The Current - Prorogation angers father who lost son to online sextortion

Episode Date: January 10, 2025

Carl Burke’s teenage son Harry died by suicide shortly after he fell victim to sexual extortion online. But proposed legislation aimed at addressing dangers on social media — the Online Harms Act — may now not become law because parliament has been prorogued until March. Burke tells Matt Galloway that playing politics shouldn’t get in the way of protecting children. For Linda Debassige, grand council chief of the Anishinabek Nation, it’s an embarrassment for Canada that a bill to ensure clean drinking water for First Nations may also not pass.

This message comes from Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on a Viking longship with thoughtful service, destination-focused dining, and cultural enrichment on board and on shore. With a variety of voyages and sailing dates to choose from, now is the time to explore Europe's waterways. Learn more at Viking.com. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Matt Galloway and this is The Current Podcast. When Prime Minister Justin Trudeau stepped out of Rideau Cottage on Monday to announce his resignation, he also shut down Parliament. I advise the governor general that we need a new session of parliament. She has granted this request and the House will now be prorogued until March 24th.

Proroguing parliament means dozens of bills will now likely die, proposed legislation that could have changed people's lives. One of those bills is Bill C-63, known as the Online Harms Act. It was one of the Liberals' flagship pieces of legislation aimed at addressing content, harmful content in particular, on social media platforms, from online bullying to child pornography. Carl Burke is among the many parents who supported that bill. Last year, his son Harry was a victim of sexual extortion and Harry later died by suicide. Carl Burke is on PEI this morning. Carl, good morning.

Morning, Matt. How are you? I'm okay. You've been through a lot. How are you doing? Oh, not too bad, Matt. It's certainly a strain on myself or family, my wife or daughters, our older son as well. it's a surreal experience. You really don't have any idea until you lose a child, what it feels like. It just hurts every day. I can't imagine it.

Can you tell me a little bit about Harry and who he was? Yeah, Harry was a very exceptional young man. He was, well, he was handsome. And I mean, I know parents feel that way about their children. You know, it's sick. I was never one to talk about my kids. I just didn't figure anybody really wanted to listen. But yeah, no, Harry was very handsome.

Everybody knew Harry. He wasn't a secret in the community. He was out there. Everybody seen him. He communicated well with everyone. And when you did talk to Harry, he listened. He absorbed everything that he took in. And he was very respectful of everyone as well.

We still have kids coming to us today who say, Harry, help me. Like one young lady, for example, who moved into our community, was having trouble fitting in. Harry had taken her under his wing so that she did fit in and she did end up having friends and it changed her. If you don't mind me asking, and I know this is hard.

Yeah. What happened with him? Harry died in 2023 on April the 25th. The evening before Harry had come to me, he had received communication all day with an individual posing to be a girl around his age saying that she was from Nova Scotia. Harry communicated with her all day and they ended up developing a trust and they shared intimate images. After sharing the intimate images and Harry started to be extorted for money. We didn't know anything about extortion at the time. I was in the bedroom reading and Harry came to me and he said, Dad, I screwed up. I said, what do you mean by what happened? And then he proceeded to tell me about the day's events

and the intimate images. And we had talked to our children about this many times. It wasn't new. We didn't endorse sharing of anything like this, of course. We knew it was against the law and just not appropriate. The kids had a good understanding of it, but Harry was tricked. He was fooled. This person was looking for money and they said if you didn't send any money, then the images would be sent around to all your family, your friends. Harry was a patriot.

He was in the cadets for a number of years and then joined the reserves at 16 with the hopes that he would end up in Kingston, Ontario at the Royal Military College. So he had a commanding officer and the threat was also made that it would be sent to his commanding officer, at which point it would ruin his career. And they had actually even sent a message to Harry's mother if you can believe it saying that we're gonna ruin your son's life. As a result we sat at the table here as a family and come up with a plan that we would be talking with the RCMP in the morning but as far as we know this individual kept poking at Harry most of the evening. As a result, Harry felt that his life was over,

his career was over, and that meant everything to him. At some point during the night, Harry took his own life, and I found him the next morning in the garage. I'm sorry. Thank you. What did you want this bill to do, the Online Harms Act, so that other kids would not be put in that awful position that Harry found himself in? Well, we had all had hopes that the bill would create some accountability for the social media platforms, so that, like, presently, in my opinion, it's a bit of a wild west situation

With the social media platforms seems like anything goes and anything is allowed there are no rules or regulations So my hopes our hopes. I hope all parents hopes were that it would Hold these individuals accountable so that Hold these individuals accountable so that maybe a child would be saved. If anything, by having the bill out there, it would create more education, more awareness for everybody. Because like I said, in our situation, we had never heard about the term sex-dorsion or the extent of it. Very...

Like, we really, really, really hope that Some way this would be a start to make things different to see some changes take place And so now knowing that that's with Parliament being prorogued The bill as it stands is unlikely to go forward. What's your reaction? Well, our reaction is one of disappointment Well, our reaction is one of disappointment. Sometimes like to be honest, I'm angry about it because we're playing a game of politics here and the game of politics we're playing is with children's lives. I'm not sure if the government realized that or if they care. They had ample opportunity to have this bill put in to more development and to be passed,

to be discussed. I think at a time like this, it's when all the governments should sit together. Like whether you're red, whether you're green, whether you're blue, whatever color, that doesn't matter to me and it shouldn't matter to anybody else. It's a time for unity. It's a time for the governments to work together. If you don't like what I put down for a bill, maybe we can talk about what we should add to it, subtract to it, whatever. But we need to make it work. I can't have another family go through what we're going through right now because it will

affect your life, it will change your life forever, it will never be the same. And it's a difficult thing to get people to realize that in the positions that can make changes. What do you make of the controversy around this bill that, I mean, there are people, including some conservative lawmakers who have said that this threatens freedom of expression, for example. What do you make of that? Well, I think freedom of speech, I think the definition needs to be looked at. I'm not sure how many people are actually aware of what freedom of speech actually means.

I'm not an expert on freedom of speech. I know there's probably things in the bill that could have been done better, but again, that's the unity thing of talking about it. I believe in free speech, of course. I live in Canada. I'm very proud to be here. However, it's a different thing altogether. A separation of the bill into sections two and three

and keeping them together, I think, was the right thing to do because it focuses more on the children. But I did not see this bill in any way taking free speech away from anyone. What would you say to Pierre Pauliev, for example? He, if you believe the polls, could very

well be the next prime minister, he has expressed some of those concerns around this. And part of this is around the cost, but also he says that the bill, such as it is, he would not reintroduce it and go forward the way that it was presented. What would you say to Pierre Pauliev based on what you've gone through? Well, it's not a nice thing. And like I said, until you've gone through it, you had no idea. Go home and look at your children and pick one that you don't want to see or you're not going to see for the rest of your life.

Oh my goodness. Because that's all it is. You'll never see that child again for the rest of your life. Oh my goodness. Because that's all it is. You'll never see that child again for the rest of your life. So maybe he doesn't support the bill the way it is or was, but I pray that he can come up with another bill that's going to do similar or the same things. And I also pray that it's not political and that there's nothing that's going to be involved with money where people make decisions based on money because all too often it's the corporations that seem to run our countries

and make decisions for us. It's not the people. A child is a beautiful thing. You have your hopes, you have your dreams attached to that child. You watch them grow up. My wife carried Harry for nine months. My only job in this world was to protect my son, and I couldn't do it because of social media platforms and the lack of control and accountability around them. So if anybody can look me in the face and say, that's a good thing to take away a bill

that might protect a child, I'm sorry for you. Your family has been through so much, and this is not easy to talk about, but I really do appreciate you being willing to speak with us, and I wish you the very best. Well, thank you, Matt. It was a pleasure to talk about, but I really do appreciate you being willing to speak with us. And I wish you the very best. Well, thank you, Matt. It was a pleasure to talk to you and I appreciate it, the opportunity to be on your program.

Take care of yourself and your family. You as well. Carl Burke has been advocating for the online harms act. His son, Harry died by suicide after being sexually extorted. This message comes from Viking, committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on a Viking longship, with thoughtful service, destination-focused

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Another bill in jeopardy because of prorogation is bill C61. This is the first nations clean water act. It is a law that indigenous leaders have been pushing forward for years. In December, chief Chris Monius of the Niskanseka First Nation in Northern Ontario confronted the Prime Minister about the lack of clean water in his community.

2018 you stood here, promising us that we're going to get clean drinking water. We're on 10,900 days. That's 29 years, 10 months and 4 days of our boil water advisory. The longest in Canada. We're the poster boys and people of long-term drinking water. We don't see that in sight. The 1st of February will mark 30 years that that boil water advisory in Niskanika has been in place. Linda Dabosige is the Grand Council Chief

of the Anishinaabe Nation, which represents 39 First Nations in Ontario. She helped lead the negotiations on Bill C-61. Grand Chief, good morning to you. Good morning, Matt. When you hear Chief Monies speak about living without clean water for decades, what do you want people to understand

about what that's like? speak about living without clean water for decades. What do you want people to understand about what that's like? Well, Chief Munoz and I go back a long time for the average Canadian. It may be hard to fathom not being able to pour a glass of water out of the tap, to not be able to bathe your infant child in water, to not be able to brush your teeth from the infrastructure you have in your home and having to go out daily multiple times to go and fill up a jug of water to bring to your home to carry out daily life activity.

It's an embarrassment to this country. What was so significant about this bill in particular? Because as I mentioned, you led the code negotiations on this for the AFN, the Assembly of First Nations. What was it about this piece of legislation that you found would have made a real difference? and you led the code negotiations on this for the AFN, the assembly of first nations. What was it about this piece of legislation that you found would have made a real difference? Are there several pieces, former national chief and I were asked to help

in December of 2022. And we were able to, along with our colleagues, work through a process to look at what the elements of a bill would be. And we're supporting the National Chief to advocate for an expanded mandate at that time. So this particular bill, you know, it's not perfect. However, you know, one of the biggest fundamental things is having the government actually recognize the basic human right to clean and safe drinking water for first nations. Who do you blame for the death of the bill?

I blame the government as a whole. I mean, uh, you know, similar to the previous guest, uh, this is something that not should not be the subject of any political games that are being played out in the House, which is what we've seen. It's absolutely frustrating considering the state of our First Nations. So I blame all parties because this bill could have went efficiently through the government, the house of parliament's processes. But instead it was stalled at essentially every turn. Patty Hajdu, the minister of indigenous services sent us a statement that reads in part, members of

parliament had a critical opportunity to right an historic wrong by supporting bill C61 during a critical moment to do what was right. The NDP and the conservatives,, blocked the bill moving forward. Do you think she's right to just put the responsibility on the opposition here? In part, I absolutely agree. I also believe that the shenanigans that we've seen played out in the House over the last several months were a direct result of

the current party as well and their inability to work with others. Chief Mounias, we played a little bit of his comments earlier. He was at a recent AFN meeting in Ottawa and spoke to Minister Hajdu and the Prime Minister. Have a listen to some of Justin Trudeau's response. There is a lot of work to do. We recognize that. On boil water advisories, when we came into office, there were 109 boil water advisories in long-term boil water advisories across the country. We lifted 140 or so. We have stopped lots of short-term advisories from becoming long-term advisories. And on the 30 or so left, there is a plan and funding for all of them. This is a government that when it came into power, promised in 2015, the boil water advisories

on First Nations would be eliminated by 2023-2024. As of now, 147 have been lifted since 2015, but 31 are still in effect, including that one in Ashkanaga for decades. How do you assess the progress that the liberals have made on this? I believe the progress has been substantial, to be honest with you. Seven out of eight of my communities that I serve

have been lifted, but it's not lost on me that when the liberals came into government, there was a definite lack of support for on reserve drinking water and wastewater infrastructure by the government previous. And what we saw coming in was a direct result of decades of underfunding. Do you see that as, I mean, it goes back to what I asked you at the beginning, which is what

people don't know. Do you think that the politicians who are making these decisions understand what's at stake here? Do they understand what it's like to live without drinking water? I don't believe they do. I mean, they take water for granted themselves. I mean, they're all for granted themselves. I mean, they're

all the elite of our country and, you know, they have no problem, you know, pouring water out of the tap. They live excellent, you know, lives that are not consistent with poverty. The issue with First Nations drinking water, it's only ever been a policy. It's never been legislated to ensure sustainability and ensuring reliable funding for that, which is a fiduciary obligation of Canada. Do I have this right that you have a background in civil engineering? Civil engineering technology, yes. Civil engineering. So you understand some of the, I mean, I guess in

part, people are trying to understand why this is so difficult. These are hard problems and there has been progress that's been made, but why, is it about will or is it about something else that is preventing this issue from being solved in this country? It's a, you know, continuous, predictable,

stable funding. It's the government's failure in ensuring that minimum standards, even minimum standards across this country are met. And oftentimes they've alleged to support First Nations by Band-Aid solutions which don't ever work, and we come to the same situation where we see well water advisories in our communities. And so, you know, a lot of people will, you know, share that it's just a government problem. However, to share that it's just a government problem. However, there are also contractors at fault who have provided this service to many of our communities

through contractual arrangements. And so there are many complexities involved, especially when you're looking at details around infrastructure, engineering, source water, and this bill as well would have also provided source water protection and the ability for First Nations to be a part of that. I have to let you go, but very briefly, what would you say to people on the Nishantica First Nation who've been waiting for that water for decades now.

My sympathies and condolences first for the trauma and losses that the community has been inflicted with. But to no one understand, there are many leaders like me who continue to support this work so that communities like Mishkandika can have access to clean, safe drinking water. Grand Chief, I'm glad to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Linda Dabosige is the Grand Council Chief of the Anishinabek Nation, which represents 39 First Nations in the province of Ontario.