The Current - Migrants living in fear of Trump’s deportation push

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

U.S. President Donald Trump is making good on his pledge to conduct the "largest mass deportation in history,” sweeping up both undocumented migrants and people with work permits and legal protections. We discuss the master database that DOGE is building to track and surveil immigrants, and hear what it’s like to live under that shadow.

Fisherman John Coppock and his son Craig were hoping that their day on the water would finish with a good haul of cod. Instead, they reeled in way more than they bargained for. They had a net filled with fish and to their horror and surprise, the body of a man. I'm Kathleen Goldthar and this week on Crime Story, a body in the ocean untangles a sea of lies. Find, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. We are getting some very bad people, killers, murderers, drug dealers, really bad people, the mentally ill, the mentally insane. They emptied out insane-ness out of us. They emptied out the mental illness out of us.

They emptied out the mental illness out of us. bad people, killers, murderers, drug dealers, really bad people, the mentally ill, the mentally insane. They emptied out insane asylums into our country. We're getting them out and a judge can't say, no, you have to have a trial that let's, the trial is going to take two years and no, we're going to have a very, we're going to have a very dangerous country if we're not allowed to do what we're entitled to do. It's US President we're not allowed to do what we're entitled to do. It's US President Donald Trump speaking in the Oval Office earlier this week pushing back against the Supreme Court's decision to temporarily block his administration from

deporting a group of Venezuelan migrants. It is just one of several legal hurdles facing Trump's mass deportation plan. There are growing concerns in the United States over people being detained or disappeared without due process and experts are sounding the alarm on a master database being built by Elon Musk's DOGE team which could be used to track and surveil undocumented immigrants. We will hear more about the legal side of all of this in just a moment, but first I'm joined by a 23-year-old undocumented resident. He's in Arizona and we aren't using his name over concerns for his safety and fears that he could be deported.

Good morning. Hello, good morning. You're a dreamer, which is known, uh, it's, it's the term that's used for somebody who came to the United States illegally as a minor. There are some legal protections and work permits under the Obama policy known as the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals or DACA. But you settled

in the US after the window to be part of that initiative had closed. What does that mean for you? What sort of legal protections do you have right now in the United States? Yes. So since I entered the US after the DACA deadline, that means that dreamers like me, a lot of people usually think that dreamers mean people who have DACA, but the truth is that dreamers would be, like you said, young people, anyone who would qualify for the DREAM Act, where children who grew up here, we call this country our home. We're students, workers, future doctors, and engineers. And that means that someone like me without DACA, that's a dreamer, has no real protections here in the US. When did you come to the United States?

So I initially came here when I was just a couple months old. My mom brought my brother and I when I was just a couple months old, my mom brought my brother and I from Mexico to the United States because my grandparents came in the 80s. They were farm workers and got citizenship through the administration. My grandpa wasn't feeling too well. He was having a lot of health issues. So we would come visit him. And we would travel back and forth the United States since I was just nine months old and we settled here after the deadline for DACA because my mom realized that the education system would be better here and that we could have a chance to work hard and be successful. When you were growing up, what did you understand about what it meant to be undocumented and

what that meant for what you and your family could or couldn't do? Yeah, so growing up, I always knew that I was undocumented. My mom would threaten me, take out the trash, if not we'll go to Mexico. And she would hold that over our heads. But in all seriousness, it was a reminder that there was this thing that was always going to be held over our heads. I remember in the first grade, one of my friends had to say their goodbyes telling me that the police had gotten their parents and that they had to go back. At the time, I didn't realize what that meant back then. that they had to go back.

At the time, I didn't realize what that meant back then. Uh, simply that I had to fear that one wrong move could change everything. And so, I mean, when you're living your life, we've spoken with, with folks who run documented in the United States before, I mean, they can't get driver's licenses. They weren't able to get, for example, federal funding to go to school. Are those all things they also were very careful about, I mean, when they went out, you know, not speeding, make sure you stop fully at the red light, that kind of thing. Um, are those all things that, that sound

familiar to you? Yeah, that's right. I, I remember when I first immigrated, um, that was during the time of SB 1070, the show me your papers law here in Arizona. And, um, we would watch families get separated on television. And I remember one day my mom sat me down and she told me, this is what's gonna happen

if one day I'm not gonna be there to pick you up from school or if one day I don't make it home from work. Like you have to go to the neighbor's house, take this binder, you have to be to the neighbor's house, take this binder. You have to be strong. Remember that everything will be okay. What was in the binder? She kept this binder in case she got deported, right?

Yeah, she kept guardianship paperwork as well as residential paperwork receipts that we have been here in the United States for a couple of years at that time, our birth certificates, all of the legal documents from my brother and I. And so when you take a look at what's happening now, where thousands of non-citizens are being detained and deported, sometimes without due process, how has that changed your life? What does that mean in terms of how you live

your life day to day? Well, it's gotten increasingly more scary because reality just feels very fragile. It felt fragile back then, but now it's even much more. The truth is that due process isn't just a legal term. It's really our last line of defense and for people like me, it's barely hanging on. So what do you do to keep yourself and your family safe? There's not really much we can do other than just pick up these habits to keep us more safe. It's a big conundrum because at times it feels like

we're almost trying not to be at the wrong place at the wrong time when at the end of the day, those are circumstances that are out of our control. This is such a hot issue in the United States. We spent a bunch of time in Arizona, which is a border state before the US election. And we spent a bunch of time in Arizona, which is a border state before the U S election. And we talked to a lot of people there, including people who were first

generation Americans, folks who might've come across from Mexico and now settled in the United States. I'm sure you've heard this, but one of the things we heard from people is that folks like you aren't in the country legally. And that if you want to be in the country legally, you have to go what they say is through the right door, that you have to go through the front door, that you can't go around the back door. What do you say when you hear that? Well, at least when we're talking about dreamers like me and a lot of the immigrants that are here

came in looking for a better life, whether it was for themselves, their children, their families. We had no, at least Dreamers, we had no say in coming to this country. We didn't choose to grow up here, but we did. We learned English here. We pledged allegiance to the flag. We went to school here. We fell in love here. We found our favorite coffee shop here and we contribute here. We pay taxes, we give back, we show up, and still we're treated like we don't belong. We're talking about parents, siblings, people who are small business owners, people who've been here longer than they've lived anywhere else, and people who don't have DACA, who've done everything right and still live under threat. And people like me who are just making headlines now, being called criminals in all these derogatory terms,

and we all deeply care about this country. What would you say to the president, Donald Trump? You heard him at the very beginning saying that he needs to do this, the US needs to do this. If you were able to talk to the president, what would you say to him? I would share my story. I would talk about people who contribute in the community. I just recently graduated college with a degree in biomedical engineering.

Before graduating, I was working with Mayo Clinic with research on thermal regulation for people suffering from insomnia and woman and menopause. I was working on organ transplantation machines for organ viability, things that I am deeply passionate about, but still I'm just trying to contribute to the state and the country that I call home, and I would urge them to make a path forward for people like us who are just trying to support our family and contribute to our community.

Just before I let you go, given everything, why do you want to stay in the United States? Given everything that's going on right now, why is that the place that you want to be? Because this is our home. I consider myself an American, even though we have different headlines and messaging saying that we aren't American. I really do think that I'm American. I've lived the majority of my life here. I love this country.

I want to give back. And I know so many other people that do as well. I'm glad to talk to you. Thank you very much. Yes, of course. That's an undocumented resident of the United States living in Arizona. We aren't using his name over concerns for his safety and fears that he may be deported. We also spoke with a DACA recipient who's been living in the US since he was 11 years old now works in academia. DACA, as we said, offers some legal protections to people in the United States illegally, along with the right to work. But he, despite those protections, is still feeling uneasy. And we aren't using his name either, because he is also worried he could be deported.

Everyone's feeling it. My mom tells me to be careful. My mom and brother are now US citizens. And they both tell me to please be careful, you know, try to not be too vocal. You see that people are getting disappeared left and right. You don't know what could happen to you. And it's true, I don't know what could happen to me. I don't know what could happen to people like me. In the fall of 2001, while Americans were still grappling with the horror of September 11th,

envelopes started showing up at media outlets and government buildings filled with a white lethal powder, anthrax. But what's strange is if you ask people now what happened with that story, almost no one knows. It's like the whole thing just disappeared. Who mailed those letters? Do you know? From Wolf Entertainment, USG audio and CBC podcasts, this is Aftermath, the hunt for the anthrax killer.

Available now. Millions of people in the United States are living in fear of being deported by the Trump administration. And there are growing concerns around the legality of the tools being used to carry out the White House's plans. Cody Wenske is senior policy counsel with the national political advocacy department at the American civil liberties Union. Cody, good morning to you.

Good morning, Matt. Great to be here with you. Good to have you here. How real are the fears of people, like the individual that we just spoke to, who might have some degree of protection under DACA or other programs, but they worry that they could be part of the story of the mass deportations. I think their fears are very real and very well justified. This administration has made no secret of the fact that they intend to remove tens of thousands, if not millions of people from the country. And they are using every tool at their disposal, including ones that bend and break the law, as well as using those tools to target people who have long been in this country,

sometimes legally, and have paid taxes, have been participating citizens, and it's an unfortunate attack on people who in all sense of the word are Americans. I wanna come back to the tools in a moment. That idea of in all sense of word being Americans, this is the question that I asked that individual as well. There are a number of people,

and some of them are recent immigrants to the United States, who don't see those who are living under that cloud as Americans. They don't see the legal status applying to them because, in their words, they didn't come in through the proper channels. What do you say in response to that? I think the important thing to remember

is that even if a person is here undocumented, that the Constitution still applies. It still applies to the government. And those people are entitled to basic fundamental American rights, like due process before the law, as well as the First Amendment right to speak their mind. And these are two fundamental precepts

of what makes the American system special, that this administration is just hopping over again and again. The US Supreme Court, and we heard this at the beginning, has said that deportations can continue as long as people have the chance to argue their case in court. The president has said that the courts take too long, and the people he's deporting are dangerous and they're breaking the law. Do you think that the US, that the White House is disregarding the US Supreme Court when it comes to this? We will see how the White House chooses

to respond to both the Supreme Court as well as the lower courts that are actively being involved in these cases. But no matter of urgency allows the president to unilaterally suspend the Constitution. Due process applies whether or not it is convenient or inconvenient to the president and immigration enforcement authorities. And they have to provide people these basic rights

in notice of the charges against them, an opportunity to make their case. The government has approved its case before a neutral decision maker. And that's not just a matter of convenience for the administration, it's the law. So what's at stake then? I mean, people throw around the phrase constitutional crisis

when they take a look at what's going on in the United States right now. If the White House were to continue these deportations in the face of what the Supreme Court and lower courts have said, what is at stake do you think? You know, I'm not gonna weigh in on the sort of squishy term constitutional crisis and exactly what that means, but we are definitely at a particular crossroads here

where we are testing the system of separation of powers here in the United States. And there are a number of fundamental ideas at stake here. One is the idea again that the government has to prove before a judge that you are guilty of a crime or that they have made their case before they deprive you of your liberty. And that is not just a precept that will apply to undocumented people and removal proceedings, but all of us in any particular proceeding. And that is a fundamental American precept

that once it begins getting chipped away at, could be potentially utilized by any president in the future against all stripes of people. And that is simply unacceptable. The deportations are underway. Where are people who are being deported being sent, as you understand it? In our understanding, they're being sent to far-flung places

away from family, away from friends, and away from legal counsel. And it's simply another part of the administration's strategy to make defending their rights under due process of law even more difficult. I mean, there's this, obviously this story that's got so much attention of this one man who was deported, sent to this notorious prison

in El Salvador, the belief was he should not have been deported, bring him back, we're not going to bring him back, we can't bring him back, the leader of El Salvador says we're not going to assist in that. What do you make of, not just that case, but the role of a country like El Salvador in this?

It is extremely unfortunate that the administration is co-opting known human rights abusers in its administration of domestic immigration law and then using that as a shield to avoid court mandates or to attempt to avoid court mandates. But I think one thing that's really critical to underscore is in that particular case and others, we are seeing the courts instruct the administration over and over again that due process in the Constitution are not merely optional, they are required.

Which is what I think a lot of people don't understand. If the courts say this, then why isn't the government compelled to act? Why, if the courts say bring him back, why doesn't the government say, okay, we're gonna figure out how to bring him back? The government is compelled to act. You know, it's a fundamental precept.

But they're not acting. It's a fundamental precept. The United States said the courts say what the law is and the administration has to comply with that. Now, compliance can be complicated and we're watching that very closely to ensure that the administration does comply. In many of those cases, we are actively litigating and we want to ensure that the Constitution

is followed and these folks' rights are vindicated. You talked about the tools that are being used here, some of which may bend the rule of law. There are reports of some sort of huge database that's being built that uses information from things like the Internal Revenue Service. What do we know about this database? What is it and how is it being used in this effort? What we're seeing is that the administration

under the guise of combating fraud and waste in federal programs is knitting together a vast surveillance database. And at first, this was something that we suspected was happening, but the administration has said the quiet part out loud. On March 20th, the president issued an executive order telling federal agencies to begin consolidating federal records.

And even though entities like DOJ, the so-called Department of Governmental Efficiency, are meant to combat fraud, they nonetheless have gone after key databases like the one at the IRS to identify people who are taxpayers but say may not have a social security number and they're using that as an indicator of who may be undocumented in this country and it's sort of perverse. It means that people who are interacting with the federal government, including by paying taxes,

are being prioritized and attacked by this immigration removal machine. What are the legalities around something like this? And who potentially could be swept, you call this a vast surveillance database, who could be swept up in this? Any number of people could be swept up in this. You know, when the Department of Homeland Security

or DOJ pick up databases and roll them together that are databases of taxpayers, people who have received Medicare benefits, people who have received Social Security benefits. Those are databases that have nothing to do with immigration and instead are going to sweep up everyone who has interacted with the government during the course of their lives and that's the vast majority of Americans and that raises the risk that these entities are either going to target people who are here legally, who are American citizens, and reach wrongful conclusions.

Has anything ever been done like this where a lot of information from different sources is kind of knitted together? This is truly unprecedented. It is legal and permissible in the United States for agencies to share data, but they are meant to do so for a specific purpose, with privacy protections and with transparency. And what we are seeing from DOGE and other governmental entities is a fly-by-night strategy of pulling these systems together in the dark of night without cybersecurity protections, without privacy protections, creating a database that any governmental agent,

either on President Trump or under a future Democratic president, could query for any purpose that they like? What the president is doing in some ways was not a secret during the election campaign. He ran in many ways on the idea of this mass deportation effort. You would see people at his rallies with signs

saying mass deportation. His administration has argued that its efforts are working. Not only did Americans elect him, based in large part on dealing with the border and migrants, but the number of people illegally crossing, particularly at the southern border with Mexico, is down dramatically. What do you say to that?

That they would believe not only that they were elected to do this, but that it's working. I think the answer is that no amount of campaign promises, no measure of illegal border crossings justifies a suspension of the constitution. And in fact, things like due process and the first Amendment exist in order to protect people who may be politically unpopular. And so those protections apply regardless

of what promises the president made. It's also worth noting too, that the president has control of both Congress and the executive branch. And if they like to, they could pass laws to address some, not all, some of these issues. And yet they do not. Instead, the president chooses to proceed unilaterally, violating the Constitution and violating the law. How do you understand the support, such as it was, that his election efforts had in this? I mean, there were many millions of Americans

who believed this, and we heard that from people, as I said, when we were down in Arizona along the southern border, but you heard it over the course of the campaign as well. How do you understand that? It's safe to say, of course, that the president campaign on immigration. It's probably his number one issue. But on the other side, he did not campaign on things like Doge. He did not campaign on accessing everyone's tax files.

Their social security files, sensitive medical records, querying education databases, and that is new and disturbing efforts the administration is taking. And of course they're unpopular because people know that that information is sensitive and it ought to be used for limited purposes. And so what has to happen? I mean, as you mentioned, he has control in many ways

of the whole of government. What, if you were this concerned and you won't use the phrase constitutional crisis, but a lot of people will, if it is as dire and as extreme as your painting, what has to happen to push back against this? I think that these cases in the courts are going to continue to proceed.

We're gonna continue to see that the courts are going to vindicate our constitutional rights, and we expect the administration to respond accordingly. If they don't, we will cross that bridge. But it's also worth noting that we are democracy. Congress is a co-equal branch of government and they do need to step up and conduct their constitutional role of oversight. So I urge people to reach out to their Congress people, whether they be Democrats or Republicans, and ask them to call the administration to account. And after all, elections happen every two years

in this country. Those elections are gonna come up faster than we think. And that will be another opportunity for the American people to weigh in through the ballot on the administration's efforts. We have to let you go, but I just, I'm gonna ask one more time what crossing that bridge is going to look like.

If the administration avoids the courts, if the administration says, you know what, fine, we're gonna do this anyway. And it doesn't matter what lower courts or the Supreme Court of the United States says, what does crossing that bridge look like? I mean, I'm not going to lie. It would be a serious issue if the administration chooses to disregard the law, including when they've been instructed by the power of the courts, and that is an opportunity for the people to make their voices known through the First Amendment activities, that this is unacceptable. You expect mass protests in the streets, for example,

if that were to happen? The protests are definitely one option. There are many ways that Americans can and should express their views. Cody, we'll leave it there. Good to talk to you. Thank you very much. Good to talk to you.

Thank you for having me. Cody Wenske is a senior policy counsel with the National Political Advocacy Department at the America Civil Liberties Union.