somebody said, hey, I'm from Canada or they say, oh, I'm going back to visit my family. Where's your family in Canada? Oh, you're from Canada? That's it. And frankly, most of the interactions that I have with people,

because I'm down in Florida a great deal, are extremely friendly. They actually love Canadians. There's Canadians living in the development that I live in in Florida. People who have moved down there full time, some people who are just down there six months a year. And lots of Floridians who depend economically on Canadians. Sarah, what about you? What does your American citizenship mean to you? I'm a little conflicted about it. I mean, I spent the good majority of my life in the US in the panhandle of Texas. So, you know, prior to moving back to Canada and even through my university life when I first moved back in 2007, I would always just say I was Texan. But now, I very much identify as Canadian and when I travel, I

travel Canadian more so than anything else because I find it easier to travel. I find it more accepted that way. Yeah, I've definitely embraced being Canadian and that identity a whole lot more. We're all looking for great places to visit in Canada. One of my favorites is the Stratford Festival. The theater is truly of the highest caliber, and there's so much selection. They have 11 large-scale shows on stage, and trust me, whatever is on when you're there will be exceptional.

People always think Shakespeare when they think of Stratford, but it's so much more. Broadway musicals, family shows, classic comedy, and drama. Whether it's Robert LaPage's Macbeth or Donna Fior's Annie, you will be blown away. It's the perfect Canadian getaway. To quote William Shatner, who got his start in Stratford, every Canadian should make the pilgrimage to Stratford. Start your next adventure at

StratfordFestival.ca. This message comes from Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on a Viking longship with thoughtful service, destination-focused dining, and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. With a variety of voyages and sailing dates to choose from, now is the time to explore Europe's waterways. Learn more at Viking.com. I understand you contemplated getting rid of your American citizenship. I did, I did. You know, when this president came back into power this time around, I had a serious contemplation

about, you know, no longer holding that citizenship. It turned out to be a lot more of a, you know, in-depth process that would cost me more money than I have, you know, available currently to do that. So I just sort of decided that I'll hold on and I'll see what happens, and I'll see what happens, you know, as the four years go on, and I'll make a decision from there. But you're going to use the Canadian passport when you go traveling. Absolutely. I've traveled in Asia. I lived in South Korea for four and a half years and did traveling while I was there to different

countries like Japan. It's so much easier to travel Canadian and people abroad are so much more welcoming, I find. You get in a taxi in Tokyo and the guy goes, American? And you go, no, I'm Canadian. And he, you know, becomes so much more welcoming and tries to chat with you and things like that. So, you know. Bryce, you said you've been in the United States for quite a while now. There hasn't

been tension like this between Canada and the US in a long time. When the trade war began, what went through your mind? You've got deep roots in both countries. Gosh, it was, you know, it goes all the way back, honestly, to even election night, even before the discussions about trade. You know, I'm a late-in-life father, and I just found out that my second daughter was also going to be a girl, I'm a girl dad, the night of the election. And my wife and I just having this look at each other like, oh, it's a girl. And then also this kind of like, oh, but also look at the political situation. And we fast track the plan to get back to Canada one day. It's kind of like an unspoken, you know, kind of silence there for a little bit. And then of course, I guess kind of because we were

able to kind of predict a lot of the tensions that were about to happen. She's American, your wife, though. She is American and not just American, like, you know, proudly American, very much a nut for, you know, political history in America. Her father was involved in state politics, and even national politics to a degree. And so, you know, for her, I think she's going through this whole feeling of not being particularly happy with her country right now and wondering what it stands for. And I'm, you know, also like, well, you know, proud Canadian living here who's, and I'm very, I want to point out, like, I identify as Canadian, I'll always be Canadian, but

I'm very, very happy with what the life in the United States has provided for me. So there's always a sense of I'm not trying to feel or try to communicate a sense of ungratefulness, but at the core of it, you know, I think, you know, your upbringing is very hard to shake and I don't even think about it as like choosing to be Canadian. I just am, but it just is. George, what about you? What went through your mind when the trade war started? Well, first of all, as I said, I'm kind of political and I look at these things from

a different lens than I would say a citizen who isn't involved. And I tend to minimize a lot of the rhetoric that became the boiling point for a lot of people. I said, you need to stop listening to that stuff and just pay attention to what actually gets done. And that's not what happened. As a matter of fact... When people got upset about President Trump calling Canada the 51st state, what did you think? Well, first of all, I publicly said, and I am fairly public on social media, I publicly said I wildly oppose this. I think it's a terrible idea. And he was actually, if you look back to the history of how that all happened, he was kidding.

But then he found out that Canadians were hypersensitive, I think that's the understatement of the century, to that comment. And he therefore, because this is his behavior and something, one thing I don't like about him is this, is that he picks up a scab when he sees it and he just picks up picks and trolls and people got madder and madder about it. In fact, that is what caused the deciding factor for me to leave. I received a series of emails as a result of an interview that I did with Canadian press in which it is someone assumed that I was saying I supported the 51st state I was never even asked about that in the interview but other people were I don't support it I had a series of

emails very unpleasant emails which I ignored I've had that happen before but the last one was a death threat hmm I said you know what if people are this insane here that they think it it's okay to send me. I'm relatively insignificant. I mean, I don't, you know, I'm not the prime minister. I'm not an M member of parliament. I'm not a staffer on the Hill. I just, I have my, I've evolved, but not like in any way that's significant enough for people to see me as a threat that they would send me a death threat. Well, it's with the police now. But I said, you know what?

I'm going to go back where I won't have that happen to me. And Florida is a very special place in the United States for people like me who want peace, order and good government like Canada promises, but we actually get it there. It is a much better environment. People can speak their minds freely. They can speak their minds freely. They can protest freely as long as it's done legally. But this antagonism and hatred that we're seeing right now

in the streets in Canada and in places in the United States doesn't happen there. So I'm going back there. Bryce, obviously George Anstman feeling the elbows up a little bit. I wonder, what do you think Canadians might misunderstand about Americans right now? Well, I do think that there's a good point to be made about the fact that most Americans don't really think, I think it doesn't track,

and it's a very uneven relationship, and it's always kind of been that way. I remember, I think that's a famous quote about Pier Trudeau where he said something like, oh, like, living next to you is like living next to an elephant and every twitch and grunt you do affects us, whereas our twitches and grunts don't necessarily register there. I do think, and it would take too long to get into, but there's, I think, also just general tension, again, about what is going on in the United States, period, even above and beyond the elbows up. Maybe Florida is an interesting place because we see a lot of what's going on in terms of construction of detainment camps and things like that, and there's a lot of people that are not particularly pleased

about that on both sides of the border. There's a lot of discussion on humanitarian issues, and it's very partisan and very heated. I think it would probably be heated even if there wasn't that extra layer but I think there's also this idea of you know the president of the United States could be taken seriously when they speak even if they're not speaking seriously and so obviously you know the 51st state thing and it being kind of equipped he's the president he needs to be responsible and he needs to speak responsibly and you know, even if he was kidding

You know, he should get in front of a microphone and say hey, I was quipping now Of course, he won't in his you know, other panelists pointed out like that's just in his personality I think a lot of Canadians are not so much disappointed in that because they kind of know that's him and that's his personality. They're waiting for other important political figures to intervene and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, no. And they're not seeing it to the degree that they'd like to. And I guess the one thing I will point out is there was a couple of articles that happened that what got me mad as a Canadian wasn't so much any of what Trump said. There was a couple of articles about different left leaning or centrist politicians saying things like, actually, you know what, it wouldn't be bad if Canada was the 51st state. You know, then we'd have

more votes for the Democrats than the Senate. And that just got me. That got me seeing red because like, we are not your little bobble. All right. We are an independent nation treated as treat us as such. Sarah, a second thing going to jump in, Bryce, and leave the last question to Sarah here. What do we lose when Canadians and Americans aren't understanding one another anymore? I mean, we're allies, we're neighbors, we coexist with one another, we've always been there to help each other. So I think we lose that. We lose that community.

And I've said in previous interviews too, it's not all Americans, so we don't hold it against all of them because not all of them voted for President Trump. But I think we just lose the community and we lose, you know, that we're allies, we're neighbors. All right, lots to think about. Thank you. We're going to have to leave it there. Thank you for sharing your time with us today. Thank you. Thank you.

Sarah Douay and Georgianne Burke are dual citizens living in Canada and Bryce McNeil is a permanent resident and green card holder in the United States. You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.