The Current - Order of Canada: Honouring a life in diplomacy

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

Two long-serving Canadian diplomats — Don Campbell and Alex Bugailiskis — have been named to the Order of Canada. Campbell helped negotiate the first North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), while Bugailiskis served as ambassador to countries including Syria, Cuba and Italy, and played a key role in the resettlement of Syrian refugees. They reflect on their decades of diplomatic service — and how Canada’s role in the world has changed.

Welcome to the Dudes Club, a brotherhood supporting men's health and wellness. Established in the Vancouver downtown Eastside in 2010, the Dudes Club is a community-based organization that focuses on indigenous men's health, many of whom are struggling with intergenerational trauma, addiction, poverty, homelessness, and chronic diseases. The aim is to reduce isolation and loneliness and for the men to regain a sense of pride and purpose in their lives. As a global health care company, Novo Nordisk is dedicated to driving change for a healthy world. It's what we've been doing since 1923. It also takes the strength and determination of the communities around us, whether it's through disease

awareness, fighting stigmas and loneliness, education, or empowering people to become more active. Novo Nordisk is supporting local changemakers because it takes more than medicine to live a healthy life. Leave your armor at the door. Watch this paid content on CBC Gem. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is the current podcast. This week we are highlighting some of the remarkable people who are newly appointed to the Order of Canada. Today we are meeting two senior diplomats who were recognized for their services to

Canada on the world stage. First up, Don Campbell. He served as ambassador to Korea and Japan and as deputy minister of both foreign affairs and international trade. He was Prime Minister Jean Chrétien's personal representative at G8 summits and a senior negotiator in the talks that led to the first North American free trade agreement. He's in our Vancouver studio. Good morning and congratulations. Don Campbell Good morning and thank you very much.

You've had many awards over your career. What does this one mean to you? This is a very important award for me because first it recognizes my contribution to Canada and to Canadian public policy. But more important for me, I think it is recognizing the contribution and the role of the public service in Canada.

We have a professional public service that serves Canada extraordinarily well. And I think that while most Canadians are aware of it, they don't appreciate or think often enough about that contribution and the importance of that in the building of this country. Now you played a key role in creating many of the trade agreements that Canadians have taken

for granted for years. When you were initially negotiating them, what were people hoping to achieve? Well, Canada is a trading nation. We've always been dependent for a significant proportion of our gross national product on exports and on imports. And the idea of breaking down barriers to that was important in terms of Canadian prosperity, in terms of Canadian jobs, and in terms of Canadian prosperity, in terms of Canadian jobs and in terms of Canadian

growth. In the 1980s, there was a vision spearheaded obviously by our Prime Minister Brian Mulrooney for a free trade agreement with the United States, which then became a free trade agreement with Canada, United States and Mexico to break down those barriers even further and we were immensely successful in that. We also were very much involved in multilateral trade agreements which were designed really to bring other countries and this was particularly important for lesser developed countries into the world trading system. And as you say, you were successful in getting the NAFTA agreement. What was the hardest thing though about getting that yes with the US, Mexico and Canada? Well, I think the harder agreement was actually the predecessor of that, which was the Canada-US

free trade agreement, which was concluded in 1988. And of course, we had an election that was fought on that. The difficulty in that agreement was we had a vision for a prosperous North American continent and the Americans at that time saw it very much as a settlement of specific irritants. They didn't have the vision that we had. When we came to NAFTA, the inclusion of Mexico, it was obviously more complicated negotiation because we had three countries at different stages of development, but it went in a way much more smoothly than the first agreement did. Danielle Pletka Were you ever worried that Canada could become

too reliant on the US or that Canadian jobs would be shipped south? No, I was never worried. I was more concerned that jobs would be created in Canada. It wasn't a question of shipping jobs south in any way, shape or form. There were those in the United States who believed that. Ross Perot, who was a candidate in the US presidential election, talked about the giant sucking sound of jobs to Mexico. And that in an actual fact that idea of jobs being lost to free trade agreements is,

I don't want to say it's a myth, but it's highly, highly over exaggerated. Most of those jobs were lost or changed as a result of the transformation of the workforce. The technology really was responsible probably for seven out of every ten of those so-called job losses. But it's a myth that has persisted and there obviously are anecdotal stories which are true factories moving and things happening. The purpose of the agreement was to make us all more prosperous. It is true that we became somewhat too comfortable in our North American envelope and that we have not been aggressive enough in world markets, but we have more recently signed the comprehensive

CPTPP with a dozen Asian countries. We have SETA, which is an agreement with Europe. So there are the international mechanisms for our relationships, our trade relationships, our economic relationships with those countries is in place. It's just that we have to take advantage. Because at the end of the day, governments can build the bridge, but it is up to Canada and the Canadian private sector and Canadians to take advantage of those. Now, you alluded to recent developments and of course you're talking about US President Donald Trump who now says NAFTA was a terrible deal and that the new version, CUSMA, is also

bad that Canada is taking advantage of the US. I mean, what's your response to that? The idea that the United States has been taking advantage of is quite frankly risible. The renegotiated NAFTA looks remarkably like the first NAFTA, which he then called the greatest agreement ever. So beyond the hyperbole of all of this, there are legitimate concerns. You've got a populist movement, you know, the masses of people who are upset at their political elites, who have promised economic prosperity. That hasn't all happened. We're in a very difficult situation. And it's much,

the situation is much broader than just President Trump and the United States. The movement of nativism is something that is prevailing today and the international rules-based system is under significant threat. And how it is. Well, it is, and particularly from Donald Trump. You've sat at a lot of negotiating tables. What approach would you take in dealing with Trump if you were sitting at the table? Well, I'm rather relieved that I'm not sitting at the table. But sitting at the table, we have one of the advantages that we have in Canada is we have a very experienced professional public service, foreign service. The challenge

can be at the political level in the United States when politicians try to be negotiators. So you know, I can't give any particular advice other than, you know, stand firm, patience and see the process through. Okay. Now, Canada agreed at the end of last month to back off the new digital services tax. The White House and a number of Canadian observers described it as caving. Do you think they caved? No, I think that is – I am not party to the negotiations, but I'm sure that that is part of a larger picture, which has not all unveiled itself as yet.

Okay, and Donald Trump has also been critical of Canada's supply management system. We heard from farmers this week on this show who were worried about losing the stability that it provides. Do you think Canada should consider giving it up to get a deal with the US? Well, I grew up on a dairy farm but by the time my family sold the farm the quota, which was the right to produce milk, was worth more than the farm, the cows, the equipment and everything. It was a system that had important beginnings, but I think that we are we are long past the situation where we should have a monopolistic

situation for dairy, for poultry and for eggs. Why is that? Well, first of all, we are a pariah on the international scene. This is not just the United States issue. This is an issue with the Europeans. It's an issue with the Australians. It's an issue with the New Zealanders. It's an issue with everyone.

And what we are prevented from doing by virtue of our system, we are prevented from exporting. Canada should be one of the top three dairy product exporters in the world. Instead, we're comfortable in a declining market in Canada. We're now down to less than 10,000 dairy farmers. There were 140,000 dairy farmers in 1940. I remember a long time ago, the Canadian head of the National Retail Council said, do you

realize there are more bureaucrats involved in supply management than there are farmers? And I think there's a certain truth to that. So I – it would be very difficult and I'm not calling for the dismantling of this today or tomorrow, but for I think for good Canadian reasons. We need to get back. We moved on the Canadian wheat board, which was controversial at the time. We don't have supply management for pork or for beef or for other agricultural products. And I don't think that the changes in the system are going to bring a wave of unfair

competition as is suggested. And my reasons for thinking we need significant change in all of this really is for very strong Canadian reasons and for the export markets that are denied to us around the world. And it's got very little to do with the United States. Yeah. I think some dairy farmers might push back on the idea that there are more bureaucrats than dairy farmers. But moving on, as someone who helped build the rules-based order and the order which we've lived with for decades and many of us assumed that would be here for much longer, what has it been

like watching it being so challenged or even arguably dismantled? Well, obviously it's very disappointing to me to see this happen. You know, the countries suffering the most are those in the earlier stages of development, the middle level countries for whom the rule of law is very important. We need to, I can't say we're going to replace it tomorrow. We're going to go through at least a decade of significant turmoil, but I think that adapting the international system, it'll take a significant period of time. It's not quite comparable, but if you look back in the period in the 1930s, period of great protectionism, you had the Schmooze-Holley Act that put tariffs on everybody.

And finally, people saw the light, the United States saw the light. And from all of that emerged the post-war institutions, the Bretton Woods institutions. Now they're probably not fit for purpose any longer because you've got a lot of different players. China was not a player at that stage of the game. There's a whole world out there. United States is only involved in less than 25% of world trade today, a much smaller proportion and that will continue to decline.

So I think there needs to be a rebuilding exercise, but how, when, how and who is going to be, I think, the challenge for the next decade. Danielle Pletka Right. Now, the US may account for just a quarter of world trade, but of course it's hugely important to Canada. Richard Wagner Exactly. Danielle Pletka I wonder what worries you most about Canada's future on the world stage right now? Well I am actually not that worried. I've been an eternal optimist and I remain an optimist because I think that Canada in

terms of getting its act together, you know, taking steps in terms of our own economy, our own infrastructure, our own inter-provincial trade, our outlook. Trade will always flow. We need the world, but the world needs us as well. So I'm not as pessimistic as a lot of people are in terms of where we're going to be. But we need to do a lot more in terms of research and development, in terms of infrastructure, in terms of education, and I think we're up to the task. Nice to hear some optimism. Thanks so much for speaking with me today.

You're most welcome. Don Campbell is one of the latest appointees to the Order of Canada, this country's highest civilian honour. He played a key role in negotiating the first North American free trade agreement with the U.S. and Mexico and served as Deputy Minister of both Foreign Affairs and International Trade. Welcome to the Dudes Club, a brotherhood supporting men's health and wellness. Established in the Vancouver downtown Eastside in 2010, the Dudes Club is a community-based organization

that focuses on indigenous men's health, many of whom are struggling with intergenerational trauma, addiction, poverty, homelessness, and chronic diseases. The aim is to reduce isolation and loneliness, and for the men to regain a sense of pride and purpose in their lives. As a global healthcare company Novo Nordisk is dedicated to driving change for a healthy world. It's what we've been doing since 1923. It also takes the strength and determination of the communities around us whether it's

through disease awareness, fighting stigmas and loneliness, education or empowering people to become more active. Novo Nordisk is supporting local changemakers because it takes more than medicine to live a healthy life. Leave your armor at the door. Watch this paid content on CBC Gem. This message comes from Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on a Viking longship with

thoughtful service, destination-focused dining and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. With a variety of voyages and sailing dates to choose from, now is the time to explore Europe's waterways. Learn more at Viking.com. With me now in studio in Toronto is another Order of Canada appointee with a distinguished diplomatic career. Alex Bugaliskis served as ambassador to Syria, Cuba, Poland, and Italy. She also played a key role in the resettlement of 40,000 Syrian refugees and was chief negotiator of the Canadian EU strategic partnership agreement signed in 2016. She is the current chair of the United Nations

University Institute for Water, Environment and Health. And we actually got to know each other during her last posting in Rome. Good morning, Alex. So nice to see you. Lovely to see you. First off, congratulations. What did you see you. Good morning, Megan. Lovely to see you.

First off, congratulations. What did you think when you got the call from the Governor General's office? I don't think there's a better word in the English language than gobsmacked. I just love that word. I was quite shocked. Shocked because I discovered that this had been going on for possibly three to four years. The process is rather long, and nobody told me. I thought that was amazing, including. I didn't know they could keep a secret in Ottawa. Exactly, that was the biggest shock. Then, of course, the second point, and it's one I think that Don Campbell spoke to so very eloquently, I had the privilege of working for 40 years with amazing colleagues,

many of whom have done as much and much more than I, and I thought, well, why me? And so I started to be a bit equivocal. And this lovely gentleman from the Governor General's office explained that the letters indicated not only the what, but the how. And it's very true. I mean, I took my management duties duties very seriously and it's a tough job, particularly abroad. And that's where I think you face a lot of difficulties. Anyway, I've helped mentor and it's been wonderful to see a number of my former employees moving up the scales. So I accepted. And I accepted it on behalf of all of those. If you go through the list, most of those diplomats that have been nominated on Campbell

were deputy ministers. So it's nice to see them looking at some of the others like ourselves. Yeah, it is. Now, if I have the math right, you started your career in the Foreign Service in the 1980s. I did. Can you talk to me about what the world looked like to the young diplomat that you were then? Yes. I mean, I think young people will be very frightened by this example. I think one of the first demands I had coming into the department was a typewriter, an electric typewriter, not manual. No, seriously.

And it's very telling that one of my female colleagues came over and asked if they could borrow it after hours. And I said, well, don't you have typewriters? I don't want anybody to know I can type. So that was the first thing. Because you were one of the first female. We were about 20%, I think, at that stage. It's also kind of a headier. I mean, we're still in the Cold War, but the signs are that this is coming to a conclusion and this is a huge opportunity. And I think the first area that I would speak about is when we went

for the Security Council non-permanent seat in 1988. It was the first time Canada had to really campaign. It was always kind of accepted that every 10 years we would take it. But things were starting to change at the UN. Not only was it your contribution to the UN, but what were you doing for the members of those countries? So we developed quite an intricate campaign and I've been interviewed by a couple of PhD doctorate students who really thought it quite fascinating. But we won that on the first round with a huge majority. And the reason I mentioned that is that Canada was seen in high regard and it provided us

an opportunity to really play just at the moment when, you know, the Berlin Wall was starting to fall and the opportunities were enormous, we thought, for the growth of democracy. And I'll give two examples. I was involved with the Namibia independence. That was probably singularly one of the best moments in my career to be able to see the importance of the democratic franchise, seeing men carrying their mothers on their shoulders to vote for the first time in 70 or 80 years. And realizing something that we took for granted as Canadians to be able to exercise that franchise, how important it was.

And then because of that, I also went into El Salvador during the peace process. It was a 12-year civil war and Canadians were very well represented in the military and we were able to be able to end that war peacefully and to start Salvador onto its process of democracy. So it was a heady time. Yeah. And young officers like mine, like me, were given lots of rope. Well, different times now. I mean, Canada obviously had failed to win a Security Council seat twice in 2010 and 2020.

I mean, what does that say about our position now? It says something about Canada, but it also says something about the world. I mean, back in our time, we had 150 countries, now over 200. Many, and it's a very positive sign that many countries have risen in importance, particularly in Asia with their economies. So it's a multipolar world and it's been a bit more difficult and challenging. I do think Canada, and I would say that particularly in the last 10-15 years, hasn't had the profile in the UN that we've had before. Our peacekeeping operations have diminished and there's been some good reasons

for that. But we're still the, you know, one of the largest donors and we always pay on time, in fact, early. It is a sad commentary though that overall the UN apparatus, and Dawn again mentioned this, is in deep need of reform and it is in our interest, I think, to take a leadership role in that reform. And, I mean, what kind of leadership would you like to see? What kind of Canada would you like to see in this new context, this new global reordered context? Well, we really, the first order of magnitude, of course, is focusing on our own economy.

And I think the Prime Minister is right. We need to be able to speak from a position of strength. One of the reasons of the golden age of diplomacy back in the 60s under Pearson was the fact that we were the fifth or sixth largest economy in the world and the fourth largest army. So, building ourselves is going to be able to allow us to have a stronger foreign policy. But I do think we cannot forget the values. The values that we have propagated are interests. There isn't a difference. Our interest in rule of law, our interest in human rights, our interest in territorial

integrity is also part of our security and defense moving forward. And I think even as we're building Canada, we must continue to build our multilateral presence, our partnerships. And I do think I see that. We've started to really reinvest. Now, you've been an ambassador in two European countries. You led negotiations on the strategic partnership Canada signed with the EU in 2016. What opportunities do you see there for further cooperation? Oh it's enormous. I mean this was the sister agreement to the trade agreement, the CETA, but what we're finding is that

there's even more enormous potential for partnership on the political and security side. There was just a recent summit, the Canada-EU summit, and I was very happy to see that that agreement had actually been enhanced and we were now looking at new areas of cooperation from critical minerals to security and to artificial intelligence. We are very like-minded obviously with the Europeans and I think the partnerships there are well-grounded and well-served by both the trade and I think the partnerships there are well grounded and well served by both the trade and political agreements.

So enormous potential and I think we're going to have increasing opportunity to show that leadership together. Now we've seen the US dismantling its international aid system. The UK is also pulling back to pay for defence spending. As someone who, when you were in Rome, you also served as representative to the World Food Program there. What do you think the consequences will be? I like to see in every crisis an opportunity and I guess on the positive side, and this

is a big if, I mean if Canada can maintain its level and even grow international development assistance, and I think this is very key, we have enormous opportunity to be able to influence the direction of that aid on humanitarian as well as on development. But I do share your fundamental concerns, dismantling of USAID, let alone the UK also pulling back on its funding, and it's always been a leader in this area. So we need to lead by example by not reducing even despite the challenges we have on the cuts and the debt. Okay, we don't have much time, but I want to circle back to the beginning of your career. And what advice after this long illustrious career that you've had,

do you have for this new generation of diplomats dealing with these big international challenges? I'm really happy to know that the department's undergone a transformation process. It's not widely known, but it is serious. And I think it's giving hope to young people who have joined the department to know, first of all, what has really grown has been red tape and there is a desperate need to cut through that because it just makes the ability to be innovative, creative and to take risks enormously challenging.

And I think there is newfound hope in that regard. They also have to understand that this is lifelong learning now. Unlike us old geezers where we could kind of manage a whole career on our degrees, they have to be going in for upgrading training. And that means outside the department. I'd also advise them, and that's our biggest weakness perhaps, we're diplomats when we're abroad, when we come back we kind of seem to lose that, and we don't reach out as much as we should to the other government departments.

I mean, good foreign policy is grounded on interests, domestic interests, and I think we need to have more blood flowing in and out of the department. And that is starting as well. Danielle Pletka Alex, thanks so much. Pleasure to talk to you. Alex Bugaliskis Thank you so much, Naked. Danielle Pletka Alex Bugaliskis is among the latest inductees to the Order of Canada. She is a long-serving Canadian diplomat and now chair of the United Nations University Institute for Water, Environment and Health. Order of Canada. She is a long-serving Canadian diplomat and now chair of the United Nations

University Institute for Water, Environment and Health. You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.