The Current - Meet the Syrian women demanding a role in the country’s future

Episode Date: January 22, 2025

After 13 years in exile, Alma Salem kissed the ground when she finally returned to Syria, after the fall of Bashar al-Assad’s regime. Matt Galloway talks to the political activist and two other Syrian women — human rights advocates Azza Kondakji and Noura Aljizawi — about their hopes for rebuilding their country, and why they say the role of women in that future is non-negotiable.

Hi, I'm Caitlin Prest, and I am here in your ear to tell you about a very incredible show called Asking For It. Asking For It is a darkly comedic series that follows a queer fem singer whose herstory of violence finds her no matter how many times she runs away. It has an original soundtrack and it'll make you laugh, cry, and feel a little bit less alone. Asking for it. Subscribe now. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The current podcast. That's the sound of Syrians dancing, laughing, hugging one another and celebrating the fall of the Assad regime.

It has been six weeks since that historic moment. Bayan! Bayan! Bayan! Bayan! Bayan! Bayan! Bayan! Bayan! Bayan! Bayan! Bayan! And for families and friends, there have been emotional scenes at the airport as they reunite

after decades of being apart. The fall of Bashar al-Assad's regime marks the end of his family's five-decade grip on power in Syria and the beginning of the long and difficult journey of rebuilding that country. The hope for so many is a Syria for all Syrians. We're joined now by three Syrian women who have been advocating for change in their country for decades. Alma Salem is the executive director of the Syrian Women's Political Movement.

She is in Damascus. Azza Kondakchi is an activist who is persecuted by the Assad government for her work. She is in Homs, Syria. And Noura Al-Jazawi is a Syrian human rights defender and former political prisoner under Bashar Al-Assad. She is in Toronto. Hello to you all.

Hello. Hello. Alma, you are in Damascus. You recently returned to Syria for the first time after 13 years of being in exile. Describe what it's like to be home. I'm a Syrian Canadian. So I came directly from Morial via Lebanon.

I think being home, I always say that it's so difficult to leave home, but it's very easy to come back. It feels like time never passed. I went from Lebanon. The first thing I asked the driver to stop on the side of the road and I really kneeled on my knees and kissed the serious earth and smelled it. The smell was very important for me.

It was raining, so it smelled the trees of Syria. It's just that connection to the land I was missing so much. And also, I dedicated this to the martyrs of Syria because I thought I will only come back to Syria buried, you know, right to that earth. But I came alive and I could hold it in my hand. It was a very, very meaningful moment. You never thought that you would be back there alive? No, ever. Two months, uh, two months ago. It's a miracle. It's a miracle.

Noor, you're in Toronto. What is it like to hear that? I'm still processing. Still can't believe that when the, when the clashes started at late November, we were just predicting and honestly watching from afar with very serious fears. When Aleppo was liberated, I was so excited, but also deep down I was freaking out saying like, is Assad planning now to hit the city with chemical weapons? I don't know.

I was very scared, but like to deliver that, I was very scared to feel happy. And with every single city was being liberated, with every single village was being liberated, like how, how this happening? of the prison chains being broken and detainees, political prisoners and forcibly disappeared people are being liberated and coming out to streets, seeing faces and hearing about the names of people who were found and like like it was very overwhelming. And the moment like December 8th, it was the moment that we looked at each other here in Toronto. We were watching the news as a group of exiled Syrian activists here and we're like, we have home now. I looked at my daughter

and told her like, I can't take you home. We can't go to visit your grandpa. I can't take you to my city. You can't see homes. You can't see where I grew up. And she hugged me. She said, is it really safe now to go? I told her, like, yeah, Asad is no longer there. And she, for a seven-year-old child, didn't see the country ever. She said, oh, now I can go to grandpa and he can take me to the farm so I can ride his horse. And that's all to her. A dream that we really kept delaying and we kept trying away from, because we were broken. You remember, Matt, a couple of years ago when you were

when I was interviewed by you on The Current. I was really hopeless. I was really depressed, but probably I wouldn't see similar to Alma and similar to many exiled Syrians, I wouldn't see the country again. And I started preparing myself to lose my loved ones back home without even getting the chance to say goodbye. Asa, you remained in Syria throughout this conflict. You're in Homs right now. You were arrested at one point in time as well. Could you ever have left? Was leaving a possibility for you? First, as Alma and Noura were talking, hello Alma and Noura.

Alma, Alhamdulillah, Salami. Noura, I hope that you are able to come home soon. Listening to them, now I have tears in my eyes. I can feel my stomach drops and my heart is beating so fast as if it's the 8th of December again. Leaving the country was like it was not a choice for me like I could have traveled and I had many options but you, it's based on everyone on how much, to what extent they can bear. Also depending on the issue each and everyone have went through

to the things that I have went through, I have always felt like I can still go the extra mile and bear the horrific situation in Syria because I want to live, I want to still help the people that I can help and I want to witness this moment of triumph whether it would happen or not but I always had a big belief that it will happen, that I will witness this day somewhere deep down, there was a part of me that was really convinced that I will live to witness this day. So yeah, it was hope. It was hope that kept me in the country.

Why do you think there was that part of you, as you said, deep down in the face of everything that kept you believing that you would witness this moment? Because the efforts that this strong, that these strong people paid, the blood of the martyrs, the patience of the families, the patience of the families in tents,

the patience of families living in houses without doors and windows, the huge pain of children, of orphan children will not go in vain. You're in Damascus as we said, Alma. Tell me a little bit about what life is like now under this transitional government of HTS. Yes, so we're calling it now the caretaker government

and not HTS anymore. They're actually rebranded themselves and we are, we're respecting that to be able to work together. So I believe that what we are witnessing a historical moment that starts from El Rouda Cafe which is a cafe that was founded in 1936 facing the parliament. We've always, you know, it's a very important spot for the political life of Syria. We heard our parents speaking about the 50s and how the political life was flourishing in democracy, you know, the First Republic.

It was always a nostal...when you pass by it, it by it and you see the pictures, you know, the black and white pictures of, you know, all the ancestors who sat in this cafe. It was something that we were deprived from. So that cafe right away became, you know, the place, the place for gathering. Everyone who comes back right away goes to Raud. Every night there's a tradition in Syria called the ARADA, which is a kind of reception, a special reception with swords and drums. So every night there's a ARADA of someone who's coming, especially the famous people who are exiled, who were exiled, the opposition. So every night there's someone new arriving to Syria and there's that. That's at the level of celebration. So we're calling it the endless

party that became even very noisy continuously. But it's a euphoric moment. At the same time, at Rauda, for the first time ever, we could gather, sit, speak without being scared of secret police harassing everyone. We're free. We're absolutely free in terms of freedom of speech. I would say that Damascus became a large workshop. Also some new spaces opened. And Madania came back, took Al-Farhi House, which is also an old house. And they started organizing talks. Talks varies between the constitution, you know, economic priorities, rights, especially detainees as a priority. Now everyone's looking for their lost ones.

So all those conversations are happening in the public spheres, and I believe that we took over the public space again. In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner and I'm back with season three of On Drugs, and this time it's going to get personal.

I don't know who sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Noura, as you think about what the Syria of tomorrow might look like, how important is it that that Syria of tomorrow is for everyone? That there is social and political inclusion for all Syrians? Yeah, absolutely. Like Syrians for more than five decades were being kept out of the decision-making of their affairs. And now I believe it's the huge moment of creating a system that everybody could feel included and their voices is being heard. That's difficult too though, right?

It is, absolutely. It requires a lot of work. but I believe now as Alma and Asa both said that there are opportunities. Today what brings Syrians together, what unites Syrians is way more than what divides them. And there's always a possibility. So absolutely we can come together and build the new Syria that we believe in and we dream of. Asa, I had read a statistic that something like almost two and a half million children are out of school in Syria. What has that done to a whole generation of kids, to that next generation? And this is the cost in some ways of the civil war and the years after the civil war.

Well, Syria's educational infrastructure is in urgent need of comprehensive rebuilding and support. The devastating impact of the war has left more than 7,000 schools damaged or destroyed. That necessitating extensive repair and reconstruction efforts, equally critical is the need to enhance access to curricula and education materials to ensure that children can resume their studies and rebuild their future. Because, you know, the conflict has created tragic legacy of interrupted education with millions of children forced to drop out of school. This widespread disruption is often the result of multiple displacement, economic hardship that compels children to become their families' primary breadwinners, or the inability of

families to afford basic educational resources. Like addressing these challenges is essential to restoring hope and opportunity for serious younger generation with a focus. In my point of view, the main focus also should be psychosocial support. Psychosocial support. What about economic support? This is part of it as well, that as you mentioned, because of sanctions, but also infrastructure, the impact of war over time, that there's an economic crisis in that country. How do you go about addressing that? Well, the war has also caused a crippling

in its infrastructure, housing, and essential services, while displacing millions of people. You know, the housing center has suffered immense losses with at least 22% of all housing units across the country either damaged or destroyed. In homes where I live, the destruction is even more profound with 60% of the city in ruins. So, to rebuild and restore Syria, comprehensive economic support across all sectors is urgently

needed. Do you need the world to respond to that? Is that at the heart of the move to lift sanctions, do you think? That if sanctions were lifted, that would help spur that redevelopment that you're talking about? Of course, of course, of course, because the exhaustion grips both the land and its people. Alma, let me ask you about the role of women in this. We talked about the importance of this being a new Syria that is driven by political and social inclusion.

You're the executive director of the Syrian Women's Political Movement. HTS is an Islamist group that in past has restricted the role of women. And I know, as we said, that they have rebranded themselves. But I wonder, do you worry about women's rights in the New Syria? I think that women's rights are a challenge everywhere. But yes, for Syrians and women, absolutely. It all started with the new political bureau. They founded a new office they called the women's affairs. And it's

led by by Miss Aisha Debes, who wasn't very correct in her first speech. And she mentioned that women should stay at home and she started dictating how women should act and so on. But this created a large wave of anger honestly among feminists and everyone replied to that. What we are noticing is that they are listening and they are acting and reacting. We're going step by step. We're observing, we're challenging and we're observing all violations. But at the same time, there's no compromise on women's political participation and we sent a request to be part of the national conference. We sent a request to Al-Shar'a office. Noura, you heard that no compromise. What does that look like for you? I always say that there's no woman affairs as an isolated concept from the public affairs of citizens.

When we went to streets in 2011, we didn't went to street and took all of that risk to protest, just demanding women's rights, because women rights are every citizen's rights. We went to streets in 2011 to demand our political, our human, our every single right as equal citizens in the country. And that didn't change. Over now, the repressive regime of Assad is no longer in power. That doesn't mean women are now in a perfect place, because the interrelationship that the authoritarian regime in Syria was constituting against women is a combination of dictatorship and patriarchy. Now the hardest job of removing the dictatorship is hopefully over, but now it is our job to confront the patriarchy.

And that doesn't come easily for sure. And I believe it's a very hard job building from the bottom to up. Working with women on the ground is something very important. It's not about the tokenism that the Assad regime was doing before having 100 women in parliament. Under Assad, it meant nothing. By the way, under Assad, the Syrian parliament had the highest percentage of women within the region, but that didn't mean these women in parliament, the member of parliament back then, had any power.

So we need, as Syrian women, to reclaim our political, social, and human rights. That doesn't mean that women would be all work in one ministry, as it is always being like something, let's give these women something to play with. No. Women are involved in everything. Women are equal citizens and women are experts in every single aspect of the day-to-day life, of the governance, of finance, of all sectors. So bringing these women to where they belong is, is the job. And I, I always resist something like, yeah, we're going to have a ministry for women affairs or a dedicated body for women affairs, because it means, and somehow, and this is how I'm always afraid of like an isolation of women and to be just centered in one place.

We're just about out of time. Let me just ask you before we go, Noura, given what the country has been through, is it possible to move forward without holding those who were responsible for the crimes that shattered the country, holding them responsible for those crimes. Is it possible to move forward without that sort of accountability? No, the first step must be accountability. What would that look like for you? I mean, in other countries, I mean, think in Canada and in South Africa, for example, there were truth and reconciliation commissions. What would that look like, that accountability, do you think, Noura?

No, there are absolutely like human rights organizations documenting the atrocities over the years of conflict. And there are names and files already open for the commanders and the orchestrators of the atrocities against Syrian people. I know that gladly we saw the prosecutors of the ICC visited the country for the first time. So, there's work, but to Syrians, as Syrians, as like to me at least, if I don't want to speak for other Syrians, people who involve in the atrocities must be held accountable. Truth must be told and victims must be heard.

I know like we all are very upset in the meantime because we believe that the cause of detainees and missing persons, although many people were freed from prisons and detention facilities, but many are still missing. And like many families, including my own family, we're still searching for any word about the loved ones that we are still searching for, whether they were persecuted, whether they were buried in these mass graves. We don't know. The families of missing persons, they need answers. We need justice to be served. We need the all victims to have their voices heard. Just before I let you all go, Azza, just finally, there's a lot of optimism in what you all are saying. You stayed there. You didn't flee the country. You stayed through the worst of this. What is your hope

for the next generation of Syrians? Well, a generation with dignity and respect of human rights. Syria's next generation carries the hopes of a nation yearning for healing, growth and a brighter future. This is a generation that could rise from the ashes of the conflict. They, they embody the dream of a nation that can stand all, uh, tall once again, uh, like a Phoenix is reborn. Like a Phoenix is reborn from the ashes. Yeah. Alma, the authorities in Damascus have called on a million and a half Syrians

who fled the country to return home. You returned home to Damascus. Is now the time for people to go back to the country that they fled? Yes, it's the time. If we can topple Assad, we shouldn't be scared of anything. I believe that we learned so well how to start a revolution. And if we're not happy, we can start a new one at any moment,

but this is a time to build. This is a time for political participation. This is time to re-own the country. This is a time where we will start a civil society that never existed, where we gather without fear, where we hug each other, celebrating a moment. I believe that Syrians today are very powerful, extremely powerful in their unity and victory. It's a moment of victory. And we were always reluctant to use this word because we never

felt that we deserve it. And because we weren't sure that a military victory is okay. And yes, this and that's why this is not only the victory of those who carried this military operation, it's years and years of everyone's contribution from the vulnerable artists to the martyrs to the, you know, doctors who went and served to those who smuggled even children's milk and got detained and tortured because of that, to those who carried one dollar and were disappeared for that. I think that this is a time for everyone. It's a country that is ours now and we deserve the opportunity. We deserve the possibility. What happened now is that we learned that the impossible is possible. Because for us, I mean, Assad's ending the Assad-y moment of 55 years of darkness, that

was impossible. That was really impossible for us. And today it is possible. So whether we really, we fell a bit, it's not easy. I mean we're not claiming it's easy but it's at least possible and it's worth it, so worth it. I hope you all have the chance to do that work together and you mean you've spoken so powerfully separately but to be together in that country and think about that future would be really quite something to see.

In the meantime, the optimism that you've spoken with is really, really powerful. I hope you have the chance to be together and to see that we're coming together in person. Yeah, of course. Azza, I'm coming to you and Aith. Okay, I will be waiting with that. Hope to see you all in Damascus. I'll be between Damascus and Montreal. So six months, six months. So Alma, if I don't see you in Damascus, hopefully I'm going to see you in Canada. We have two homes now. Canada, yeah. Okay, everyone. Thank you all for being here and we'll talk again. Alam Asalam is the executive director of the Syrian Women's Political Movement.

Azza Kandakchi and Noora Al-Jazawi are Syrian human rights activists and former political prisoners under Bashar Al-Assad. And as you heard, all working together to try to figure out the future of that country and what it will look like.