The Current - Migrants living in fear of Trump’s mass deportation threat

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

Undocumented migrants in the U.S. are bracing for mass deportations threatened by President Donald Trump. Matt Galloway talks to a young man terrified his family will be scooped up by immigration officials, and a Trump supporter who says the deportations are necessary.

It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle

and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. President Trump has been clear from day one, he's going to secure the border and he's going to have the deportation operation. There has to be consequences for violating our laws. To enter a country legally as a crime, then to commit a crime against US

citizens, President Trump's had it. We're going to start this operation. We're going to fulfill the mandate the American people gave him on election day. That's President Trump's border czar, Tom Homan, outlining plans for a mass deportation of undocumented immigrants in the United States. He says the crackdown has already started, targeting illegal immigrants who have committed violent crimes, but many immigrant communities fear it won't stop there and they are on high alert. Some families are even wondering whether it's safe to send their children to school.

After the Trump administration announced on Tuesday, it would allow raids in schools, churches and hospitals. Saul Rascón Salazar is a dreamer. That is the term for immigrants in the United States who applied for status using Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals or DACA. This is a program started under the Obama administration allowing young undocumented immigrants

who grew up in the United States to seek temporary protections. He immigrated to the United States from Mexico with his family when he was five years old. Saul, good morning. Good morning, Matt. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for being here.

What have the last few weeks been like for you? I mean, Matt, the last three days have been anything but normal. It's been all exhausting. It feels like we're a year into the Donald Trump presidency, but the last few weeks have been a roller coaster of emotion with the optimist side being hope and the community that I have found, especially in Phoenix, Arizona. But obviously everything coming from my phone and my newsfeed has been, yeah, exhausting.

You said that you're living with paralyzing fear. What is your fear? I think the fear on top of just the severe extreme anti-immigrant rhetoric that we've seen in the past year, year and a half especially, has caused a lot of uncertainty and that's probably the biggest source of fear, the uncertainty, not knowing what's coming next. Tell me about your family. I said that you came to the United States when you were five.

How long has your family been in the US? We have been in the United States since 2006. So coming up on 20 years. And I was five years old when we moved. So it's pretty much my whole life since I started making memories. Let's go say, how do you describe your relationship with the United States? It's complex.

I used to say I was just Mexican, and now I say Mexican-American. I don't really feel like I belong fully in either of the two, but I consider myself a Mexican-American. I don't know, it's a complex relationship with the identity. Your family came on tourist visas? Correct. And did not leave? Correct.

What do you understand about why they came to the United States? I actually, I'd like to think I have a clear understanding. My dad was in, I have a clear understanding. My dad was in, he had a corporate job. He was actually well relative to his peers. He was well positioned. He used to work for Frito-Lay out in Mexico and it wasn't cutting it.

My dad always had ambitions to provide more and really fulfill that narrative of the American dream, at least in 2006, of what that was. And we wanted to move just for economic reasons. It wasn't anything humanitarian or super serious. It's just the ambition and that entrepreneurial spirit that my dad had. And so you have temporary protection through DACA, the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program. What about the rest of your family that's in the US? Yeah, correct. I have that two year, every two years,

I have to renew and pay $600 to be considered to be here. And the rest of my family is either undocumented, which means they don't have any sort of status, given that we have a broken immigration system, there's no outlet for them to pursue some sort of closure. And then I have two siblings that are US citizens born and raised here in the United States. So your parents are undocumented? Correct.

Yeah. Donald Trump says that his priority has been to deport immigrants with criminal records. He says he does not plan to deport Dreamers. He's spoken about how he would work with the Democrats on a plan to protect the Dreamers, despite the fact that in his last term, he worked to rescind DACA. Right. How safe do you feel right now as a Dreamer in the United States? Well, one of the things under the first Trump era that we witnessed, I remember, again, going back to that theme of uncertainty, I remember that nothing really that came out

of the White House under Donald Trump was to be taken, not serious, but was to be taken as a fact. I really want to emphasize this feeling of uncertainty and sort of feeling like I'm gonna be fooled or some ball is gonna come out of left field. I feel unsafe because nothing is certain with a personality of a leader like Donald Trump. But the language he used was,

he talked about how Dreamers, this is his language, were brought into this country many years ago. Some of them are no longer young people. In many cases, they've become successful. They have great jobs. In some cases, they have small businesses. Some cases, they may have large businesses and we're going to have to do something with them.

That sounds, I mean, that was from an interview that he did before the inauguration with NBC News. That sounds as though he supports the situation that you're in. Right, it sounds optimistic almost. And like I said, I mean, it's been years since the first Trump administration, but I can't help but to feel uneasy and uncertain because he also said great things about Joe Biden

at the inauguration and then an hour later said, completely switched up. So it's one of those personalities that have volatile opinions and volatile intentions about Joe Biden at the inauguration and then an hour later said completely switched up. So it's one of those personalities that have volatile opinions and volatile intentions and given that it is about immigration, I do feel uncertain that something could switch up at any point as it's happened before. How worried are you about what's happening now in the United States and what has been promised?

How worried are you about what that could mean for your parents and one of your brothers who is undocumented? I'm really worried, especially being in Phoenix, which I feel is one of the centers of how we've seen this anti-immigrant rhetoric manifest itself. I worked with Aliento, a local non-partisan pro-immigration organization, and I have seen the effects, whether that's at the grocery store or just the fear that my parents have. I mean, my parents arrived in Arizona during the Senate Bill 1070 days under Joe Arpaio,

who was the sheriff at the time. And we've seen these themes again of community feeling that trauma sort of come up again. So it feels uncertain and it's honestly stressful. Have you thought ahead to what would happen if your parents, for example, were to be deported? Yeah, those are, I mean, I'm 23 years old, Matt, and I've dealt with these types of feelings and having to maybe grow up a little faster than I'd like to and have these contingencies. This time around, it feels heavier just considering we've been more established in the country and those are thoughts that I don't necessarily want to think about, but I think it's important

for every family. Unfortunately, it sounds kind of insane to say out loud, but even US citizens to have a contingency plan for deportation. So yes, I've absolutely thought about it. What is that contingency plan for your family, if you don't mind me asking? Yeah, I think as it should be for most people, it's multifaceted. It has legal components, financial components, having an emergency fund, a community that we can rely on in case that logistics need to be taken care of.

It's a very scary thought to think that you'd be here one day and then completely gone after 20 years, the next. You know that there's a lot of support in the United States for what Donald Trump is proposing. And what's complicated about this, we were down in Phoenix and down in Tucson before the election speaking with a lot of people about this, people right at the border in Arvaka, but also folks in Tucson who are recent immigrants themselves. And they say,

these are their words, I mean, they came through the front door, they wonder why people who came through the back door or the side door, maybe overstayed a tourist visa, maybe crossed at a gap in the wall, why they should be allowed to stay when they had to come through that front door. What would you say to them? I would say, I mean, I've heard those comments time and time again, and it just speaks to either a lack of education of the United States immigration system or just pure ignorance. But these are people who came through that system themselves.

These are immigrants themselves saying that. Right. And just because someone came through the system doesn't mean they have a complete understanding of what it looks like. And I mean, I've been in the space for years and even now it's so dynamic, it's changing. I think it speaks to the lack of access that the United States has, whether that's to approve talent or invite innovation or invite, like my parents, invite entrepreneurs. There is not enough of a robust process. It's easy to say, oh, I came in through

the front door and other people came in different, and, you know, through different methods, but it speaks to just how urgent it may be for some people to leave their countries given the situation. But do you understand why somebody would perhaps have concerns about, and again, I'm not just talking about your family,

but if people came on a certain visa and then they overstayed that visa, the visa was for a certain period of time and then they were supposed to leave and they stayed, why people might have concerns about that process? I absolutely understand the concern. Just because I understand it doesn't mean I excuse some of the anti-immigrant feelings that it may bring up, but I absolutely understand it. And I think, I mean, like many things, I don't think the responsibility is as much on the

people feeling these, you know, these human emotions, the stress, the need to provide a better life for themselves. I think everybody, regardless of your nationality, wants to provide a better life for yourself. I think, again, it speaks to the lack of efficiency and robustness in our immigration system to allow people to, I hate to use the term, but to allow people to do it quote, the right way. What do you think, I mean, and you say that the United States

in many ways is your home, you've been there since you were five, what do you think the United States owes families like you, yours? I would say it's a complex question. I don't like to have to prove someone's value in a country given that the United States should be freedom and justice for all, but for my family specifically, I know that at the very least, we've done everything in

our power to be good citizens and be, you know, we're taxpayers and have been since we arrived. I think it goes back to something as simple as taxation, no taxation with that representation. And yeah, I don't have to say more than that, I feel. It shouldn't be as complex as it's gotten in recent times. There are many, as you mentioned, many immigrant families that are being encouraged to plan for the worst, have food and shelter and childcare ready just in case the adults, for example, disappear in a raid.

You have been working with that organization, Aliento, advocating for immigrant rights. What's the advice that you're giving undocumented people in the United States? I think recently the advice has been more tailored to an individual's needs, but in a broad sense, like I mentioned earlier, to have that safety net, whether that's financially or legally, or like you mentioned, food and shelter and specific people in your community or family members you can count on in the

case of a sudden deportation. We've already seen the raids come up again on the news, so that very well could be something that we see in Phoenix, unfortunately. And yeah, I think just legal, financial and basic human resources are something to definitely prepare in the case of something worse. And at the very least, it gets the ball rolling. Just before I let you go, what is it that keeps you going through all of this? My community. As I opened up, I really find a lot of shelter and hope in knowing that there's a lot of people and a lot of funding and resources being put towards having human decency and pushing for a pro-immigrant rhetoric, given that it's objectively a net positive

for our country. Saul, I'm really glad to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Matt. Have a good one. And you, Saul Rascón Salazar is a DACA immigrant living in Los Angeles. He came to the United States when he was five years old. His parents and younger brother are undocumented immigrants in Arizona.

In 2017, it felt like drugs were everywhere in the news. So I started a podcast called On Drugs. We covered a lot of ground over two seasons, but there are still so many more stories to tell. I'm Jeff Turner and I'm back with season three of On Drugs. And this time it's going to get personal. I don't know who sober Jeff is. I don't even know if I like that guy. On Drugs is available now wherever you get your podcasts. The expected increase in deportations in the United

States is just one plank of President Donald Trump's immigration plans. Moments after he was sworn in, he used his inauguration speech to outline the actions that he would take immediately. The first move he listed declaring a national emergency at the border with Mexico that was met with a standing ovation. He then outlined his day one executive orders.

All illegal entry will immediately be halted and we will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. Conn Carroll is the commentary editor for the Washington Examiner. He's a former communications director for Republican Senator Mike Lee. Conn, good morning to you. Good morning. Donald Trump has been talking about Mexico and immigration since he initially announced he was going to run to be the president of the United States, coming down that golden

escalator all those years ago. Why do you think the border and illegal entry is so important to him politically? Because it's important to his base. It's important to his number one fans. I think when you look back to the Republican Party before Trump, most recently in 2014, you had the Gang of 14 who tried to pass an amnesty with

Barack Obama. They lost. Before that, you had George Bush in the White House as president, also tried to pass an amnesty. So I think there was a feeling among a large part of the Republican base that they just weren't being listened to. And so you had Trump come along and finally give them a voice and they responded. After the election in November, you wrote a column about why you were, in your words, cautiously optimistic about Trump's deportations. Now that you've seen the blueprint such as it is, how do you feel?

Good. I think so far it's largely gone by what I said it would. You know, as I noted in the article, I think if you were one of those people who are hoping that Trump is going to deport 12 to 20 million people, however many illegal immigrants you think are in the country within the next four years, I think you're going to be disappointed. However, if you are hoping that Trump will shut down the border and then in an orderly fashion start working with local jurisdictions to remove those aliens who have criminal convictions and those who already have deportation orders

entered into the system for them, that would be a huge step in the right direction. And I think that is what you're seeing Holman, who is the border czar, already doing. Trump promised to deport an estimated 11 million people, right, I mean, this was his problem. All illegal migrants in the United States would be deported. Do you think his supporters think that he's going to do that?

That he's going to send 11 million people out of the country? Yeah, I mean, I can't speak for all of Trump's supporters. I think when you watch Trump as a political figure, you always have to take what he says as with a grain of salt. He is, I think, ultimately an entertainer, and I think he realizes that, and I think on some level, his supporters do too. When he says some things like Mexico's gonna pay

for the wall and Russia and Ukraine war's gonna end on day one and we're gonna get rid of the income tax entirely with tariffs. I mean he says those things and I think on some level everyone listening kinda knows their exaggerations. Aside from some of the things he said, what do you think the missteps that he has made are thus far?

This isn't the first time that he has tried to reform the immigration system. So what has he got wrong? Sure. So far this time, I think he's done well, but we're what, three days in? But I think when you look back to the first term, I think there were major missteps. you know, when you look at the family separation policy that

was pushed and conducted by Stephen Miller, I think that was a grave error on two fronts. One, it just wasn't effective. So when you look at the numbers of who's crossing the border, you have about 100 hundred thousand children coming every year and about seventy thousand of those children are what are called unaccompanied miners, what are called UX in the trade. And so these are children who were paid for by their families, often through cartels to be smuggled into United States without their parents. So they were voluntarily separated by their own families, ultimately to try to be reunited with other family in the United States. But the point being that the people throughout the world are so desperate to get their children

into the United States, they are willing to separate their children from their families. So the idea that separating those at the border would be some type of deterrent was just obviously false. That was the first problem, it was just ineffective. And then second was just the political cost of it, in that both the stories and videos and audio of children being separated from families just really undercut what political support Trump did have for immigration enforcement. So on those two fronts, I think the family separation policy was a mistake. And I mean, already you see that policy not being re-implemented on the border.

I mean, even if it's not 11 million people, can the United States afford to deport millions and millions of people? The United States depends in many ways on them for their labor. It was interesting to note that even the president's nominee for ambassador to the European Union, Andrew Pudser, has admitted that he himself employed an undocumented housekeeper in past. Can you take those people out of the US economy?

Yeah, sure. I mean, look, you can look at Florida, right? So Ron DeSantis came into office with a lot of the same rhetoric, slightly toned down that Trump had, but he passed a very tough e-verify law in that state, which applies huge civil penalties to employers that hire illegal immigrants and don't use this US government's e-verify system to verify that their employees are United States citizens.

And you had think tanks, often liberal think tanks, conclude that this would tank Florida's economy, that the GDP would shrink by billions of dollars. And of course, this law was implemented, it passed, there were new stories. In fact, if you look at the Medicaid spending in Florida, so our healthcare system is very different than yours, but illegal immigrants obviously don't have health insurance, but their healthcare is paid for by when they go to the emergency room, the federal government picks up the tab for their Medicaid.

And so the Medicaid spending in Florida dropped significantly after this law passed, indicating that yes, many illegal immigrants did move on to other states because obviously no one was seeking healthcare anymore. But the Florida economy did fine. The tourism industry is at an all-time high. The unemployment rate is still low. The economic growth is fine.

So the evidence that we have is that yes, you can enforce nations immigration laws and the economy will thrive. Many of the people who are here undocumented are working people who pay taxes, they contribute, as we just heard, to their economies, people who run businesses, people who perhaps this is their only home. They have no connection to anywhere that they may have come from in past. What rights do you think those families should have to stay in the United States? Sure, so let me first say,

I reject the premise that they have no connection to any other country. I think when you look at any immigration population, it is often surged into the country by family connections through extended family, et cetera. So while someone may not have lived in Mexico or Guatemala before, I guarantee you they have family there. They have connections there. They have ties to their home country.

Yeah, I just find it ridiculous to think that people who just came to work a couple days ago have no family and no connection to their home countries. If people have been here for years and they have, the United States is their home now, and as I said, they have businesses, they pay taxes, they contribute to the economy, should they have the right to stay in the country? Sure, so I think you have to look at the fact

that there are over a billion people in the world that want to come to the United States. And no, they do not have a right to be here. And so at some point, you have to enforce immigration laws. You have to enforce the nation borders or otherwise the nation state has no meaning. And you know, hard lines like this are difficult to enforce, both politically and emotionally often and there are tough cases. But tough cases are not excuses to make bad law.

How much bipartisan support do you think there is for this? It's interesting that Ruben Gallego, who is a representative from Arizona, has spoken out about the need for more border patrol, more police, but also looking at trying to change some of the language around asylum and applications in the United States. How much is this a bipartisan issue in the United States right now, do you think?

I think that's in flux, right? So you had the Lake and Riley Act, which has passed both, well, the House passed it, the Senate changed it, the Senate passed it, and the House will pass it today with some amendments, but it's gonna pass today. But this was an act that was roundly uniformly rejected by all Democrats just last year in 2020, but Ruben Gallego voted for it as a senator this past month. And he's frankly told Democrats that

they don't understand the immigration issue like most working class Hispanic and Latino as people do in the United States and they need to change. So I do think you have some change on the democratic side on this issue. More importantly, I was just reading an article in the Washington, I'm sorry, the New Republic, not the Washington Post, that a lot of the immigration groups are beginning to rethink their strategy for immigration reform and that for years the Democratic Party line was it has to be one big huge deal which solves everything or nothing. I think that's changing now. I think they are beginning to see that look maybe we should allow for peace meal reforms here and there that make people's lives better instead of holding out for one gigantic deal. I have to let you go but just very very briefly you believe that the American public broadly is on side with those sorts of reforms?

Yeah. I mean, I think when you look at any type of polling, you see that the American people definitely wants more border enforcement, but there's always gonna be sympathy for those who have been here for a long period of time. Con Carroll, I'm glad to have you on the program this morning. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you.

Con Carroll is commentary editor for the Washington Examiner. He was in Washington, D.C.