The Current - Liberals were out of touch after pandemic: Karina Gould

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

Liberal leadership candidate Karina Gould says her government was out of touch with Canadians who were struggling in the aftermath of the pandemic. She talks to Matt Galloway about what responsibility she bears as a cabinet minister at that time, and how she'd rebuild trust if she becomes party leader.

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This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, it's Matt here. Thanks for listening to The Current wherever you're getting this podcast. Before we get to today's show, wonder if I might ask a favor of you if you could hit the follow button on whatever app you're using. There is a lot of news that's out there these days. We're trying to help you make sense of it all and give you a bit of a break from some

of that news too. So if you already follow the program, thank you. And if you have done that, maybe you could leave us a rating or review as well. The whole point of this is to let more listeners find our show and perhaps find some of that information that's so important in these really tricky times. So thanks for all of that. Appreciate it. And on to today's show. In the midst of all the chaos coming from south of the border, you may remember there

is news here in this country as well. One of the new stories that's happening is a liberal leadership race. And one of the people hoping to be the next prime minister is in our studio with me right now. She has been the member of parliament for Burlington, Ontario since 2015, has held several cabinet posts, including government house leader, Karina Gould, is with me now.

Good morning. Good morning, Matt. Thanks for being here. Glad to be here. Why do you want this job? I want this job because I care so much about this country and I care so much about Canadians and I want to protect the things that are working and I want to fix the things that aren't.

We'll talk about some of the things that may or may not be working. This is a moment in this country. We were talking earlier about the sense of nationalism Canadian pride that's unfolding and it comes because you have the United States and the President of the United States threatening tariffs, but also threatening to take over this country, that we should become the 51st state. Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister, has had a couple of long calls with Donald Trump. If you were the leader of the party and the Prime Minister, how do you picture yourself handling Donald Trump? Well, so I would say that I have 10 years of experience in Parliament working with people

with whom I don't necessarily see eye to eye. I'm known as a bridge builder. I'm known as somebody who can get things done in parliament and in this country. When I was minister of families, I negotiated the childcare agreements with many conservative provinces and I am able to both stand up for the values that are important for us as a country, but also to find areas of common ground where we can work together. And so when it comes to Donald Trump, I know that I can stand very strongly for Canada

and what matters to us as Canadians, but I can also find ways where we can work together. And that's something that I bring to the table. You think that's possible? I mean, he's been the president for two weeks, and in addition to threatening tariffs that could clobber the economy, keeps talking about how we would be better off if we were

part of the United States. Do you think that you could actually negotiate with somebody like Donald Trump, or at the very least, find some common ground? Yeah, I do. And I think that's really important. I think that what we saw over the past weekend, and you talked about it, Matt, is that, look,

he puts out wild things. I mean, that's his negotiating style. He tries to go to the most extreme point, but then ultimately, you know, Canada didn't back down. Canada was very strong. Canadians were extraordinarily strong. And, you know, where we are now is a reprieve, if you will, for 30 days, but there's a huge opportunity for us as a country over these next 30 days to demonstrate to the president that we're not gonna back down, but that we can also find ways to work together on the issues that matter to him.

And so if this is about the fentanyl crisis, if this is about the border, we can absolutely work together on these things because there are things that matters to Canadians as well. There are too many people in this country who have lost loved ones as a result of the opioid crisis. We care about that as well. There are too many illegal guns coming

in from south of the border. We can work on these things together, but we're not going to compromise our sovereignty and we're not going to compromise who we are as Canadians. In the meantime, there's a leadership vacuum in this country right now, while we're facing this crisis from the United States, should we, we have parliament actually in play?

Should parliament be recalled? Well, the government has all of the tools necessary to respond in this period of time. But do you believe that parliament should be recalled so that there can be a robust debate on how those tools are used and some oversight as to how the government is acting? Well, I think that we are having a robust

conversation in Canada about this, but what we need more than anything is unity right now. And what we have seen, maybe with the exception of Pierre Poliev, but every other leader in this country come together, regardless of political stripe. I mean, we saw Danielle Smith originally be offside, but she's even come on board as the Team Canada approach and Canadians more than anything. I mean, like I'm so proud of how Canadians have put their differences aside and stood together and recognize that this is the time to be united and

to show a united front when it comes to Donald Trump. So we don't need Parliament to be sitting in this moment. Not in this moment. Not in this moment. You said the Canadians have lost trust in your party. Where do you see the mistakes that your party has made in terms of that trust evaporating? Yeah, so I've reflected on this a lot over the past little while, but when I think about the moment where I think that that trust really was broken is at the end of the pandemic when we had come out and had, you know, a really good response to the pandemic. Canada did

well despite everything that happened. Um, but when inflation was really starting to get out of control and Canadians were kind of screaming at us as a government saying, Hey, like things haven't gone back to normal. We can't afford our groceries. Our mortgage rates are going out of control.

Our rent prices are increasing. Like we need additional help. We need you to be there for us. And as a government, we kind of said like, hey, look at how great we did on the pandemic. You should be really happy with what we did. And the reflection that I have is that like after World War II when Winston Churchill won the war,

he lost the next election because he was focused on the past and not on the future. Can I just stop you there? I mean, how is it possible that a government does not realize that people are struggling, that people can't afford to pay their rent, that people can't afford to buy the food that they, how is that a government that's been in power for nine years, how is it possible? Because I think we as a government, and I put this collectively, and I put this collectively, were so focused on the response to the pandemic, and maybe a bit exhausted as well by that, like many Canadians,

that, you know, and I would also say that the pandemic took people further away from each other. People said that it's a matter of the government being out of touch. I mean, you have parliamentarians who, they're not worried about rent, they own their homes. They're not worried about, you know, their job disappearing because they're in extensively secure jobs. Is that, do you think that the government was out of touch? I think we were, and I'm not afraid to admit that. And I think that's actually a really important thing to recognize, is that eventually we

got there as a government, but I think it took too long. And I think that we needed to do a better job of hearing people. And one of the things that I am different, is different about me, is that I'm not afraid to admit when we made a mistake and to say, actually, we need to do better here. And one of the things that I bring to the table is, I am a grassroots politician.

I'm somebody who listens. I'm somebody who wants to bring those ideas and solutions forward. And when I think about that moment, that's one that I think was really important. And then I also think for listeners here in the GTA, and I feel it and was certainly something that I was raising in Ottawa, when it comes to things like auto theft or home invasions or gun crime, you know, there's a big responsibility for the provincial government here, but again, as a federal government, I don't think we acted fast enough and I think there are things that

we could have done. So there are a few moments, particularly in the past two years, where I just don't think we responded quickly enough. And I think it's fair for Canadians to have said that, you know, they felt like we weren't listening because we were so focused on kind of what we had already accomplished and not what Canadians were going

through in that moment. And that's something that I'm very cognizant of. I'm Sarah Trelevin, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

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You stood up and defended the prime minister's policies. You were the one who delivered the fall economic statement that Christy Freeland resigned over, saying that it was full of costly political gimmicks. Why should people think that you're different? Well, because I do listen to people and again, I'm not afraid to admit where we went wrong and to make those changes. And that's something that I think is really important. Look, we've all been in jobs where you have to do things that you don't necessarily agree with. Is that what it was? It was about kind of doing the job?

Well, part of my job as government house leader was to defend the government. And I'm not going to say that that wasn't my job, right? Like I'm not going to lie to Canadians. I'm going to be honest with them. But in cabinet, you have robust discussions and part of cabinet solidarity is you have those discussions at the cabinet table and then

you go out with a unified position. But now I have an opportunity as a leadership candidate to talk about my vision for the country and to share what I'm hearing from Canadians and to demonstrate to them that I'm listening and willing to make the changes that need to be made. Can I just ask you one final question on this, which is just about cynicism and how you avoid that, but also whether you worry about it. One of the things when the prime minister talked about why he was resigning, he was asked about his greatest regret and he said it was electoral reform.

There are parts of this country where you could power like a small city on the eye rolls from people when he said that he regretted electoral reform. This was a huge promise that he made, backed off that promise, didn't even come out and say that he was backing from the promise. You were the one who had to come out and say this government is not moving forward

with the thing that we promised on. Do you understand why that could lead to people being cynical about politics? It was called one of the most cynical displays of self-serving politics seen in this country. Do you understand why that could lead to cynicism? Yeah, I do. Because that's really corrosive cynicism, right? It is, and it is one of the, I think you're bang on in terms of the corrosiveness, and

it's actually one of the things that Piropoliev is capitalizing on because he's banking on people being turned off of politics and staying home and not voting because that's how he's going to win the next election. Well, he's got a lot of people who say that they're going to vote for him. And so, but what we, what we as liberals have to do, and this is where I think it was really

important for me to come out and acknowledge the fact that we've lost trust of Canadians because we have to rebuild that trust and we have to re-earn it. And part of that for me is I'm an authentic person, I'm going to tell you how it is, and I have an opportunity to do that now. And what I'm really excited about, Matt, is the conversations that I'm having with Canadians across the country who are looking for a hopeful perspective, they're looking for optimism, they're looking for the possibility that we can unleash in this country for the future.

And we have Pierre Poliev who's selling his own version of hope, but it's not one that is inclusive, it's not one that is optimistic and is not one that's positive. And yet it's one that people are buying. Because people are frustrated right now, right? And what he's doing is he's taking their frustrations

and he's taking their frustrations and he's taking their anger and he's holding a mirror and reflecting it back to them. But he's not offering them solutions. What he's offering is actually, and he's not really talking about it because he does have a hidden agenda. And if he were to actually share with Canadians. He has a hidden agenda.

Absolutely. What is the evidence that there's a hidden agenda? Because what he talks about is how he's going to make massive cuts, how he's going to change who we are as Canadians and the things that we care about. And he doesn't want Canadians to know what that looks like because when he talks about

payroll taxes, for example, that's our employment insurance program, that's the Canada pension plan, that's old age security. And those are programs that Canadians rely on. Now, I think that we have to modernize our social benefits program, make it fit for purpose for the 21st century, but we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And I'm very concerned about what he's not telling Canadians because what his objective has been, and he told this to Jordan Peterson a couple of weeks ago, is that he hasn't changed his ideas about what he thinks is necessary for Canada since he was 14 years old. And, you know, I don't know about you, but I think it's important for everybody

to have their ideas evolve. And the trickle-down economics, the ideas of the 80s and 90s, those aren't things that are going to help Canadians in 2025. You've talked about cutting a point off the GST for a year. economics, the ideas of the 80s and 90s, those aren't things that are going to help Canadians in 2025. You've talked about cutting a point off the GST for a year. You've talked about not scrapping the carbon tax, but looking at kind of how to reform

it. What would be the country that you would, if you're worried about what Mr. Poliev is going to present, what is the vision of the country that you're presenting? What is the place that you see? I want the same thing for Canadians and their families that I want for my family. I want Canadians to be safe and feel safe in their homes, in their communities. I want them to have a good job where

they don't have to worry about paying for bills and groceries, where they can afford their mortgage and afford their rent. I want them to breathe clean air and drink clean water, and I want to ensure that they have access to healthcare at the time when they need it. I think that Canada is the greatest country in the world, and I think the promise of Canada is what attracts so many people here and what has made this country unique. But we have to make sure that we fulfill that promise of Canada. And so for me, that looks like ensuring that we have a fair and just society

where people have the opportunity to succeed and to be prosperous. And it's one that I think is possible, and it's one that I think we should continue to work towards. Is it possible for the liberals to deliver that? Do you think, I mean, if you trust public opinion polling, the conservatives are miles ahead, and that this could be an historic defeat for the Liberal Party? Yeah, look, I'm an optimist and I think you have to be optimistic. But you're also a realist.

I'm also a realist. I have, I am. But you have to be optimistic, I think, to be in this job because you have to believe that it is possible. And I think that this leadership race offers the Liberal Party of Canada a tremendous opportunity to reconnect with Canadians across the country. And one of the things that I believe very strongly is that we have to listen more to our membership.

I think that when our liberal members across the country provide their policy ideas, we have those great debates. They come up with the next big idea for the country. I believe in our democracy. I believe in our citizens' participation in this. And, you know, we have a chance to really redefine who we are and what Canadians want and demonstrate to them that we're listening and anything can happen in an election, you

know? Like when I ran in 2015 for the first time in Burlington, everybody thought that it was a long shot because Burlington is traditionally a conservative community, but I beat the odds. I knocked on thousands of doors, I listened to people. Through that, I actually became less partisan because I understood where people were coming from. And I think this is the shot that we have right now for Canadians to give us another look and to say that we're a real option and possibility in the next election.

Queen of Gould, good to have you here. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me, Matt. Queen of Gould is a candidate for the leader of the Liberal Party of Canada. We are hoping to speak with all of the leading candidates in that race in the weeks ahead.