The Current - ‘No Kings’ protests: What makes an impactful protest?

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Millions of people took to the streets in America for the No Kings protests on Saturday. It’s said to be the largest peacetime demonstration in US history. People are protesting against President Donald Trump’s policies, and say events like these help mobilize the opposition against his administration. So, the protests were huge but did they have what it takes to affect change? Lisa Mueller, the author of The New Science of Social Change: A Modern Handbook for Activists, talks about what makes the most impactful protests.

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This is what democracy looks like. Tell me what democracy looks like. Oh, hey, hey, oh, Donald Trump has got to go, hey, hey, oh. Huge crowds took part in no king's protests against Donald Trump's presidency and policies on Saturday. They carried signs that said things like orange lies matter, RIP checks and balances and can't spell hatred without red hat. Organizers say 7 million people came out to 2,700 protests across the United States. Illinois's Democratic governor, J.B. Pritzker, spoke at a rally in Chicago.

Tyranny depends on good people doing nothing. It requires us to accept the unacceptable, to rationalize the irrational, to normalize the abnormal. But tyranny also fails when ordinary people refuse to cooperate. when they say no kings and they mean it. The previous No Kings protests in June were one of the largest single days of protests in U.S. history. Organizers say Saturday's event was even bigger. Republican governors and several U.S. states

had placed the National Guard troops on standby ahead of Saturday, but the demonstrations were largely peaceful. Kate Powers is part of the organizing committee of the No Kings event in downtown Buffalo, New York. Michael Howard has been a registered Republican for four decades, but he voted Democrat in the last three elections. He is in Hopkins County, Kentucky, and he also took part in the protest on Saturday.

They both joined us now. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Good morning. Kate, what was the event like on Saturday in Buffalo? It was a picture perfect October day. The sun was out, and about 8,500 people, we estimate, joined us in downtown Buffalo.

There were people in costumes. There were people with signs. There was every generation from tiny little humans running around with parents to folks who served in World War II and have been fighting fascism for 50 years. Why was it important for you to be out there on, as you said, that picture perfect autumn day? Gosh, I think it's important to me because I'm seeing so many rights trampled. I'm seeing so many different constituencies being really harmfully impacted. I'm seeing fundamental rights being eroded across the country.

What have you seen in your own community? I mean, Erie County is part of New York. New York went Democrat, but Erie County supported Harris, but something like 46% of people voted for Donald Trump. How have you seen his policies impact people in your own community? Sure. One of the things that we're going to see very shortly is that about eight different hospitals in Western New York are at risk of closing because of the cuts that were in the giant funding bill. And there's access to cancer care that is going away. There's all kinds of medical research that is ending. And, of course, we're seeing some of the ice raids that folks may have seen footage of across the country.

And is your sense is that those are the policies that brought people out onto the streets on Saturday? I think people are concerned about a whole range of issues. We were talking about labor union issues and health and safety rights that are being stripped away. A lot of folks were talking about immigrant rights. We were also talking about the supports that are going away for military veterans in terms of care. at the VA, LGBTQ people and the rights that are being taken away, access to care, the trampling of educational institutions, scientific research, environmental protections, all of those things were coming up for folks.

Michael, you're down in Kentucky. That's a Republican state. As I mentioned in the introduction, you have been registered as Republican for most of your life, and yet you were part of the crew that was organizing this protest. Tell me why you wanted to be involved in this. Well, I've never been a party person. I've always voted for people. And to me, the most fundamental aspect of any candidate for office is their personal character.

And Trump doesn't have any, as far as I can tell. And that he poses a real danger, I think, to, Western democracy. And I just, I had no support for that. And it goes against everything that I think is right. So can't have that. You said in October, the time has long passed for decent people with goodwill to step up and be heard. What did you see on Saturday? How many people were out protesting? Well, we got, I live in a podunk little town in, in Western Kentucky. But we had probably 200, 250 people there yesterday. It was amazing. And what was the message largely? I mean, we heard what Kate was saying in terms of what people there in Buffalo were protesting. What was the message

in Kentucky? We had, Kentucky's got, you know, two or three larger, larger towns, which, like everywhere else, most of our Democratic voters are in the larger towns. But, There were rallies all over little rural conglades like ours. It was quite something to see. What are the issues that you think brought people out in your community? As far as the issues are concerned, our issues are, you know, they're much the same as everybody else. We were a little bit more probably concerned about agriculture and things like that here. But Kentucky was one of the largest states to expand for Medicare to get more of our people insured under the ACA.

And there's a lot of people that are very concerned about losing their Medicare. There are a lot of people that are concerned about losing access to government programs. Kentucky is one of the top three recipient states for federal funding and federal programming, and there are a lot of people that are dependent on federal dollars to make a living. What do you make of the fact, Michael, that last week, the House Republican Speaker, Mike Johnson, said that these rallies, he called them hate America rallies. I'm sorry, I didn't hear that one.

Mike Johnson, the House Republican speaker, called these hate America rallies. What do you make of that? Well, I think you're asking about Republicans at the rallies. And I think there's a huge swath of people in the center and on the center right

who are firmly disapproving of what's going on, but they are sitting on the sidelines and they're keeping their heads down because they don't want to risk the social and financial consequences of speaking out. And I think that's changing. I hear more people. I don't see anywhere near as much just general support for what's going on during this administration as turned Trump's first administration and just talking to people

and listening to people and I post a lot on social media and I'm getting a lot of feedback from other people who normally wouldn't say anything. So, you know, I'm hopeful that people are beginning to see and are beginning to realize what a threat to democracy we're in the middle of and are thinking that the time has come to stand up.

Kate, what do you make of that characterization by some of the Republicans? Mike Johnson saying these are hate America rallies. There are Republicans who've said that some of the people involved in the No King's rallies are paid by Antifa. Yeah. I mean, it's disinformation, Matt, right? It's disingenuous on its face. And it's trying to just muddy the waters, right? Which is an authoritarian tactic, right?

You want to smear the opposition. You know, we, I saw many signs on Saturday that said things to the effect of, I'm not a paid protester. I hate Donald Trump for free. You know, I think when people see their, and the other thing I will say is dissent is patriotic. It is baked into what the promise of America, which we've never fully achieved, right? But it is baked into what this country is supposed to be about. That you have the freedom to assemble, that you have the freedom of speech to say, I'm not okay. with what I see happening that, you know, so it's, it's just disingenuous and it's disinformation. What do you think can be accomplished from these rallies? Again, huge numbers of people out on the streets. There was a line from, you know, the White House was asked about it, and they said, who cares? From their perspective, they're just dismissing this. But you have Republicans and Democrats that are out protesting.

What do you think can be accomplished? Well, so I just want to say, I don't think they're dismissing it. I think they want us to think that they're dismissing it. but they wouldn't have sent Mike Johnson and all of his trolls out to say that it was a hate rally if they weren't concerned about it. But other than that, I will say I think that these events on their own are important in the sense that they remind people who are afraid, who are angry, and like Michael was saying, who are maybe sitting on the sidelines and aren't sure if they're willing to take the risk, it shows them that they're not alone. For people who do participate, it gets them in connection with other folks who are sharing their feelings. feelings. It expands the threshold of acceptable risk for folks. They're sort of titrating up, right? So that when there are more difficult things to come, people are going to be braver

and ready to lean into this fight. And the other thing I will just say is that every single rally was bigger than the surrounding police force. You know, they tried to say that all of the rallies were, you know, filled with Hamas supporters and all of these kinds of things. And they were joyful, purposeful gatherings of people who are afraid and who are angry. And as Mike said, who are absolutely determined to stand up and say, we reject this consolidation of authoritarian power by this corrupt administration. It's good to speak with you both about this. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Kate Powers is part of the organizing committee of the No Kings Day events in downtown Buffalo, New York. Michael Howard is a registered Republican. He organized the protests in Hopkins. County, Kentucky. Listen to this paid content by Beneva, now on CBC Listen. There are many factors that need to be considered in business. Experience and information can help you make informed decisions. Join host Catherine Duronso and her guests as they deep dive into the world of insurance

and financial products. From claim prevention, consumer psychology, and organizational health, each episode gives you real-life examples and practical advice. Tune in to Beneva's brand new. Ask the Experts podcast to learn more. Hi, I'm Sarah Nicole Landry and I'm the host of the papaya podcast where each week I ask curious questions to people with incredible stories or expertise in their fields. I'm somebody who has found so much inspiration in storytelling and learning from them and I wanted

to bring that to a podcast where each week we walk away learning something that might just change our lives for the better. Check us out every Monday on the papaya podcast. See you there. Lisa Mueller is chair of of political science at McAllister College and the author of The New Science of Social Change, a modern handbook for activists. She is in St. Paul, Minnesota. Lisa, good morning to you. Good morning. Thanks for having. What do you make of what you saw this weekend? As I mentioned, Republicans and Democrats in many states out protesting in huge numbers. Yeah, I see many encouraging signs for the prospects of these protests, in part because of what

you just mentioned. One of the key ingredients of successful protests, on average, like nothing is guaranteed, but one of the trends that social science identifies in more successful protests is having a diverse crowd. And by diverse, I specifically mean crowds that include not just the usual suspects. And so it would be one thing if it were only self-identified lefty college students who had come out in droves last weekend. But the fact that there were defectors from the nominal ruling coalition, that there were Republicans, in those ranks, does send a louder signal to the opponents of these protesters. Can I just ask you more about that, how important it is for Republicans to be out there?

Donald Trump won the election, but the sense is in speaking with people, you take a look at some of the polling as well, that there are many people who voted for him who did not vote for what they're seeing right now. How important is it for the overall success of these sorts of rallies to have those folks who are Republicans speak up? It's very important, yeah, for the reason I just underscore that it shows those who would doubt the protests as kind of cheap talk, that there are people who have taken real political risk, like risk to their reputation, like the risk of seeming inconsistent to speak up and say, no, you know, I may generally identify as Republicans, but in this case, here's why I'm speaking out against this Republican leader. It's a very

loud signal. What are some of the other things that make a protest? You've studied this. So what are some of the other things that make a protest movement actually have an impact? There are several key ingredients that I'm always looking for when I'm trying to assess the likelihood of protesters succeeding. And by succeeding, social scientists often mean winning concessions in line with their demands. And first and foremost, I'm watching to see whether the protests are largely nonviolent. And I specifically refer to violence that protesters initiate because a voluminous literature of social science shows that when protesters inflict violence, this tends to backfire enormously.

For the obvious reason that it alienates. bystanders who have a general distaste for violence. It discredits the movement, but it also raises the barriers to participating in movements, both the practical barriers, you know, the physical risks, but also moral barriers. And so it was really encouraging to see reports of largely and even entirely nonviolent protests this past weekend. And just a footnote that I would would add to that is that there is some research suggesting that when authorities initiate the violence and violence takes the form of repression against protesters, this might actually raise sympathy with protesters. And so even though repression is never a good thing and it was very

worrying to see the National Guard on standby in some cases last weekend, when repression does happen, it doesn't necessarily backfire on activists the way it does when activists are the first ones to throw a rock or or or punch someone how about creating the message in the protests how do you go about creating a coherent cohesive message that actually sticks cohesion is paramount when crafting an effective protest message and here I think it's really instructive to compare the wave of protests during the early period of Trump's first administration which took the form of the women's marches, which I attended and carefully covered, and I talk about extensively in my recent book, which were like the No King's protests and an assemblage of people with all sorts of

grievances against Trump, ranging from immigration concerns to women's rights, to health care access and more. But in the Women's March in early 2017, right after the first inauguration, we didn't see as much of a cohesive message that could unite all of those diverse issues under a big umbrella. And so I think the slogan, No Kings, does a lot of really important work this time around. And there were other ways that activists tried to signal their cohesion, that they were on the same page despite their multifarious concerns, like wearing the color yellow, for example. And so that is also a potential strength. of the current wave of protests.

What do you make of, I mean, I asked Kate about this, how Republican leaders have responded, calling these hate America rallies, not protest rallies. Yeah, well, I think there's something to Kate's response, which is that they wouldn't be responding so vociferously if they didn't, first of all, hear the message. They're not ignoring it. And I think that that says something about the loudness of that message. And it's how it merits attention. And so I think that activists and their supporters can read those detractions as kind of validation.

But, you know, we'll see what unfolds in the coming weeks. You know, attention does not equal concessions. Attention does not equal a lack of repression. And so, you know, I think it's a little early to tell what, if anything, will amount from that rhetoric. What do you see, we just have a couple of minutes left. What do you see happening here? Michael said something interesting, which is that there are people who perhaps wouldn't normally be part of this because of the risks of speaking out who are now doing that. Do you see something growing in your country? I mean, well, the size of these protests was pretty remarkable, especially

given the seemingly slow start to mobilize movements during this second administration. I mean, I remember in the early days of the second administration, journalists were contacting me, asking me, hey, Lisa, where are the protests? Like, we expected there to just be this, like, a deluge of people in the streets and we're not seeing it. And we did eventually. And absolutely, this past weekend was enormous. And so, you know, just in terms of sheer numbers, I think there are signs of increasing resistance. But I want to stress that the size of protests is not all that matters. Like, of course, it is one of the most visible signs, but the composition of the crowd is really important, which we've talked about, and costlier signals like these people who

are taking risks to their reputations, you know, especially also not just Republicans showing up, but when low-income folks show up, when marginalized racial groups show up, this sends a louder message than when people protest whom, you know, who we would normally expect to be protesting, who are protesting at a lower cost and risk to themselves. And so, yeah, I see movement in terms of size and composition of crowds. Lisa, good to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Lisa Mueller teaches political science at McAllister College.

She is the author of The New Science of Social Change, Modern Handbook for Activists. She was in St. Paul, Minnesota. You've been listening to the current podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to you. to cbc.ca slash podcasts.