The Current - Manitoba nurses put hospitals on "grey list" due to violence

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

Manitoba nurses are taking the unique step of voting to 'grey list' two hospitals in that province.  Following repeated calls for help dealing with physical violence in the workplace, nurses at the Health Sciences Centre in Winnipeg and the Thompson General Hospital in northern Manitoba say they've had enough.  Find out what that designation means and why it's caught the attention of nurses across the country.

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Donate at lovescarbro.cairbo. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway, and this is the current podcast. When I go to work each day, I do feel scared. There's part of me that feels intimidated to walk into that building. I'm aware of nurses that currently are off work because of the violence that they've experienced. That's the voice of a Winnipeg nurse who works at the Health Sciences Center in that city. We've agreed not to name her because she fears being represented.

reprimanded by her employer for speaking out. I've seen axes. I've seen hammers that have come in. I've seen pool balls in socks that have been taken from people, machete knives. I think I've seen it all. During more than a decade on the job, she says she's been threatened and punched while caring for patients,

but she says that is not the worst of it. Like I feel like it should be when I was attacked that that's the hardest time. But it's actually when you see your other coworkers slapped across the face, punched, spit at, screamed at, and you're screaming for help and everybody starts running towards the room. And that is absolutely terrifying to witness it.

There's something almost worse about seeing it happen to somebody that you care about and work side by side with than it happening directly to you. In August, this nurse, this nurse, nurse and many of her colleagues voted to put their hospital on what's known as the gray list. It's a designation advising nurses against taking jobs or extra shifts because of an unsafe workplace. What was the breaking point for the gray list coming to fruition was the sexual assaults that happened on campus. It was the fact that nobody told us that there was a perpetrator out on the streets.

I was working that shift. I walked out to my car at midnight. after the assault had happened, nobody had been caught. I wasn't warned that there was somebody possibly still out there. And I went to my car and I just drove home and I found out the next morning. And it was from the news that there was a sexual assault in the tunnels at Health Science Center on a nurse. And then when I opened my work emails, they called it inappropriate touching and groping. Now, nurses at a second hospital in the province, this time Thompson General in northern Manitoba, have also voted in favor of gray listing their facility. Darlene Jackson is president of the Manitoba Nurses Union and she is in our Winnipeg studio.

Darlene, good morning. Good morning. When you hear that nurse talk about what she has gone through, what would you like to tell her? I want to tell her, I'm sorry. I want to tell her that I apologize that these things are how. happening to her and that how proud I am of the health sciences nurses for making a stand and saying this is not acceptable and we're not going to take it anymore. She talked about a range of things that have happened to her and that she has seen nurses

being slapped across the face and weapons being brought in, but also talked about a sexual assault, being in many ways the tipping point that prompted her support for a vote to the gray list. What more do you know about that? You know, I speak about nurses all the time, and it was a nurse that was actually sexually assaulted, but it could have been anyone. It could have been a patient going to Tim's for a coffee. It could have been a family member. It could have been anyone in those tunnels that was sexually assaulted. And I think what really upset nurses more than anything was the fact that the employer did not alert them to the fact that this had happened in the facility.

And staff were left in the building on shift using those tunnels. And visitors were using those tunnels. And I think that was what angered the nurses more than anything was the fact that it was completely downplayed. And people were left at risk in that facility for 13 hours. What is going on in these hospitals in Winnipeg and Thompson? We heard from that nurse, and you've said this as well, that nurses are scared to go to work.

Well, we are seeing, you know, definitely an increase in use of drugs and alcohol and chemicals. We're seeing that. You know, the city is really in crisis when it comes to that. But we're seeing it all across the province. And it almost seems that since COVID, it almost feels like we've lost our moral context. Like it seems so easy to get behind a keyboard and, you know, write something horrible on, you know, social media, not identifying yourself. And it seems like it's absolutely okay to yell or shout at a nurse, to slap a nurse.

I just feel like we've lost our moral compass, and I don't know why that's happened, but it is certainly escalated since COVID. And so given that, you've said that the gray listing is in many ways a last resort for nurses. What happens when you gray list a facility? Well, when we gray list a facility, it's basically, it's a last step that the union can take to try and achieve a safer workplace for both staff but also for patients. The work site comes to our board of directors and requests permission to graylist. The board of directors has to give permission in order for the worksite or the local to graylist.

And then the employer is then given a list of recommendations that need to be done in order to avoid or lift gray listing if it's enacted. And once that list is completed, or we have a memo of understanding that says, we are going to do this and it will be completed by this date, something in writing that gives us an assurance is going to happen, then the work site then has the right to say, okay, we're lifting gray listing. We're not at that point at Health Sciences Center yet. There are still many issues that need to be addressed. And so gray listing continues there. And so while that continues, as I said in the introduction, that means that other nurses are advised not to take jobs or extra shifts there because it's deemed to be an unsafe workplace.

Right. And it's basically asking nurses who are thinking of applying there to rethink that decision until this employer can provide a safe workplace. Because, you know, I mean, we already have staff at risk there. You know, what would be even worse is having a brand new nurse come out of, you know, their education and start a job there and start their career been assaulted within the facility. So this is a way of saying to the employer, you are obligated to provide a safe place and that's our expectation. What is the impact of that on patients at a time when there's

already a nursing shortage? Well, as nurses, our goal is always to provide safe patient care without compromising patient care. So we, nurses are still going to work. They're still working their, you know, scheduled shifts. They're not taking extra shifts, for example. We still have nurses who are picking up shifts because they understand that if they don't, their patients aren't going to receive care.

And we also have nurses have been mandated. Do they struggle with that? If you don't mind me interrupting, do they struggle with that, that idea that if they don't take those extra shifts or if they say don't come and work here because it's not safe. That might be a legitimate concern, but the fallout from that could be

that patients may not receive the care that they need. Do nurses struggle with that? Absolutely. It's a struggle, but your patients are not safe. All patient safety and patient care aside, if I'm not safe at work, my patients aren't safe, our visitors aren't safe,

and our families aren't safe, and we need a safe workspace and a safe environment for everyone who either gives or receives, care at these facilities? We asked to speak with the Health Sciences Center. They pointed us instead to their website that lists safety improvements, police stationed in emergency, more weapons detection screening, cameras, plans for a hospital-wide notification system at Northern Health Region, which is the region that covers Thompson General. They sent us a statement about

their actions as of the 1st of December, hiring safety officers, better restricting access to the hospitals. Is what you've heard and what you've read is, is that anywhere near enough to make those nurses, go back to that initial point, to make them feel safe to go to work in the first place. So I just have to point out that many of the safety issues that have been dealt with at Health Sciences Center, they were compelled by an arbitrator. We actually filed a safety grievance and went to arbitration. And the arbitrator found that that employer was not mitigating risk at all and gave a huge laundry list of safety issues. So the weapon scanners, you know, there was many things that were compelled by an arbitrator that weren't done voluntarily.

And so what we're finding is that as much as we bring evidence forward, nothing voluntarily has been done. And much of it has to do with budgetary restraints. The employers just don't have the money to do what they need to do. And I hear from employers all the time saying, if I had the money, this would be done already. So gray listing is also a way of saying to the government, you must provide funding to these employers to do this. We're almost at a time, but in any other workplace, and you've talked about concerns around our moral code

and what is not acceptable, if somebody slapped somebody else in another workplace, that wouldn't be deemed to be something that we need to figure out the budgetary concerns to address. Do you know what I mean? Exactly. What is going on? What's different about how we think about

people in nursing? Well, you know, I think, I mean, there's always been violence in health care. It's definitely escalated, but there's definitely been violence in health care for years. And nurses, you know, almost took it as well as part of the job. And I think there's been a huge shift in thinking for nurses saying, I do not deserve to be slapped because you are waiting eight hours to see a doctor. It's not my fault. And I think what we're seeing now is more and more nurses who are reporting

acts of violence, and we're seeing nurses who are now filing charges against, you know, the perpetrator. And we didn't see that before. So I think the level of response from nurses has risen with a realization that, you know, I don't get paid to get slapped at work. You've said just finally that if the union has to gray list every single hospital in the province of Manitoba, you will. Do you stand by that? Absolutely. Absolutely. There is not a facility in this province where violence isn't happening, every shift, every day. And if it takes an entire province been gray, then we'll do that. Darling Jackson, good to speak with you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Darling Jackson is president of the Manitoba Nurses Union. She was in our

Winnipeg studio. This ascent isn't for everyone. You need grit to climb this high this often. You've got to be an underdog that always over delivers. You've got to be an underdog. You've got to to be 6,500 hospital staff, 1,000 doctors, all doing so much with so little. You've got to be Scarborough. Defined by our uphill battle and always striving towards new heights. And you can help us keep climbing. Donate at lovescarbro.cairbo.ca.com. Are your pipes ready for a deep freeze? You can take action to help protect your home from extreme weather.

Discover prevention tips that can help you be. Climate Ready at Keep It Intact.com. That decision to Graylist a hospital in Manitoba, two hospitals actually, is being watched closely in other parts of the country. Kimberly LeBlanc is president of the Canadian Nurses Association. She's in Ottawa. Kimberly, good morning to you. Good morning.

Darling Jackson says there is not a facility in the entire province in which violence does not occur. Could those nurses be working just about anywhere in Canada from your perspective? They could be. And, you know, in this instance, we're talking about acute care facilities, we have to be cognizant that this violence has been going on against nurses for many, many years and that it happens across the spectrum of care. So imagine you're a home visiting nurse, you're walking into a home, there are no safety protections for you. You never know what you're going to get when you open that door. or if you're working in long-term care

or in rehabs or in clinics it happens across the spectrum of care. And so what do you make of the fact that the nurses who are the subject of this violence? They're the ones who are being attacked and we heard don't feel safe going into work that they have chosen to gray-list their facilities saying we don't believe it's safe

and we don't believe if you have the opportunity that you should come and work here. So while I can't really comment on any one specific facilities, I can say that I greatly commend these nurses and the union for taking such a courageous step. And while this is really highlighting the physical violence, sexual violence, you know, really it's the verbal violence that's constant as well. The moral distress that nurses are under is huge. What do you see is the root of that? Again, Darlene talked about how from the pandemic and on, we seem to have lost the plot when it's.

comes to what is and is not acceptable? Well, I think that the pandemic has done, it's shone a light on it, but this has been going on for longer than I've been a nurse, you know, and that's been more than 30 years. I think it's a lack of respect of nursing as a profession. It's that, well, the person is in pain, so therefore it's excused. Or the physician has had a hard day. You know, unfortunately, these, this violence that nurses,

nurses undergo is not just from the public coming in. We have it from other health care professionals as well. You know, there's many stories of our physician colleagues having a bad day and screaming at a nurse, throwing a scalpel at a nurse. These are not on common instances. Throwing a scalpel at a nurse? There's been many instances of things like this as well. I think it's one of these cases where we need to look at it that violence is just never okay and I really commend nurses are starting to stand up

you know one of the things that happened yesterday that you may not be aware of is that MP Todd Doherty he's the MP for Caribou Prince George in BC he tabled Bill S233 in the House of Commons and this is asking for

the courts to impose stricter sentences on anyone who has assaulted a nurse, well, any health care professional. So hopefully this will be passed. Hopefully, you know, this is going to, well, it won't solve the problem. At least it may deter some people, maybe make some people think twice or at least shine light on this epidemic that we have going on with violence in the workplace.

You've been, as you said, a nurse for 30 plus years. Yes. Have you ever seen anything like this? Have you experienced violence? Is anybody, if you don't mind me asking? I talked to you? Yesterday. Yesterday.

So, you know, I work as a consultant in long-term care, and I'm working with the dementia population. And so on a regular basis, I will be hit by someone who has dementia. You know, it gets excused because the person has dementia. But the bottom line is there aren't the safety measures put in place to protect nurses caring for this vulnerable population. I mean, we receive additional training, but if we don't have enough staff, then it's very difficult to, if you don't have those ratios to really, you know, protect you, then, you know, it becomes an issue. You know, I have been in my career choked, I've been punched, I've been, I've been yelled at probably more than anything.

You know, it's not a unique experience. And I talk to nurses across the country who talk about this moral distress that they're feeling. at the Canadian Federation of Nurses Union conducted a survey in January of 2025 and they found that 61% of staff experienced a serious workplace violence in the last 12 months and that include verbal abuse,

threats, harassment, physical assault. These aren't minor. They lead to concussions, broken bones, trauma, burnout, moral distress, long-term physical and mental health impacts. So, you know, these are nurses, that, you know, talk about wanting to lead the profession. They either leave the profession early, retire early.

They, or they, you know, a lot of the younger nurses are leaving the profession altogether. Do you think that idea of gray listing a hospital? I mean, that's publicly naming and shaming in some ways, an institution saying, we don't believe it's safe and we need you to take specific steps to ensure our safety. Do you think that is a step that will make a meaningful difference? in what happens in those institutions? I would like to think it does. I mean, this is, I think Darlene Well said, this is a last step.

This is a last resort. And these nurses and the union are very courageous for taking this step because there's always a risk that there'll be public backlash as well. But these nurses are saying this is not okay. And the hope is that this is going to force that hospital or facility, whatever the institution is, to put safety measures in place. No one should feel unsafe going to work. And I think, you know, anybody listening to this should imagine going into their place of work

and wondering, am I going to be yelled at today? Am I going to be punched today? Could you imagine this idea of gray listing spreading outside of Manitoba? Again, to your point, this could be anywhere. Could that practice extend beyond that one province? I think you could see it extending, certainly, especially, you know, if the Manitoba nurses get the results they're looking for, which I think they will, then I think you will see other facilities. The nurses now saying, okay, if they can do it, we can do it. The public needs to be aware that if they are driving nurses, we're already in a shortage, we're already in a nursing crisis.

and if they are driving nurses out of the profession, there will be nobody there to take care of them. And yet people will constantly talk about nursing, not just as a profession, but as a calling. What would you say to young people who have heard this? They're considering nursing as a career and they wonder, what am I getting myself into? I'm probably the wrong person to ask because I love being a nurse. I have loved every day of being a nurse. Despite everything. Despite everything, I love the work that I do.

I love the challenges that present. I don't like every day. There are days when, you know, I wonder why am I doing this. But at the end of the day, I also think of all the positive interactions that I've had. I think that's one of the reasons why I'm so passionate now about speaking at the later end of my career, speaking out for why we need to make this profession better and safer for the nurses to come. Kimberly, good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

Thank you for having me. Kimberly LeBlanc is the president of the Canadian Nurses Association. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca.ca slash podcasts.