The Current - Pope Francis remembered for bringing the church closer to the people it serves

Episode Date: April 21, 2025

Pope Francis, leader of the Catholic Church since 2013, has died at the age of 88. Widely regarded as a progressive reformer, he sought to modernize the church and steer it away from rigid doctrine �� making it more inclusive to the needs of the marginalized. Guest host Dave Seglins spoke to CBC’s Megan Williams and Christopher White of the National Catholic Reporter about the legacy Francis leaves behind — including his historic apology for Canada’s residential school system.

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Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Those were the cheers of the faithful yesterday at St. Peter's Square in the Vatican as Pope Francis appeared on the balcony and waved to the crowds on Easter Sunday. It would turn out to be his last public appearance.

Pope Francis died today at 7.35 a.m. Vatican time at the age of 88. The first Latin American pontiff was known for bringing change to the papacy. The CBC's Megan Williams is in Rome and she joins us from there. Good morning. Good morning, Dave. What is the mood in Rome after this announcement? Well, I think of surprise. I wouldn't call it shock because I think people were well aware that the Pope was not well and probably did not have that long to live and deep sadness this is a pope who who was

Meaningful not only to Catholics and I'm always struck by this when I go to st Peter's Square and cover various events and you know there there are Christian faithful there and Catholic followers, but there are also a lot of tourists there. I think unlike any other pope that I, you know, I've been here for a long time and have been here with three, a total of three popes, but I think that Francis somehow spoke a language, cared about things that resonated beyond the Catholic Church. And I'm always struck speaking to tourists who are not Christian or Muslim or of other faiths saying how meaningful he is to them, his message of care for migrants, the marginalized,

the poor, the overlooked. I think those messages really traveled far and wide. And even today, seeing people in the square, thousands are pouring in. And some of them are carrying cross, and a lot of them aren't. They're coming to just be here to pay their private tributes to Pope Francis. Now this news is new, but so far you've been tracking this. What's the reaction been from around the world?

Well again, I think, you know, this is a pope, I mean world leaders, everybody is talking about his humanity, his champion for rights of migrants. We saw that to the very end. He spoke about that yesterday during his Urbi at Urbi address. He greeted people. He was very weak. He could hardly lift his hand to wave from his balcony to the crowds below. So someone else read the biannual political address. But as always, he mentions the migrants, marginalized poor.

And I think that the global response to him is to that message, to that message of inclusion, of welcome. He was a pope who wasn't that interested in doctrine, unlike some previous popes. What he really wanted to do was bring people in and make them feel welcome. So I think the international response to that, to his death, is the recognition of that message. So the official announcement came that he died at 7.35 a.m. your time. How was the announcement made? It was made by Cardinal Kevin Farrell, who made a video announcement, which may be the first time that that was communicated, the death of a pope is communicated by video, and it announced that the Bishop of Rome had

died. I mean, the pope, as well as being the leader of the Catholic Church, is also the Bishop of Rome. And coincidentally, it's Rome's birthday today, more than 2,000 years old, of course. But as well as being leader of the Catholic Church, he really did feel that he was Bishop of Rome. I won't say he was embarrassed by being the leader of the Catholic Church, that would be a stretch, but he really felt that his main role was something less grandiose, something more humble. It reflected

the fact that he was a pastor. He was somebody who really liked being around the people. And despite the fact that he comes from a South American country, Argentina, of course he has Italian roots, but he'd never actually lived in Rome. He'd never been part of the Vatican hierarchy before he was elected Pope. But Romans all talk about him as being very much a part of their city. When I was talking to the taxi driver coming down here and various people in the square, and they're all saying, you know, he was one of us. We've lost one of us. So he had the capacity to make people feel that he really was like everybody else and he cared about local people as well as, you know, guiding the whole apparatus of the Vatican and the Catholic Church. I think here in Canada, Pope Francis will be remembered in part for how he dealt with

the history of residential schools. Can you remind us of his legacy on that front? Yeah. I mean, of course, three years ago, there were delegations, First Nations who came to Rome to meet with him, urge him to come to Canada and apologize to indigenous peoples, which he did several months later. He came in March. They came in March to Rome and then in the summer of 2022. And I was on the plane with the Pope and some cardinals during that tour and watched how he went from place to place apologizing to various groups. Here at the Vatican, I was aware just through talking to various contacts that not everybody

in the Vatican hierarchy was keen for the Pope to make that trip his health was not great He'd canceled other international trips that summer, but he really pushed for it. It was very important to him he understood I I think unlike any other pope in the past the The damage that was done by colonialism colonial crimes in in the case of Canada the the damage that was done by colonialism, colonial crimes in the case of Canada, the residential school system, he got it. And he understood that that was a very important move

to make for healing between the Catholic Church and indigenous peoples. But above all, healing for Indigenous peoples. I mean, I remember talking to people during that, what he called the Penitential Tour, Indigenous elders who were crying with tears streaming down their face and saying, they never thought they would see the day

when the head of the Catholic Church would travel to them to apologize. And I know not everybody, not all Indigenous people felt that it was enough or that it even held a lot of significance for them, but a lot of the elders did who, you know, who remain Catholic to this day. So I think that that's really a highlight of Pope Francis's legacy. Meghan, we're going to leave it there.

Thank you. Thank you. That's Meghan Williams, CBC's Rome correspondent. In the fall of 2001, while Americans were still grappling with the horror of September 11th, envelopes started showing up at media outlets and government buildings filled with a white lethal powder, anthrax. But what's strange is if you ask people now

what happened with that story, almost no one knows. It's like the whole thing just disappeared. Who mailed those letters? Do you know? From Wolf Entertainment, USG Audio, and CBC podcasts, this is Aftermath, the hunt for the anthrax killer, available now. Someone else who's watching today's events very closely, Christopher White is the Vatican correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter and he also joins us from Rome. Hello. Thank you, Dave.

Good to be with you. Remind us who Pope Francis was. Pope Francis was the first pope from the global south, the first Jesuit to ever be elected pope. I think it's fair to say that when he was elected 12 years ago, he shocked the church. His name was not one that many thought would emerge on that balcony as the next pope, and he certainly didn't want the job. But when he was elected and once he did appear people knew something was different that this was a pope that was going to have different priorities than the Catholic Church had seen in a long

time. He became one of the world's leading crusaders of migrants, a real defender of the right to migrate and for them to be protected and welcomed. He was a chief advocate for climate change, and inside the Catholic Church, he was a reformer who took care of a lot of business in 12 years' time, but also left a lot on the table to be completed by his successor. Why was it shocking? I think it was shocking because the Catholic Church had gone through a period of two popes, Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, an almost 40-year period where the real primary concerns of the church were doctrinal matters, specifically issues such as family

and sexual ethics. And Pope Francis was not a culture warrior, and he tried to rid the church of an impulse to be one. And that was a shock to the system for many. It delighted thousands and millions of Catholics and non-Catholics alike, but inside his own church it also caused some turmoil. And so I think that's something that over the past 12 years has been an ongoing process to sort of reckon with this new direction of the papacy. Now he chose the name Francis. What was he trying to signify with that name? Now, he chose the name Francis. What was he trying to signify with that name? Well, one of his close friends, a cardinal from Brazil that was seated next to him when

he was elected and in the Sistine Chapel in 2013, leaned over to him and said, do not forget the poor. And then soon after that, he was asked, what name will you take? And he said, Francis, really wanting to draw inspiration from the 13th century saint of Assisi, who prioritized the poor and being concerned about nature and many of these sort of themes that we saw emerge and sort of rise to the top during Francis's pontificate. And I think there's a deeper meaning though. Francis of Assisi also had a vision where he was told, go and repair my church. And when Francis took over the reins of the Catholic Church in 2013, it's fair to say that it was in shambles. It was plagued by all sorts of mishandling of clerical sex abuse. The Vatican's finances were a wreck, and in general, the church's sort of position in the eyes of the world was quite poor.

And Francis, I think, has given the Church very much a PR makeover over the last dozen years. Well, as much as it was shocking and he arrived with a new set of priorities, what were the expectations of his papacy in the beginning, and did he meet them? I think it's fair to say that certainly unfinished business to be done. The expectations was for him to be a reformer, but I think most people thought that reform would be inside the church, things like finances and abuse. And he certainly did that. But I don't think anyone expected the extent that Francis would really capture the imagination of the world by becoming this pope that traveled to over 60 countries, who really was a great pope of gestures, who often spoke by his deeds rather than his words.

And that was something that I don't think many of the cardinals had in mind when they cast their vote for him. They saw him to be a serious man of governance, which he was, but I think it's fair to say that he was very much more interested in the outward-facing work of the Church and the world around it, rather than what was happening inside the Vatican. What kind of resistance did he face from within the Catholic Church itself? Well, I think it's fair to say the resistance to Francis has been a minority voice, but it's been a loud voice, particularly in the Anglosan sphere, often funded by groups and organizations with deep pockets.

And I think that sort of resistance can be seen in the pews, but also here in Rome by more conservative leaning cardinals who have been keen to see the papacy reverse course and go back to a papacy that is much more interested in things like doctrinal matters than interested in pastoral engagement with the world around it. I think a lot of Canadians will remember Pope Francis in terms of receiving a delegation of residential school survivors from Canada at the Vatican and then his trip here to Canada in July of 2022, apologizing for the Catholic Church's role in residential schools. What would you say the significance of that apology was in the history of Pope Francis's

legacy? Well, I think in general it's tough to get popes to say, I'm sorry. I mean, the Catholic Church is used to sort of looking at issues and from a sort of magisterial perspective where no one challenges its authority. And of course, popes have apologized for various things. Pope John Paul II and Benedict repeatedly apologized for abuse. But for Pope Francis to make this grand gesture, I traveled with him on that trip to Canada in 2022. And one of the remarkable things about that was it came after a period

where the pope had had serious mobility issues he had started using a wheelchair regularly but people travel was over uh... and instead he said he did not let that you know set him back uh... he went to canada you know he used a wheelchair to get around it because he thought it was important to be there to encounter people. And I think that sort of willingness to touch the wounds of those who were sick or hurting or marginalized, as demonstrated by his visit to Canada in 2022, is certainly, you know, why he was beloved by so many.

Pope Francis had met briefly, I understand, yesterday with the US Vice President JD Vance, a Catholic. What do we know about that meeting? What was a brief meeting? I mean, for days the Vatican had not confirmed whether or not it would happen. So JD Vance arrived in Rome on Friday and he attended services at the Vatican for Good Friday and then was here again on Saturday for meeting with the Pope's top diplomats. And then yesterday we received notice that he stopped by very briefly to exchange Easter greetings with the Pope. So we don't have a readout of that meeting. We know it was quite short. You know, from the photos and video clips that have emerged, to me it looked like the meeting between a

son and a grandfather-type figure. J.D. Vance at 40 years old, Pope Francis at 88 years old. These two men couldn't be more different. One of the leading champions of migrants in the world, and then in J.D. Vance, one of the fiercest anti-immigrant campaigners, having this tete-a-tete at the Vatican. But I think it was Easter Sunday. I don't imagine much policy or theology was discussed. I think it was a pat on the back and a chance to wish him well.

Ultimately, Christopher, what do you think the legacy will be of Pope Francis? I think it's a pope that reshift to the priorities of the Catholic Church, that brought it into the modern world unafraid to dialogue with those around it, whether it be other religions, others' faith, or other Christian traditions, and a pope that really prioritized mercy and outreach more than anything else. We see this, as I said earlier, you know, through his gestures. I mean, the number of images that I can think of of him reaching out to disfigured individuals, to the sick. We saw him just a few days ago, as sick as he was, making a visit to a Roman prison on

Holy Thursday to greet 70 prisoners. I think that sort of reorientation of the Catholic Church's priorities will be his lasting legacy. Pete Slauson Attention now shifts to the selection of a new pope. What can we expect from this upcoming conclave? 11 I think it will be a referendum on Pope Francis' legacy. The roughly 135 cardinals who will meet

in Rome over the coming weeks will be discussing the needs of the church, and they will basically be asked to decide, do we want to continue on this path of reform, of a church that is more horizontal, less vertical, less interested in power, more interested in the participation of all of its members? Or do we want to have a course correction and go back to a church that is more known for what it is opposed to

rather than what it's trying to say yes to? I think Pope Francis has appointed roughly 80% of the men who will elect his successor, and now in this moment we will see if these are men who want to carry forth his vision. Pete And what's your sense? Jared I think it's, you know, just from a sheer numbers game, it's hard to imagine a complete course correction. I think when they get into the room, they will have about

10 days of closed-door meetings to discuss the needs of the church and what they would like to see in the next pope. And I think they'll talk about a profile rather than a particular person or persons. But I think when they get there, they're going to say, look, I mean, this has been a successful papacy. How do we build upon this? I think Pope Francis was a man of surprises, a bit of a maverick, and there might be an appetite for someone who was less surprising than Francis. But I think Pope Francis was a man of surprises, a bit of a maverick, and there might be an appetite for someone who was less surprising than Francis, but I think they'll pick someone that probably shares his same priorities.

What's at stake in the selection of this new pope, do you think? Well, I think what's at stake is the future of the Catholic Church, whether or not the Catholic Church in an age of increased secularization, whether or not the Catholic Church in an age of, you know, increased secularization, whether or not the Catholic Church wants to be open to the world around it, whether or not it wants to, as Francis did, really emphasize encounter, or does it want to be more interested in drawing lines in the sand and focusing on issues of dogma and doctrine? I think Francis was trying to steer the Church away from that, and what's at stake is whether or not the Church will continue in that sort of more inclusive, more welcoming direction.

And the fact that he chose so many of the men who will now select the next pope, do you have a sense that it continues in his tradition? I do think these are men who have been deeply influenced by Pope Francis. These are not, you know, all out of the same mold. But I think Pope Francis was not interested in whether someone was conservative or progressive to kind of use, you know, political categories. Pope Francis wanted pastors, people that were interested in hearing the needs of the people and then making decisions based on that. And I think these are roughly men that sort of share that

same value system as Francis. And I think it's much more likely that they'll pick a candidate and a pope who shares those same priorities as Francis than one that wants to initiate a course correction. Christopher, thank you for making time to reflect on his life and legacy. Happy to be with you.

Christopher White is the Vatican correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter. You've been listening to The Current Podcast. My name is Matt Galloway. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you soon.