The Current - Marsha Lederman, on searching for the “humanitarian middle” after Oct 7

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

Globe and Mail columnist Marsha Lederman has been writing, trying to understand what happened on October 7, the subsequent war, and its ripple effects through Canadian society. She speaks with Matt Galloway about her new book, October 7th: Searching for the Humanitarian Middle.

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when Hamas militants crossed the border and hunted down people in their homes and at a music festival. They killed about 1,200 people and kidnapped another 251. And then came the war, and a relentless campaign that Israel said was intended to root out and destroy Hamas. Israel's assault on Gaza has killed more than 60,000 Palestinians, according to the Gaza health ministry and has resulted in charges of war crimes and genocide. Throughout all of this, Globe and male columnist Marsha Lederman has been writing,

trying to understand what happened on October 7th, the subsequent war, and its ripple effects through Canadian society. She has compiled some of her columns in a new book, October 7th, searching for the humanitarian middle. We recorded this conversation with Marsha Leiderman on Tuesday morning. You describe the night of October 6th, 2003 as your last normal night. What changed for you after that? Well, immediately what changed was watching the events unfold in Israel, a country that I have some history with. My parents who were

Holocaust survivors considered going to Palestine after the war. They did not. So I did not grow up there, but I have family there. And I've spent some time there. And then, you know, know, immediately watching what was happening on my phone was, it was shocking. It was upsetting on almost a biological cellular level of someone who already suffers from intergenerational trauma. I've spent my whole life telling myself, you know, Marsha, be calm, the Nazis are not coming to get you because I have a recurring dream of Nazis hunting me. in my home, in my bedroom. And something very specific happened that weekend. It was Thanksgiving weekend. It was also my son's birthday. He was turning 15. And he had a sleep over with his best friend.

And I, of course, fell asleep long before they did. And all of a sudden, I was woken up by a knock on the door. And I woke up. And my first response was, they're here. And of course, they were, you know, these sort of Nazis of my nightmares, turning into, you know, Hamas terrorists. Of course, it was my son and his friend. They were, I don't know what they were doing. But that's where I went immediately. And so things kind of went downhill from there, for me, emotionally anyway. You read in the book that in the first few months, you feel like you went from a journalist who happened to be Jewish to a Jewish journalist.

What's the distinction between the two? Well, I mean, you know as a journalist that it's really something we learn from the very beginning, from journalism 101 on, that you leave yourself out of the story. That is drilled into us. And then suddenly I'm an opinion columnist and my job is to write about my opinions and my observations. And it became essential to me that my own background be part of that. Like there was no way. way not to make it part of that. That would have been disingenuous. So that felt very weird. It felt strange. And I could see people responding also to my work, not necessarily to the words I was writing, but to who I was. What do you mean? People were responding? Well, some emails that would target me as a Jew, as opposed to, I didn't like your opinion here. It was nastier. and more personal than that. And I was writing, it was very personal. I was writing from this very intense place. I was so upset. You know, my intergenerational trauma had been activated and I was

motoring through on that. And I know it's not actually traumatic for me. I know I am very safe here in Canada. I'm not in a war zone. But something was happening in my body. There was a traumatic element to it. And that was definitely at play for me as I was writing these columns. I want to ask you about language, because this is one of the themes that runs through the book, words and how they're used and what they mean to people are really powerful and can be divisive as well. One of the words is Zionist. What does that word mean to you? Yeah, I grew up with the term Zionist all around me. As Zionists, we believed in the state of Israel. We cared about the state of Israel. You know, my family planted trees in the

state of Israel. And we were told a certain story about the state of Israel. We were told the story of the birth of the state of Israel as if it was a story with a happy ending. I'd never heard of the Nobka. I did not know what had happened to Palestinian people. I just knew about the war of independence. And again, it was a story that was told as, you know, this was a triumph for our people. But, you know, to this day, I consider myself a Zionist because I believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist. I don't agree with how it is existing. I despise the current government. I disagree strongly with the occupation. I am in favor of a two-state solution. But I I consider myself a Zionist, a progressive Zionist, and I'm sure people are yelling at the radio. Some people are yelling at the radio right now at that term, progressive Zionist.

What does that what does that turn mean to you? I want to ask about the yelling. People yell about all sorts of things. But what does that term progressive Zionist mean to you? What I just said, it means that I believe Israel has a right to exist. I care about it existing in its future. But Palestinians should also have their own state. They should not be. treated the way they are being treated and even before the war. But what's happened in this war is abhorrent. And, you know, for that, just talking about the screaming for a minute, because I call myself a Zionist, because I believe in the state of Israel, I'm called a genocidal Nazi. There's another word that's, we'll talk about genocide, I'm sure, but Nazi is a word that has been weaponized and used here. I'm sorry. I am. not a Nazi. My grandparents were murdered by Nazis. My mother was put in Auschwitz by Nazis. So don't call me a

Nazi. On the other end, I do think that you can criticize the state of Israel, which deserves criticism, and not be an anti-Semite. That's another bit of language that's been weaponized here. As soon as you speak out against the state of Israel, you're a Hamas lover or an anti-Semite. That's just bad faith arguing. It's not even arguing. You say in the book that friendships have been lost. How have you seen that play out in your own life? People went

silent. People kind of disappeared from my life. Some people. Others tried really hard to understand. I'm talking about my non-Jewish friends. You know, it's if something had happened that had

targeted another group, so brutally, so bloodily, I don't know if that's a word, such a bloody massacre. And then after that discrimination against that group increased, I would reach out to friends who were part of that group. I would express concern for them. That wasn't happening because suddenly I became my position, and that's not even my position, but who I am, someone who believes in the state of Israel was antithetical to what a lot of people in my progressive circles believed and very strongly expressed.

One of the other words, and you've raised this a couple of times, is the word genocide. There is a growing chorus of voices from outside of Israel, but also from inside of Israel, who are calling what is happening in Gaza right now a genocide. Do you believe that what we are watching right now as a genocide? I'll tell you, when people first started using the word to describe what Israel was doing after the attacks, this was almost two years ago, I, well, I thought it was wrong. I thought maybe, as it continued, that people were misinterpreting the term, that they thought genocide meant mass slaughter, massacres, a tanker, terrible, many civilians dead in a war, all of which are terrible, terrible things. But I kept coming back to the UN definition of a genocide, which I have in front of me. So I'm just going to

read this to you. This is written in 1948. Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group as such. It's an attempt to wipe out a people essentially with intent. And when I saw what the Israeli government was doing early on and people started using that word, I was certain that it was not accurate. Things have developed, and I recognize that. And as you say, like Bet Salem, Doctors Without Borders, the Israeli author David Grossman, a genocide scholars, are saying this is a genocide. And that word is so difficult. I think for a lot of Jewish people whose own experience not very long ago led to the word itself. So what does it mean if the country

that was established because of that or out of that is committing that act, is committing genocide? I mean, that's why the word has so much weight for this community. I'm not trying to dodge your question, but I will say that I'm struggling with this term. I'm very aware of why some people, many people and many organizations believe this is a genocide. And I've certainly changed my feelings about that term being used here from the time I started writing about this. This is me grappling and struggling. You know, this is a massacre. I believe war crimes have. have been committed, crimes against humanity. It's a catastrophe. I'm, as I say, I'm struggling with the term genocide. But to me, what's important is not the language or the semantics, but that this has to stop.

What is happening has to stop. There are two kinds of Canadians, those who feel something when they hear this music. And those who've been missing out so far. I'm Chris Howden. And I'm Neil Kuxel. We are the co-hosts of As It Happens. And every day we speak with people at the center of the day's most hard-hitting, heartbreaking,

and sometimes hilarious news stories. Also, we have puns. Here Why As It Happens is one of Canada's longest running in most beloved shows. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. But doesn't the language matter in this? I mean, I say this as a writer. But also, Omar Bertov, a Holocaust analyst, somebody who has studied the Holocaust. somebody who has studied genocide studies in Israel.

He served in the IDF, wrote a piece in the New York Times saying, I know it when I see it in some ways. But his point is the language matters. And he, like you, evolved over time to say this wasn't initially, but now believes that to not use that word is actually even more problematic than perhaps denying it early on. He says that now you have to, you have to acknowledge the. evidence. I just wonder, doesn't the language matter? Yeah, and language matters. I mean, we're journalists, so I want the language I use to be accurate and correct. And this is why I keep

coming back to the definition. And of course, I read his piece. I mean, he's a very respected genocide scholar and Holocaust scholar. And when I read pieces like that, when I hear Philippe Sands, another person who certainly knows a lot about genocide, seemed to lean into that term being accurate, it does give me pause. Like I say, I'm struggling. And yes, I agree the language matters. You say in the book that you have angered people on all sides. And these are your words.

You've been accused again and again of not caring. What is the response that you've received from what you've written over the last couple of years? I mean, just how would you characterize that? Heartfelt, passionate, very mean and nasty. sometimes. I've been called a traitor to the Jewish people. I've been told my parents would be rolling in their graves. I've also been called a genocidal Nazi from the other side, I guess. and I have received very long, very, like, people pouring their blood on the pages as they're writing to me with their experiences and their feelings. And I appreciate that. The name calling I can do without, obviously. Another thing that I've been told again and again, stop whining about anti-Semitism.

It's look at what's happening in Gaza. When Israel stops, the anti-Semitism will stop. Well, that's ludicrous. Yes, what is happening to me, you know, the microaggressions that some Jews are experiencing or worse is nothing like what people in Gaza are experiencing. Yes, of course. But that doesn't mean it's okay. It doesn't mean it's justified. You know, you can say what you want about the Israeli government. But to say it's okay to be anti- Semitic because of what the Israeli government is doing is, well, that's baloney. There's also what you said earlier, which is this idea that you have betrayed your Jewish heritage in some way by showing compassion for Palestinians. When you get commentary like that directed at you, I just wonder what your response is, how that strikes you? I don't think people are saying I'm betraying the Jewish people for showing compassion to Palestinians. I think they're feeling that I am betraying the Jewish people. I am betraying the Jewish people by being critical, very critical, with a large platform of the state of Israel. I think

as someone whose parents and whose family members were starved and murdered and had all their rights and freedoms taken away, I think I have, in fact, a special responsibility to be speaking out. You know, if you want to be really base about it, if you are a Jewish person, who cares about Israel, you should care about this war ending and about Netanyahu accepting, well, somehow a ceasefire deal being worked out and accepted. Listen, I know Hamas is an unreasonable adversary and that's, you know, the nicest thing I can say about them. But Israel is supposed to be a democracy, and I want to be not in a position where I'm ashamed of that country. What about, and maybe this speaks to this, this idea that if you acknowledge the suffering on one

side of this conflict, the expectation or the obligation people will say is that you have to talk about the other side suffering in the same breath. What are the implications of that, do you think? Again, I think this is, that's a bad faith approach to this. You know, if someone writes a piece about the horrors of what is happening in Gaza right now, if you don't specify that it was the result of the Hamas led attacks on October 7, 2023 and that this many people were killed and there are still hostages, if you don't say that, then you're, you're not your job properly. Everyone's waiting to pounce. And I don't think that's helpful. The book is subtitled searching for the humanitarian middle, which might seem like a ridiculous thing to talk about humanitarian. What is humanitarian about what's happening right now? Or what's the middle at this point in the war? Or what's the middle? Well, I think the middle is, you know, being able to look and see that, you know, what's happening in Gaza is awful, but also I can mourn the victims of

October 7th and be devastated about the hostages still in captivity and their families who are waiting for them. And look at the starvation in Gaza, look at the children who are being, who've had their lives ripped from them. Even if they're still alive, they're not. going to school, they're not getting the life that they deserve. Why are those things contradictory? Why can't I be pro-Palestinian and care about the state of Israel at the same time? And that's the middle. That's where I am. Can I ask you, just you write about this and people will know for a long time you're an arts journalist, how this is played out in the arts community. There have been disputes in the world of theater about what stories will be told

the Toronto International Film Festival is underway right now and there has been a very contentious argument about one film in particular, the road between us, whether that film should be shown, should not be shown. What do you make of how this is played it in the arts world, a world that you know very well? It's been so polarizing and so damaging.

You know, almost immediately, like really in those first few days, there were cancellations primarily, or maybe only, of Palestinian writers and artists, canceled from speaking or from receiving an award publicly. And that was shocking to me. And then it came for the Jewish artist. You know, you mentioned TIF, the Toronto International Film Festival and what's happened with the road between us. I mean, how can we even be asking ourselves whether this film should or shouldn't be shown? If it's a good enough film to be invited in the first place, of course it should be shown.

And what is a film festival doing, telling a filmmaker to change the title of the film, which is something that happened? It was originally supposed to be titled out of nowhere. That's not a film festival's place. A film festival is there to show us many perspectives. There's just one more example, if I can, the one that really hit the most personally for me was the cancellation of a play, a Canadian play, called The Runner, first by the Belfrey Theater in Victoria and then by the Push International Performing Arts Festival in Vancouver. It's a story of an Israeli man whose job is to basically, this is very graphic, but clean up body parts after a suicide. bombing or after a bombing. And he stops and helps a Palestinian woman instead who may or may not have been the person responsible for this attack. People were calling for the play to be

canceled. It was so disappointing to me that a festival that is supposed to be all about edgy, avant-garde, challenging the narrative work capitulated and canceled the place. play. That was very disappointing for me personally. What is the role, just the last point on this, what is the role of arts and culture in this? And what do you think we've lost because of how this has played out? There are many roles of arts and culture, but to shine a light on maybe atrocities, things that are wrong, injustices. I want to learn about what is happening and art can teach me that. Art can offer a perspective and make me feel for the people who are being hurt.

That's something art can do and it should do. And a film about a man who rescued his granddaughters on October 7th, how does that offend anyone? I don't understand that. Are you seeing, and maybe this just finally goes back to that subtitle of the book, searching for the humanitarian middle. Are you seeing evidence in this country of people being willing at this stage in this war to develop empathy or understanding for people on the other side? Are we interested as a nation? Do you think is there interest in that?

I think there is more interest than we know. I think people are worried about speaking up because they're worried they're going to be mobbed or canceled. There are some groups here who are doing really. good work, bringing Israelis and Palestinians together, Jewish and Muslim people together, groups like standing together, women wage peace, the New Israel Fund, Canada, these groups are doing that work. And I think that those voices are our voices we need to listen to. You can hear it in your voice. There's a weight to the last couple of years that's been on you. How are you doing?

Yeah, I'm not the same person. I was before. You know, it occurred to me the other day that I'm going to go to my grave without this being resolved. You know, hopefully the war will be over. But, you know, will Gaza be rebuilt? What is going to happen to those families? Will Israel's stained reputation ever rise from this horrible moment? And I think about the intergenerational trauma, how generations of Palestinians and Israelis are going to be suffering a form of what I'm suffering and have suffered my entire life. So no, I'm not, I'm not doing very well. Again, it doesn't matter. It's nothing compared to what other people are dealing with. But it has been an

absolutely shattering experience. And it would be easy not to talk about this. It would be easy not to write about this. It would be easy to just go under the blankets and hope for a resolution, but that's not going to help. So I'm trying with whatever little voice I have to get people to talk to each other and listen and read and care and learn. And I, that's all I can, that's what I'm trying to do with my pain. Take care of yourself. It's good to talk to you as always, Marcia. Thank you. Thanks so much, Matt. I really appreciate all the work that you do in illuminating this horrible topic. Marsha Leederman is a columnist with the Globe and Mail. Her new book is called October the 7th,

searching for the humanitarian middle. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name's Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.